[luke1990]

Originally Posted by Watsey

That data doesn't make for good reading for the CSF : as much as 35% performance reduction in the low speed range, and only a 5% gain (at best) elsewhere. Predominantly it's a sea of red.

Thanks for taking the time to log the data and share it. Very insightful

I do my part to help . Don't want to be not fair to the CSF - will do the same temperature testing tomorrow.

Also:
1) do you guys think a different map could fix the down-low problem the CSF seems to have? E.g. pushing the smaller turbo more. When I looked at my current map, the power curve up until 2,000rpm is same as stock. So maybe there is a way? Link to my map:

View post on imgur.com

2) For the Wagner - I assume it makes sense to go the v2 route. Any perspective on Performance vs Competition? Aside from the fact htat the Competition is 3kg lighter that is

Thanks a ton!

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by Watsey

That data doesn't make for good reading for the CSF : as much as 35% performance reduction in the low speed range, and only a 5% gain (at best) elsewhere. Predominantly it's a sea of red.

Thanks for taking the time to log the data and share it. Very insightful

I think the magnitude is more important to look at than the ratio. For the same magnitude the ratio/percentage will be smaller at higher speeds, plus at higher speeds the same time magnitude equates to more distance/larger gap.

That said, in daily driving you'll certainly notice the lag more as luke1990 has.

Originally Posted by luke1990

Also:
1) do you guys think a different map could fix the down-low problem the CSF seems to have? E.g. pushing the smaller turbo more. When I looked at my current map, the power curve up until 2,000rpm is same as stock. So maybe there is a way? Link to my map:

View post on imgur.com

2) For the Wagner - I assume it makes sense to go the v2 route. Any perspective on Performance vs Competition? Aside from the fact htat the Competition is 3kg lighter that is

Thanks a ton!

1) A new map could help. I've seen tunes in the past that didn't change anything at low rpm. You'd have to ask your tuner if they changed the maps through the entire rpm range, or only a block of rpms.

2) I don't think you'd be happy with the Wagner EVO 1 line (and if that's the level of cooling performance you're after there are lots of others in that space that offer better value). For the EVO 2, I don't have any experience with the performance model, but it looks like there's less that differentiates it from its competitors, vs the Comp, doesn't really have any other direct competitors with respect to flow, weight, and construction.

BTW, on your 20-40, 40-60, ect tests were those done standalone, or calculated as part of a 0-100/200 run? I believe its the later, but wanted to check.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

2) I don't think you'd be happy with the Wagner EVO 1 line (and if that's the level of cooling performance you're after there are lots of others in that space that offer better value). For the EVO 2, I don't have any experience with the performance model, but it looks like there's less that differentiates it from its competitors, vs the Comp, doesn't really have any other direct competitors with respect to flow, weight, and construction..

I'm not clear about your wording relating to the EVO2 - are you saying that it's class-leading, or that it doesn't really differentiate itself ?

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by Watsey

I'm not clear about your wording relating to the EVO2 - are you saying that it's class-leading, or that it doesn't really differentiate itself ?

I don't believe the EVO 2 Performance differentiates itself from its competitors. Others are similar in weight, construction, likely performance, flow, and are a cheaper, so you can achieve the same things the EVO 2 performance does without sacrificing anything.

For the EVO 2 Competition, nothing else out there really has the same combination of weight, construction, and flow from what I've seen (I'd be happy to be shown I'm wrong on this). You're going to have to compromise on some of those to go with a different unit, so it comes down to what your priorities are.

If it's weight and flow, the EVO 2 comp is really hard to beat. If it's mainly cooling performance though, then you have options and the EVO 2 comp's price doesn't justify itself.

For me it was lag during daily driving and cooling performance (for the track). The extra weight of the ATM didn't bother me. In daily driving both had lags that were acceptable to me, even though one was better than the other. On the track my data showed higher top speeds with the ATM, so since the two were equal per my thresholds elsewhere, that's what I chose.

[Watsey]

Cheers FaRKle!

[luke1990]

Hi all, thought I'd give you an update.

I tested yesterday at almost same temperature and both runs were with hard brake, peddal down, but no flag showing (for some reason my car just half the time doesnt properly LC :/). I'm using Dragy so keep in this in mind - it means that the times are in reality overall lower because dragy starts measuring when it feels car move which it does a bit before it launches without the flag. I'd say 0.2s. And the result are slightly adjusted, but I think overall with same message.



You can see here that there is not that much of difference in 0-20 now. But overall still holds true that its slower down and better top. For me however the 2nd graph is more important as it represents the real world scenario - you won't be launching everytime you want to accelerate. And there you can see that the CSF just doesn't cut it.

Also yes - all times are part of single run . So 0-20 followed by 20-40 etc.

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I don't believe the EVO 2 Performance differentiates itself from its competitors. Others are similar in weight, construction, likely performance, flow, and are a cheaper, so you can achieve the same things the EVO 2 performance does without sacrificing anything.

For the EVO 2 Competition, nothing else out there really has the same combination of weight, construction, and flow from what I've seen (I'd be happy to be shown I'm wrong on this). You're going to have to compromise on some of those to go with a different unit, so it comes down to what your priorities are.

If it's weight and flow, the EVO 2 comp is really hard to beat. If it's mainly cooling performance though, then you have options and the EVO 2 comp's price doesn't justify itself.

For me it was lag during daily driving and cooling performance (for the track). The extra weight of the ATM didn't bother me. In daily driving both had lags that were acceptable to me, even though one was better than the other. On the track my data showed higher top speeds with the ATM, so since the two were equal per my thresholds elsewhere, that's what I chose.

Thanks for the explanation! I like the idea of ATM, but 2 things are on my mind - 1) you have to remove the bumper to install right? I will do this in a shop as I'm not that good :/ and that will cost me, 2) the lag - I really hated the CSF lag and it sounds like the ATM is halfway there - albeit, as you put it, not bothering you. If I don't like it then again more money for taking it off - and can't really return it to states

So - does the Wagner Comp 2 provide enough benefit over stock, or do you need to go to ATM to see those - real life I mean?

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Thanks for the explanation! I like the idea of ATM, but 2 things are on my mind - 1) you have to remove the bumper to install right? I will do this in a shop as I'm not that good :/ and that will cost me, 2) the lag - I really hated the CSF lag and it sounds like the ATM is halfway there - albeit, as you put it, not bothering you. If I don't like it then again more money for taking it off - and can't really return it to states

So - does the Wagner Comp 2 provide enough benefit over stock, or do you need to go to ATM to see those - real life I mean?

The ATM installation is the same as CSF, no bumper removal required.

On the track the Wagner EVO 2 Comp is definitely worth it over stock. In daily driving you'd have to see what your charge air temps are getting to, to figure out whether it'll be worth it. Likely in commuting it won't make a difference, but what do your temps look like on the back/canyon/twisty roads you drive?

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

The ATM installation is the same as CSF, no bumper removal required.

On the track the Wagner EVO 2 Comp is definitely worth it over stock. In daily driving you'd have to see what your charge air temps are getting to, to figure out whether it'll be worth it. Likely in commuting it won't make a difference, but what do your temps look like on the back/canyon/twisty roads you drive?

Then I may get the ATM - if the lag is not bothering you . I like to go for like 1-2 hour drives. And I push the car like half the time quite a lot. So I think I may see the benefit. Also during acceleration runs 0-200 or so, I think it should help prevent the heatsoak up top - which I think I do get.

Its central europe - so over summer its gonna be 25-35C (77-95F) - which is I think where it will make difference

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Then I may get the ATM - if the lag is not bothering you . I like to go for like 1-2 hour drives. And I push the car like half the time quite a lot. So I think I may see the benefit. Also during acceleration runs 0-200 or so, I think it should help prevent the heatsoak up top - which I think I do get.

Its central europe - so over summer its gonna be 25-35C (77-95F) - which is I think where it will make difference

I think the data of mine (from the test I did in my sig) that'd be closest to pushing your car on normal roads is the T2-T8 section of my track data. If you look at the track map, T2-T6 you aren't pedal to the floor for long periods of time due to all the consecutive turns, and are holding throttle/making slight adjustments (speeds around 45-75mph/ 72-120kmh) then exiting T6 you go full throttle (like a long pull on normal roads) up to T8. That was at 95F/35C too.

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I think the data of mine (from the test I did in my sig) that'd be closest to pushing your car on normal roads is the T2-T8 section of my track data. If you look at the track map, T2-T6 you aren't pedal to the floor for long periods of time due to all the consecutive turns, and are holding throttle/making slight adjustments (speeds around 45-75mph/ 72-120kmh) then exiting T6 you go full throttle (like a long pull on normal roads) up to T8. That was at 95F/35C too.

Well your entire graph shows ATM with better temps and you said you achieved a better top speed so . Either way its better than Wagner and must be than stock. Just last question - when you say lag - that it was a bit more than Wagner, but it didn't bother you - how would you describe it? Can you feel it vs stock? And how much less it is vs CSF? I know its all subjective but any such thing would be apperciated. I was just supper sad with the CSF down low :/. Don't want to order IC from states and have the same thing happen . Thanks!

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Just last question - when you say lag - that it was a bit more than Wagner, but it didn't bother you - how would you describe it? Can you feel it vs stock? And how much less it is vs CSF? I know its all subjective but any such thing would be apperciated. I was just supper sad with the CSF down low :/. Don't want to order IC from states and have the same thing happen . Thanks!

I feel like with the OE and ATM ICs you notice the lag most by your throttle inputs. I know for me, I find myself pressing the throttle down more than I need to, to try and get through the lag, and then as power/boost starts to build dialing back. That period of time where you've overthrottled to try and get past the lag is a bit longer on the ATM vs stock. With the CSF I felt like I was waiting way too long to get past the lag and having a smooth power delivery from a stop was a challenge.

How would you describe the lag you saw with the CSF?

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I feel like with the OE and ATM ICs you notice the lag most by your throttle inputs. I know for me, I find myself pressing the throttle down more than I need to, to try and get through the lag, and then as power/boost starts to build dialing back. That period of time where you've overthrottled to try and get past the lag is a bit longer on the ATM vs stock. With the CSF I felt like I was waiting way too long to get past the lag and having a smooth power delivery from a stop was a challenge.

How would you describe the lag you saw with the CSF?

Sorry - went on vacation .

For me CSF felt like there was no power down low - even if I smashed the pedal to the floor, it didn't put you back to your seat until 3,000 RPM when it either pressurized, or the big turbo kicked in. So thats why it was much less enjoyable. I might still give it a chance with an Evolve tune - talking to Imran now.

For the ATM btw - do you know if for the x35d you should get the one for 135/335i, or the one for 328d? I sent them two emails but didn't get a reply :/ I'm thinking the first, since the second is for N47 engines?

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Sorry - went on vacation .

For me CSF felt like there was no power down low - even if I smashed the pedal to the floor, it didn't put you back to your seat until 3,000 RPM when it either pressurized, or the big turbo kicked in. So thats why it was much less enjoyable. I might still give it a chance with an Evolve tune - talking to Imran now.

For the ATM btw - do you know if for the x35d you should get the one for 135/335i, or the one for 328d? I sent them two emails but didn't get a reply :/ I'm thinking the first, since the second is for N47 engines?

Hopefully the tune can improve things for you. Boost on the N47 comes on around 2000rpm and you certainly feel the surge of power before 3000rpm. What's your boost vs rpm, and what's the max boost you see?

The N47/328d version of the ATM intercooler is the one that's compatible with your vehicle (fits N20/26/55/47/57 engine cars).

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Sorry - went on vacation .

For me CSF felt like there was no power down low - even if I smashed the pedal to the floor, it didn't put you back to your seat until 3,000 RPM when it either pressurized, or the big turbo kicked in. So thats why it was much less enjoyable. I might still give it a chance with an Evolve tune - talking to Imran now.

For the ATM btw - do you know if for the x35d you should get the one for 135/335i, or the one for 328d? I sent them two emails but didn't get a reply :/ I'm thinking the first, since the second is for N47 engines?

Of the two options available from ATM, the 35i unit would be the one to go for. However, I've been in contact with ATM earlier this year and couldn't get a definitive answer regarding compatibility for the 30d as that unit is not available in the US.

As the ATM and the CSF units are, as far as I've read, almost identical in terms of external dimensions, and the CSF unit is a straight fit to the 30d/35d, it should be the case that the ATM IC for the 35i will fit the 30d/35d.

We just need a guinea pig, correction "willing volunteer", to try it

[FaRKle!]

I just re-looked at the ATM product pages.

Actually either of those two listings will work. I confirmed a while ago that the "BMW F20 F22 F30 F32 N55 135I/328I/335I INTERCOOLER 2012+" and "BMW F30 F31 N47 328D/DX INTERCOOLER 2014-2017" are the same intercooler. They just made separate listings for gas and diesel.

When you originally said 135/335 intercooler I thought you were referring to the "BMW E80, E82, E9X N54/N55 135I/335I INTERCOOLER" listing, which definitely won't work as the inlet/outlets attachments are different.

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I just re-looked at the ATM product pages.

Actually either of those two listings will work. I confirmed a while ago that the "BMW F20 F22 F30 F32 N55 135I/328I/335I INTERCOOLER 2012+" and "BMW F30 F31 N47 328D/DX INTERCOOLER 2014-2017" are the same intercooler. They just made separate listings for gas and diesel.

When you originally said 135/335 intercooler I thought you were referring to the "BMW E80, E82, E9X N54/N55 135I/335I INTERCOOLER" listing, which definitely won't work as the inlet/outlets attachments are different.

Thanks a ton! And just to confirm - for N57 it should be also plug & play?

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Thanks a ton! And just to confirm - for N57 it should be also plug & play?

Yup.

[luke1990]

Thanks!

And lastly - is there anything else worth getting from their shop? I heard a while back good references on their air intakes - but not sure they are even compatible for the F30

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Thanks!

And lastly - is there anything else worth getting from their shop? I heard a while back good references on their air intakes - but not sure they are even compatible for the F30

They really don't offer anything else for the F3x platform. Most of their stuff is aimed at E90/70.

[luke1990]

So made an order today for the ATM FMIC. Hopefully the results will be good . Btw - I the cheapest shipment to mainland europe was $212 so not cheap. The most expensive one was >$900 .

On the flipside - I found one coupon that still works: BIMMERFEST10OFF - its 10% off the product (not shipping unfo). Its like 2 years old but still rocking - if anyone was thinking of ordering something

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by luke1990

So made an order today for the ATM FMIC. Hopefully the results will be good . Btw - I the cheapest shipment to mainland europe was $212 so not cheap. The most expensive one was >$900 .

On the flipside - I found one coupon that still works: BIMMERFEST10OFF - its 10% off the product (not shipping unfo). Its like 2 years old but still rocking - if anyone was thinking of ordering something

I hope it works out for you! Did your tuner say anything about improving low end response?