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      05-11-2015, 11:49 AM   #1
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Tracking the F30 335i with a few modifications

I participated to a 1-day HPDE with Hooked on Driving at Atlanta Motorsports Park. This track is not very fast (you hit 110 mph at best on the front straight) and rather technical with good elevation changes (~100 feet) and a ‘miniature’ version of Spa’s Eau Rouge and the Nurburgring Carousel. It is not my favorite local track as I prefer Road Atlanta for the adrenaline and find Barber more balanced, but it is a good testing ground for for taking my F30 to the track for the first time.

I have made a few modifications to the car to improve its performance and fun factor on the street and the occasional trackday (Bilstein PSS10 coilovers, Dinan Stage 1 tune, Michelin PSS tires, AWE Tuning exhaust) and was eager to find out how it would do.

Engine: I was really afraid to see the engine overheat –even though the temperature was only in the mid 70’s- and go into limp mode, especially as it occasionally happens on open road (just a drivetrain malfunction with minimal power loss and that resets itself when restarting the car). No such thing on that day and the engine pushed strong with a temperature that never exceeded 250F. There was more than enough power and torque on tap with the Dinan stage 1 tune and I never felt that I should have more. Gas consumption was around 10 mpg which is perfectly normal. I ran very low on gas during my last session and was happy to see that there was no fuel starvation issue despite the many turns. The AWE Tuning Touring exhaust w/Midpipes earned me numerous thumbs ups from other drivers.

Transmission: like many have already said the ZF 8AT is very quick and responsive. I ran it in full automatic sport setting and in manual with the paddles and could not beat the machine. I find 8 speeds to be 2 too many on the track. One major grudge I hold against BMW is the fact that the HUD will not show anything else than your speed . Why not the RPM’s and the engaged gear? An LSD would be nice, but not a must have and not worth the investment for an occasional use.

Suspension: the Bilstein PSS10s are worth every penny they cost. I had them on almost the firmest setting and they kept the car very planted in all circumstances. There was still a little too much body roll for my taste and coilovers would be happily complemented by aftermarket rollbars. More rigid bushings would complete the job but are pretty much out of the question for daily driving.

Tires: I am running Michelin Pilot Super Sports as I have done many times before. They have very good grip but tend to become a bit ‘greasy’ 15 to 20 minutes into a session. They remain very predictable and precise though. I am already passed 1/3rd of their life after 2,500 miles on the road, one day on the track and 2 autocrosses. Not better or worse than other tires and they are a good fit for an occasional track day.

Brakes: I am running the ‘base’ 335i brakes (340mm rotors and 4 pistons at the front, single piston at the rear), but with stainless steel lines, high temperature fluid, Pagid RS29 pads at the front and Stoptech Street Performance pads at the rear. There was no noticeable fading, but the braking at the end of the front straight (going from 110 down to almost 30 mph) was not the most confidence inspiring. It did not feel scary, but I would rather not have felt so close to the limit of what the brakes+tires can give. Going back to the paddocks after one cool down lap, the temperature of the rotors was ~400F. I would say that the base system with these simple upgrades is ‘enough’ but if you want to go balls out all the time, a BBK is probably a nice move. The Pagids pads were most likely chewing the rotors and, even after switching back to the OEM pads, I got a bit of grinding for the next 200 miles.

Overall, I was very positively surprised by the F30 and it went around the track in 1 min 39s with a couple of seconds to spare (building more speed in the carousel, braking a bit later on the front straight and carrying more speed in the sharpest turn). I have been to this track with a 911S several times in the past and was only running 3 or 4s faster than the F30. Bearing in mind that DE’s are a place to have fun, it could keep up with pretty much all the other (fast) cars.

Here are a few videos, including an extremely cheesy iMovie 'trailer'. Do not take it too seriously, it was not my goal







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      06-10-2015, 05:54 PM   #2
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I am thinking about taking my F30 N55 to the track too and I would like to use Pagid RS29 pads on the front as well, but some says that the pads is only compatible with new rotors.

My question is how many miles do you have on the rotors before using the pads and what is your bedding procedure?
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      06-11-2015, 05:45 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Underated View Post
I am thinking about taking my F30 N55 to the track too and I would like to use Pagid RS29 pads on the front as well, but some says that the pads is only compatible with new rotors.

My question is how many miles do you have on the rotors before using the pads and what is your bedding procedure?
I mounted the RS29 with 6,000 miles on the stock rotors. I know Pagid and many people say that pads may not work as well when other pads have already deposited material on the rotors but I had zero issue. I have swapped street and Pagid pads for years for the track with the same rotors.

The trick is to clean your rotors from pad materials before swapping them. A common trick is to use your track pads for this: track compounds are fairly abrasive when they are cold, so you just mount them on your car a few days before heading out to the track and simply commute with them. In normal driving circumstances your track pads will not heat up much and stay in 'abrasive' mode, removing the transfer layer of your street pads. You are then ready to bed your track pads and I try to follow Pagid's recommended procedure (although the 112 MPH part is not obvious if you are not at the track ) :

1. BREAKING-IN
(creating a perfect contact-pattern between rotor and brake pad surface)
10 stops with low pressure and low temperature from 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 80 km/h (50 MPH). Distance between each brake stop approximately 600 – 800 meters ( 600 to 800 yards).

2. HEATING-UP
(Warm up in order to initiate some core heat in the whole brake system)
A sequence of 5 stops with medium to high pressure from 180 km/h (112 MPH) to approximately 60 km/h (37 MPH) with maximum acceleration between the stops. After the last stop cool down for 3 minutes with the speed preferably not higher than 100 km/h (62 MPH).

3. RECOVERY STOPS
3 to 5 stops with low pressure from 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 80 km/h (50 MPH). Distance between each brake stop approximately 600 – 800 meters ( 600 to 800 yards).

After your trackday, leave the track pads for the trip back home or the next day and it will clean up the rotors again. You then just reinstall your street pads.
In brief, cleaning the surface of your rotors is the secret and taking advantage of the more abrasive nature of cold track pads works well.

The RS29's have proven to work well on my stock 335i brakes and show little wear after 3 trackdays. They surely are tough on the rotors and brakes may end up grinding a bit, but without consequences on performance and it will go away after the track. Over time you will have to think about new rotors though.
Aftermarket rotors are cheaper and just as good as OEM, so I purchased a set of StopTech 340mm rotors for only $275 from Turner Motorsports and keep my OEM rotors in OK shape for when I sell the car.



I hope this helps
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      06-11-2015, 06:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLBlue View Post
I mounted the RS29 with 6,000 miles on the stock rotors. I know Pagid and many people say that pads may not work as well when other pads have already deposited material on the rotors but I had zero issue. I have swapped street and Pagid pads for years for the track with the same rotors.

The trick is to clean your rotors from pad materials before swapping them. A common trick is to use your track pads for this: track compounds are fairly abrasive when they are cold, so you just mount them on your car a few days before heading out to the track and simply commute with them. In normal driving circumstances your track pads will not heat up much and stay in 'abrasive' mode, removing the transfer layer of your street pads. You are then ready to bed your track pads and I try to follow Pagid's recommended procedure (although the 112 MPH part is not obvious if you are not at the track ) :

1. BREAKING-IN
(creating a perfect contact-pattern between rotor and brake pad surface)
10 stops with low pressure and low temperature from 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 80 km/h (50 MPH). Distance between each brake stop approximately 600 – 800 meters ( 600 to 800 yards).

2. HEATING-UP
(Warm up in order to initiate some core heat in the whole brake system)
A sequence of 5 stops with medium to high pressure from 180 km/h (112 MPH) to approximately 60 km/h (37 MPH) with maximum acceleration between the stops. After the last stop cool down for 3 minutes with the speed preferably not higher than 100 km/h (62 MPH).

3. RECOVERY STOPS
3 to 5 stops with low pressure from 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 80 km/h (50 MPH). Distance between each brake stop approximately 600 – 800 meters ( 600 to 800 yards).

After your trackday, leave the track pads for the trip back home or the next day and it will clean up the rotors again. You then just reinstall your street pads.
In brief, cleaning the surface of your rotors is the secret and taking advantage of the more abrasive nature of cold track pads works well.

The RS29's have proven to work well on my stock 335i brakes and show little wear after 3 trackdays. They surely are tough on the rotors and brakes may end up grinding a bit, but without consequences on performance and it will go away after the track. Over time you will have to think about new rotors though.
Aftermarket rotors are cheaper and just as good as OEM, so I purchased a set of StopTech 340mm rotors for only $275 from Turner Motorsports and keep my OEM rotors in OK shape for when I sell the car.



I hope this helps
couldn't you get 370mm or doesn't fit bmw stock caliper?
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      06-11-2015, 07:25 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by M-terkait View Post
couldn't you get 370mm or doesn't fit bmw stock caliper?
I d do not think they fit. Would also be too easy to get M Sport front brakes for just the cost of aftermarket calipers... Pretty sure BMW would not make that possible
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      06-11-2015, 09:48 PM   #6
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Nothing technical this time, just a few videos from my last track week end with BMW CCA @ Barber Motorsportspark:





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      06-12-2015, 08:18 PM   #7
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Thanks for the post. Like you I have an EB F30 and I am thinking of taking it out to a track weekend at Mt. Tremblant coming up soon.

I have a fully setup E36 M3 Euro race car, but the track has a strict sound limit and I am concerned that I will be over it with the race car. This is making me consider taking the F30.

The Pagids you reference seem like the only readily available race capable pad option so I will likely go with a set of those. Its good to hear that the car can at least survive a track day with that combination.

It's also good to hear that you did not overheat. Maybe they have improved on that with the F30 compared to the early E90 335is.

Nice video as well......by the way I think you were at Barber Motorsports Park rather than Atlanta.....
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      06-12-2015, 08:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avusm3 View Post
Thanks for the post. Like you I have an EB F30 and I am thinking of taking it out to a track weekend at Mt. Tremblant coming up soon.

I have a fully setup E36 M3 Euro race car, but the track has a strict sound limit and I am concerned that I will be over it with the race car. This is making me consider taking the F30.

The Pagids you reference seem like the only readily available race capable pad option so I will likely go with a set of those. Its good to hear that the car can at least survive a track day with that combination.

It's also good to hear that you did not overheat. Maybe they have improved on that with the F30 compared to the early E90 335is.

Nice video as well......by the way I think you were at Barber Motorsports Park rather than Atlanta.....
Not sure if I left typo's somewhere about where I was I have taken the F30 to Atlanta Motorsports Park and Barber Motorsports Park so far. Road Atlanta is next on my list.
I have driven an E36 M3 (US specs, track prepped, sold) and an E46 M3 (I still have) on those tracks and the M3's feel of course more planted. Still, the F30 is a lot of fun and a different experience with its low end turbo engine torque. Worth trying IMHO.
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      06-12-2015, 09:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLBlue View Post
Not sure if I left typo's somewhere about where I was
Hey, my bad. I didn't realize you had video of two different tracks on the thread!

By the way, I agree with your approach for using the abrasive track pads to clean the rotors when changing them out. I think I'll go with that approach.
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      06-13-2015, 08:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLBlue View Post
I mounted the RS29 with 6,000 miles on the stock rotors. I know Pagid and many people say that pads may not work as well when other pads have already deposited material on the rotors but I had zero issue. I have swapped street and Pagid pads for years for the track with the same rotors.

The trick is to clean your rotors from pad materials before swapping them. A common trick is to use your track pads for this: track compounds are fairly abrasive when they are cold, so you just mount them on your car a few days before heading out to the track and simply commute with them. In normal driving circumstances your track pads will not heat up much and stay in 'abrasive' mode, removing the transfer layer of your street pads. You are then ready to bed your track pads and I try to follow Pagid's recommended procedure (although the 112 MPH part is not obvious if you are not at the track ) :

1. BREAKING-IN
(creating a perfect contact-pattern between rotor and brake pad surface)
10 stops with low pressure and low temperature from 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 80 km/h (50 MPH). Distance between each brake stop approximately 600 – 800 meters ( 600 to 800 yards).

2. HEATING-UP
(Warm up in order to initiate some core heat in the whole brake system)
A sequence of 5 stops with medium to high pressure from 180 km/h (112 MPH) to approximately 60 km/h (37 MPH) with maximum acceleration between the stops. After the last stop cool down for 3 minutes with the speed preferably not higher than 100 km/h (62 MPH).

3. RECOVERY STOPS
3 to 5 stops with low pressure from 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 80 km/h (50 MPH). Distance between each brake stop approximately 600 – 800 meters ( 600 to 800 yards).

After your trackday, leave the track pads for the trip back home or the next day and it will clean up the rotors again. You then just reinstall your street pads.
In brief, cleaning the surface of your rotors is the secret and taking advantage of the more abrasive nature of cold track pads works well.

The RS29's have proven to work well on my stock 335i brakes and show little wear after 3 trackdays. They surely are tough on the rotors and brakes may end up grinding a bit, but without consequences on performance and it will go away after the track. Over time you will have to think about new rotors though.
Aftermarket rotors are cheaper and just as good as OEM, so I purchased a set of StopTech 340mm rotors for only $275 from Turner Motorsports and keep my OEM rotors in OK shape for when I sell the car.



I hope this helps
Thank you for the thorough guide, I tried looking for the Pagid RS29 pads and it seems that all the shop ran out of stock and it takes about approximately 2 weeks to get it ordered, which I am pretty sure going to take more.

Meanwhile since I am going to NCM motorsport park on the 21st, I decided to order porterfield R4S for both front and rear. I will see how it perform while I wait for the RS29 and probably get an extra set of rotors if it is necessary.
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      06-14-2015, 08:08 AM   #11
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Very nice videos! How did you get the track layout up on the iDrive screen?
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      06-14-2015, 09:01 AM   #12
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Very nice videos! How did you get the track layout up on the iDrive screen?
I used the M Laptimer app. The iDrive screen will show your trajectory, G's... or an ///M logo. The app runs very well on the iPhone but I have not been able to open the .mpower files with any other software. I'll go back to Harry's or something similar in the future.
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      06-14-2015, 09:08 AM   #13
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Here's some of the Barber track weekend feedback I have shared in my Journal and am reposting here for forum members who rather stick to the Tracking section

Track & Tires

I have been using Michelin Pilot Super Sport since they got released. I found them to be the best performance tire for the road with good grip in the dry and the wet, a good road feedback and smooth ride. I have used them for occasional trackdays on multiple cars (E36 M3, E46 M3, GTI, 911) and they always did OK. They become a little 'greasy' when they run really hot but are an OK solution when you do not want to have a dedicated set of wheels for the track.

I check the pressure of my tires before, during and after the sessions and adjust it accordingly. I usually shoot for ~35 PSI hot and never more than 40 which has always worked fine. So this week end was a bit of a surprise when I took a look at my front tires after the 5th session (these tires have 5,000 miles, 2 trackdays and 2 autoX under the belt):





I can think of several explanations:

1) -the most likely- the driver (myself) pushed the car like a pig with no respect or attention to the tires that were squealing and imploring me to be more mindful of how I adjusted my steering angle and throttle input. It was a nice morning session and I did my fastest laps of the week end. No red mist, but coud not help myself to have fun

2) the tires are slightly stretched: OEM recommended tire sizes for 19" but the rims are 0.5" wider at the front and 1" wider at the rear. This may not be the best option to keep the sidewall in a good shape in high stress situations

3) bad batch of Michelin PSS: I do not believe this one, the quality of their products has always been outstanding.


Having still 3 more sessions to go through on Sunday, I swapped my wheels and mounted my OEM 18" with Potenza S001 RFT. I'll be honest and say it was a very good surprise. I dialed my level of agression down an notch (ran 2 to 3s slower) bumped up the pressure 3PSI, avoided to make the tires squeal too much and the RFTs did a very good job: stayed consistent throughout the session, grip was not a lot worse than PSS and they were still in great shape at the end of the day. Maybe the stiffer sidewalls are part of the explanation.
My takeway is that if you do not want to throw money at other tires before the RFTs are worn out, it is fine to use them for an occasional day at the track.

A this point, I'll get a fresh set of front PSSs for my 19" wheels I'll daily drive and am considering to get a set of more track oriented tires for my 18" wheels set (not going all the way to to R-compoud though, unless I would install a BBK).

Brakes update (upgrade?)

The Pagids RS29 pads have so far done a great job on the track but are definitely tough on the rotors and there is grinding after a few sessions.

Barber Motorsports Park has also taken its toll on the brakes: I check my rotors temperature every time I go back to the paddocks and the fronts were up to 660F vs 600F for the rears, even after a cool down lap. I have not observed any fading but I am happy I went for high temperature brake fluid and stainless steel lines.

For those of you who take their car to the track, I suggest to invest in a basic infrared thermometer like this one:



It comes handy to check how uniformly your tires are heating up, brakes temperature etc.

Knowing that I will inevitably have to replace my rotors at some point, I chose to swap them for aftermarket (Stoptech) rotors that are cheaper, just as good as OEMs and look better (black hat, slotted and 'pseudo-'drilled like the M performance rotors).

Since we had a couple of hours between two sessions, I installed the new rotors myself (one of the easiest thing you can do on your F30):



Again, not sure that there is any improvement in performance, but it certainly looks cool
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      06-16-2015, 02:24 AM   #14
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so the performance dimple and slotted rotors bolt right up with stock calipers(4 pistons)?
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      06-16-2015, 08:14 AM   #15
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so the performance dimple and slotted rotors bolt right up with stock calipers(4 pistons)?
These are not M Performance rotors, but aftermarket (StopTech) 340mm rotors that fit the standard 335i brake system. Cheaper than OEM, just as good and better looking (from a performance standpoint on the dry, I am not sure that the fact that the rotors are dimpled and slotted make a difference).
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      06-16-2015, 11:36 AM   #16
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That wear is typical of any tire(s) that spent too much time past the optimum slip angle.

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      06-16-2015, 12:34 PM   #17
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That wear is typical of any tire(s) that spent too much time past the optimum slip angle.

Thanks, nice explanatory chart. You nailed it and it is in line with the fact that I pushed the car too hard during the session that finished to kill my tires. Instead of smoother line and more gentle throttle/brake use I went all out, generating too much understeer in hairpins and going past the optimum grip point in sweepers.

I also think I should have had my tire pressure slightly up and bit more camber which I'll work on for the next trackday.
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      06-17-2015, 07:29 AM   #18
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Awesome reviews and feedback, I rarely see F30's at the track so it's refreshing to read this. While not the same car, my S4 is likewise a fat pig and the tires get scrubbed pretty hard while trying to get it around the corners. I definitely know that no tracks are created equal, but I took my PSS out to gingerman raceway, which is pretty nasty on tires/brakes. I got tons of sidewall wear, but no chunking like you are seeing. So I agree that you are probably overdriving and/or taking a line you are used to from a different car? But I too felt that the PSS were greasy about mid session, with hot pressure at 40 psi. For reference I ran 255/35R19 PSS on 19x9.5 wheels, which is a pretty decent stretch.

I decided to switch to a dedicated track set and have 2 DE's on some Dunlap Direzza ZII's, which are MUCH better than the PSS over the entire course of the session. They held up to some pretty hot/humid conditions at mid-ohio this past weekend. They are pretty cheap since the new ZII SS is coming out, so tirerack has ZII's on fire sale.

Regarding the brakes, I'm a carbotech xp20 guy myself, but the pagid's are just as well respected from everything I've heard/read. The F30 comes with a nice 4 piston fixed caliper, so I wonder about the benefits of a BBK. Would it be possible to run a proper set of 2-piece properly veined rotors? Something like Girodisc or Stoptech aero rotors? Everything I've read says that the stock blanks are not directionally veined, which obviously makes a HUGE difference in heat dissipation. From this link it would appear that FL/FR rotors have the same part number, implying they are not veined properly. I personally don't see how going to a large rotor without switching proportioning is a good thing. You'll push the bias forward and ultimately reduce the overall stopping performance (you could argue this is marginal of course).
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      06-17-2015, 07:55 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Awesome reviews and feedback, I rarely see F30's at the track so it's refreshing to read this. While not the same car, my S4 is likewise a fat pig and the tires get scrubbed pretty hard while trying to get it around the corners. I definitely know that no tracks are created equal, but I took my PSS out to gingerman raceway, which is pretty nasty on tires/brakes. I got tons of sidewall wear, but no chunking like you are seeing. So I agree that you are probably overdriving and/or taking a line you are used to from a different car? But I too felt that the PSS were greasy about mid session, with hot pressure at 40 psi. For reference I ran 255/35R19 PSS on 19x9.5 wheels, which is a pretty decent stretch.

I decided to switch to a dedicated track set and have 2 DE's on some Dunlap Direzza ZII's, which are MUCH better than the PSS over the entire course of the session. They held up to some pretty hot/humid conditions at mid-ohio this past weekend. They are pretty cheap since the new ZII SS is coming out, so tirerack has ZII's on fire sale.

Regarding the brakes, I'm a carbotech xp20 guy myself, but the pagid's are just as well respected from everything I've heard/read. The F30 comes with a nice 4 piston fixed caliper, so I wonder about the benefits of a BBK. Would it be possible to run a proper set of 2-piece properly veined rotors? Something like Girodisc or Stoptech aero rotors? Everything I've read says that the stock blanks are not directionally veined, which obviously makes a HUGE difference in heat dissipation. From this link it would appear that FL/FR rotors have the same part number, implying they are not veined properly. I personally don't see how going to a large rotor without switching proportioning is a good thing. You'll push the bias forward and ultimately reduce the overall stopping performance (you could argue this is marginal of course).
Thanks for all the good feedback! At this point the F30 340mm brakes with ss lines, higher temp fluid and Pagids are adequate. I still have to take the car to Road Atlanta, where I expect to hit 145-150 mph on the backstraight before melting the brakes to take a 90º left turn... I'll see how they will perform.
I have also thought about mounting a set of track tires on my stock 18" rims.

You are also right about overdriving/coming from another car: the previous times I was at Barber, I used a naturally aspirated 911 and it obviously behaves very differently during turn in and corner exit, so I had to 'unlearn' my line and reference points (which was done by the time I finished to destroy my PSS and put the stock wheels back on the car for the second day ).

Would you by any chance post about your track experience with the S4 on an Audi forum? I have had a B8 S4 myself and am always interested to learn what others have done with it.
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      06-17-2015, 09:02 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ATLBlue View Post
Thanks for all the good feedback! At this point the F30 340mm brakes with ss lines, higher temp fluid and Pagids are adequate. I still have to take the car to Road Atlanta, where I expect to hit 145-150 mph on the backstraight before melting the brakes to take a 90º left turn... I'll see how they will perform.
I have also thought about mounting a set of track tires on my stock 18" rims.

You are also right about overdriving/coming from another car: the previous times I was at Barber, I used a naturally aspirated 911 and it obviously behaves very differently during turn in and corner exit, so I had to 'unlearn' my line and reference points (which was done by the time I finished to destroy my PSS and put the stock wheels back on the car for the second day ).

Would you by any chance post about your track experience with the S4 on an Audi forum? I have had a B8 S4 myself and am always interested to learn what others have done with it.
Definitely makes sense about the 911 line. I just went to mid-ohio with the PCA club, and man those cars can rotate lol...on really long double apex small radius turns (keyhole and carousel at MO) they track WAY further out mid turn and then really swing in for an earlier second apex than I could ever imagine in my car. So trying to follow them absolutely scrubs my front tires into oblivion with the understeer lol

Btw - were you rotating your tires between days? Definitely a HUGE advantage of a square setup.

We have a pretty awesome track drivers thread on AZ here. The main differences on track between the cars are IMO: f30 has much better brakes (S4 has HORRIBLE brakes for size), issues with cooling (the 3.0T will heak soak, but there are no issues with cooling on track), S4 SLA front suspension means camber isn't needed as much as the F30, S4 is definitely heavier. But other than that, the experience there is pretty transferable to the F30 IMO.

I've found the e9x M3 section here is pretty awesome for threads on track driving.
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      06-17-2015, 09:08 AM   #21
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OP, I loved the uber-dramatic trailer, complete with epic Carmina Burana soundtrack.
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      06-17-2015, 10:42 AM   #22
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OP, I loved the uber-dramatic trailer, complete with epic Carmina Burana soundtrack.
LOL, that's where iMovie comes handy with video clip templates. I found the result cheesy and over the top but I must admit that I had fun with it
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