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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > N20, N26, B46, B48 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > My N20 died at 72k miles
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      02-16-2015, 04:32 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by f30luxline View Post
99% of things it measures are what a $4 torque android app can do via OBD II port. Maybe it's the same thing except a fancy built in display? The app does not provide oil pressure info though.
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      02-17-2015, 06:47 AM   #68
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True, it's not cheap. In Europe 700 Euros.
But I think it looks nice, I'm a bit of tech and gadget freak and a tweaker (as in life hacking etc not chemically (drugs) as the expression is in the US).
Comes with the job I guess (Marine engineer on a drilling rig). I like to see all data available. And on the flip side, $1000 is cheaper compared to a new engine
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      02-23-2015, 12:41 PM   #69
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From the original post it sounded like a oil pump from the start. Did I read correctly these engines have an oil pump with a plastic impeller? I have never like the sound of that.
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      02-23-2015, 01:34 PM   #70
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Anyone know the life expectancy of the oil pump? Just wondering if it's advisable and cost effective to replace it at say 60k for those planning on keeping the car long term.
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      02-23-2015, 06:35 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vader1 View Post
From the original post it sounded like a oil pump from the start. Did I read correctly these engines have an oil pump with a plastic impeller? I have never like the sound of that.
Where did you read that? I have an extremely difficult time believing that such a critical component would be plastic. The oil pump itself is conventional and of the same design BMW (and likely most others) used for years - a rotary vane.

Go to page 73 of the technical manual (p 79 of the PDF itself) found here - http://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesfor...BIMMERPOST.pdf - for details if you're curious.

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Originally Posted by USC2000 View Post
Anyone know the life expectancy of the oil pump? Just wondering if it's advisable and cost effective to replace it at say 60k for those planning on keeping the car long term.
Oil pumps are almost always "lifetime" parts. Perhaps the definition of lifetime has changed, but I can say with some confidence that you'll never need to worry about preventively replacing the pump, 200k miles and beyond.

Unfortunately, while the mechanism and style of the pump is nothing dramatic, it is placed at the flywheel side of the engine and driven by the counterbalance shafts, which are in (if I recall correctly) some kind of innovative arrangement. See the PDF above, same section. What this means is that the oil pump is a unit integral with the shafts, and the assembly is replaced together - see page 75 (p 81 of the PDF).

Here you can see the assembly: http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/F3...stem_oil_pump/

A $700 part, which isn't bad in itself, but obviously a very involved R&R.

The thing that strikes me is that BMW actually launched a recall involving the oil supply and the possibility of it becoming restricted. "The oil supply via the intake camshaft to the vacuum pump could become restricted. If this were to occur, the vacuum pump could fail due to lack of lubrication, resulting in a loss of power brake assist." Questionable, perhaps...
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      02-24-2015, 10:12 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4NoMore View Post
Where did you read that? I have an extremely difficult time believing that such a critical component would be plastic. The oil pump itself is conventional and of the same design BMW (and likely most others) used for years - a rotary vane.

Go to page 73 of the technical manual (p 79 of the PDF itself) found here - http://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesfor...BIMMERPOST.pdf - for details if you're curious.



..
I might have it confused with something about a waterpump. I could have sworn I read a thread somewhere about a pump with a plastic impeller.

I am new to BMW's so I have little no experience tinkering with them, only other makes.

The original post mention the delaer telling him there was metal and plastic bits all over so that was what triggered a vague recollection of threads about a pump (oil or water) with a plastic impeller. If neither pump has them, it would not be the first time I am wrong, or the last.

Last edited by vader1; 11-29-2016 at 04:08 PM..
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      02-24-2015, 10:34 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vader1
I might have it confused with something about a waterpump. I could have sworn I read a thread somewhere about a pump with a plastic impeller.

I am new to BMW's so I have little no experience tinkering with them, only other makes.

The original post mention the delaer telling him there was metal and plastic bits all over so that was what triggered a vague recolection of threads about a pump (oil or water) with a plastic impeller. If neither pump has them, it would not be the first time I am wrong, or the last.
Ah yes, plastic impellers became infamous in the E36 and to an extent E46 generations. The modern (N55/N20) electric water pumps seem to be much more mechanically robust; while I think it's fair to say that the impeller is plastic, that plastic is much further developed and may even be a composite (I think I read this but I'm not sure... it may be called out in the technical manual).

The junk found in OP's engine is collateral damage from the sudden failure of a camshaft at running speed. The story is that the oil pump "may have" failed, which to me sounds like they really don't know what happened. Again, the verbiage of the recall has me wondering if there's more trouble there than BMW let on about.
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      03-02-2015, 06:52 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronk View Post
UPDATE:

Some background info: I travel between the US and Canada frequently due to work. The breakdown happened in Canada. I originally bought the car when I was living in the US. BMW Canada is saying this is BMW USA's responsibility and BMW USA is pointing the finger at BMW Canada. Long story short: no one is doing anything.

BMW USA told me to have the car looked at by a stateside service center (I guess they don't trust the diagnostics done in Canada?). I'll be shipping the car back down to Seattle to have it looked at there. This has been confusing as heck.

As for what happened: I was told that the oil pump must have failed. I'm not sure why this took almost 7 hours to diagnose...but that's what I was told.
Hold up. I'm in Seattle and was just at BMW Seattle this morning! Anddd because of all the my-engine-blew-up threads lately, I asked my SA about it and sure enough, he said he had two N20s in the back needing engine replacement. One of which, has 70k miles. He also said it was because the cars were starved of oil.

Kronk, are you at BMW Seattle or Bellevue? Anyways, good luck, buddy and let me know how it goes!
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      03-02-2015, 07:54 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teapain View Post
Hold up. I'm in Seattle and was just at BMW Seattle this morning! Anddd because of all the my-engine-blew-up threads lately, I asked my SA about it and sure enough, he said he had two N20s in the back needing engine replacement. One of which, has 70k miles. He also said it was because the cars were starved of oil.

Kronk, are you at BMW Seattle or Bellevue? Anyways, good luck, buddy and let me know how it goes!


He's definitely talking about my car. I'm at BMW Seattle and I'm waiting to hear back from the Service Manager about the next steps in getting my car fixed. I'm very surprised to hear that there is another car with the same issue, I was told that mine was a one-off never before seen situation.

PM me if you have any more details!
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      03-03-2015, 11:58 AM   #76
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The N20 oil pump is substantially more complex than previous designs. It is a variable displacement pump, with the oil volume delivered per pump revolution actively controlled by shifting the position of the pump rotor housing. The complex design is a clever approach for improving fuel economy by only pumping as much oil as the engine needs at any given operating condition. Legacy oil pumps deliver the same amount of oil per revolution all the time, and a pressure relief valve just dumps excess flow back into the sump, wasting a portion of the power used to drive the oil pump. There is probably some failure mode where the movable housing in N20 oil pumps can get stuck in a minimum-delivery position, so the pump delivers less flow than the engine needs for safe operation at higher temperatures or power settings. Ideally that failure mode occurs very rarely, but it is sure to exist. Darned expensive collateral damage when it does, and incipient failure may be totally undetectable.
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      03-03-2015, 01:33 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teapain View Post
Hold up. I'm in Seattle and was just at BMW Seattle this morning! Anddd because of all the my-engine-blew-up threads lately, I asked my SA about it and sure enough, he said he had two N20s in the back needing engine replacement. One of which, has 70k miles. He also said it was because the cars were starved of oil.

Kronk, are you at BMW Seattle or Bellevue? Anyways, good luck, buddy and let me know how it goes!
How many miles were on the other N20?
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      03-03-2015, 06:48 PM   #78
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UPDATE:

I was told that BMW USA was willing to provide 25% towards the parts. The total repair cost with their "assistance" would be close to $14k (estimated). I'm obviously not happy with this, especially when I was told that this was the result of an oil pump that failed through no fault of my own.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I will be reaching out to BMW USA myself to see what they can do.
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      03-05-2015, 01:49 PM   #79
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OP and Kronk... where was your car made? Germany or South Africa? I am curious to know when people do have major problems like these, if there is any pattern as to where the car was built. That would be helpful to know.
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      03-05-2015, 05:33 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo
OP and Kronk... where was your car made? Germany or South Africa? I am curious to know when people do have major problems like these, if there is any pattern as to where the car was built. That would be helpful to know.
All the engines come from Germany. South Africa only does vehicle assembly.
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      03-06-2015, 09:17 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4NoMore View Post
All the engines come from Germany. South Africa only does vehicle assembly.
Yes I know that, but can there be a problem during assembly? Honest question because I don't know what is exactly assembled where. Yes the engine is built in Germany, but is that just the core or do they ship it complete where it requires no assembly? I am a product developer and deal with a lot of countries and the first thing I do when I have a problem is break it down to see if the problem is more common with one location over the other. Process of elimination. Granted out of the hundreds of thousands of 3 series, we just have two here on the boards with this problem, but it would be interesting to know which plant they came from. Not as a final 'gotcha' moment, but one piece of the picture.
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      03-06-2015, 12:42 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo
Yes I know that, but can there be a problem during assembly? Honest question because I don't know what is exactly assembled where. Yes the engine is built in Germany, but is that just the core or do they ship it complete where it requires no assembly? I am a product developer and deal with a lot of countries and the first thing I do when I have a problem is break it down to see if the problem is more common with one location over the other. Process of elimination. Granted out of the hundreds of thousands of 3 series, we just have two here on the boards with this problem, but it would be interesting to know which plant they came from. Not as a final 'gotcha' moment, but one piece of the picture.
You're right, and I too would be curious to see that data.

All engines are fully built in Munich prior to vehicle assembly, at least as far as the short block (but probably the long block - i.e. including the accessories such as the alternator). Certainly the oil pump and pan would already be in place. But the pump itself likely comes from more than 1 supplier, that would be another interesting thing to know.

I'm a mechanical engineer, and my thoughts are in line with the speculation above regarding the design of the pump. It's a tricky little part, and if the engine is the heart of the car, the oil pump is certainly the heart of the engine. Rather unfortunate that we're all led to paranoia about it. I wonder too, does the N55 have the exact same pump?
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      03-06-2015, 01:25 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4NoMore View Post
You're right, and I too would be curious to see that data.

All engines are fully built in Munich prior to vehicle assembly, at least as far as the short block (but probably the long block - i.e. including the accessories such as the alternator). Certainly the oil pump and pan would already be in place. But the pump itself likely comes from more than 1 supplier, that would be another interesting thing to know.

I'm a mechanical engineer, and my thoughts are in line with the speculation above regarding the design of the pump. It's a tricky little part, and if the engine is the heart of the car, the oil pump is certainly the heart of the engine. Rather unfortunate that we're all led to paranoia about it. I wonder too, does the N55 have the exact same pump?
Or better do all the N20s have the same pump? They have used the N20 in the X1/X3 for years. I haven't heard much problems with them. Good point too on the pump might have multiple suppliers as well. That didn't occur to me but given their sales, I think you are right they most likely have more than one supplier for pumps as well. I am only concerned because I want to put a Dinan tune on my car. I have the extended warranty but Dinan only covers the original not extended time which expires in 2016 (one year). I am not keeping this car to 100k but if the oil pump is a weak spot just waiting to give way at 60-70k then adding the extra stress would not do this any good.
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      03-06-2015, 02:26 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dippydo
Or better do all the N20s have the same pump? They have used the N20 in the X1/X3 for years. I haven't heard much problems with them. Good point too on the pump might have multiple suppliers as well. That didn't occur to me but given their sales, I think you are right they most likely have more than one supplier for pumps as well. I am only concerned because I want to put a Dinan tune on my car. I have the extended warranty but Dinan only covers the original not extended time which expires in 2016 (one year). I am not keeping this car to 100k but if the oil pump is a weak spot just waiting to give way at 60-70k then adding the extra stress would not do this any good.
I checked and found the part numbers to be the same as the X-series N20. It is of course a different part to the N55 because of the integrated balance shafts, and won't be an easy thing to check if the pump internal components are the same.

All this has me considering a basic aftermarket powertrain warranty, which is not something I had thought I'd ever need to do. I don't think turning up the boost necessarily adds to the stress of the oil pump, but it does stress other parts which are dependent on oil pressure for lubrication and, to an extent, cooling.
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      03-06-2015, 04:58 PM   #85
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Aren't oil pumps supposed to be lifetime components without any maintenance required? This is pathetic.
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      03-06-2015, 05:55 PM   #86
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Call BMW NA and FIGHT!! Tell them you will make a big fuss that a simple item like an oil pump failed at such low mileage.
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      03-06-2015, 07:01 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB_123_99
Aren't oil pumps supposed to be lifetime components without any maintenance required? This is pathetic.
Yes, and I agree.. disappointing.
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      03-19-2015, 07:31 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronk
UPDATE:

I was told that BMW USA was willing to provide 25% towards the parts. The total repair cost with their "assistance" would be close to $14k (estimated). I'm obviously not happy with this, especially when I was told that this was the result of an oil pump that failed through no fault of my own.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I will be reaching out to BMW USA myself to see what they can do.
Any updates?
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