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      06-22-2016, 12:22 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonNW
What if Z was a sports car marque in it's own right? //M has really been an in-house tuner badge for all cars other than the M1. What if the Z was a real sports car out of the gate without the need for a tuner badge?
This is a really good point. There was never a Z8 "M" variant and that car is a legend.
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      06-22-2016, 12:44 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Z5 is an unknown quantity as its being placed a little higher than the current car, mainly against the Jaguar F-Type.
So it is a full relaunch of a new model aimed at enticing more Sports car owners from the more accessible Z4.
That is why there is an advanced programme of development with Toyota on the new car as both companies can pool resources on one car.
BMW see the relaunch of the Z series similar to the BMWi cars with a new genre of sports cars using a lightweight philosophy although aimed at performance rather than sustainability.
Should the car initially be successful? Then we will see progress.
You say its going against the F-Type (which is an awesome car) but based on all the information we have seen it's only competing against the F-Type on size (and probably price)! Jaguar has RWD and AWD options vs BMW RWD only, and the engines are not even close if BMW is only putting the 4 & 6 cyl in there, Jaguar starts at 340hp (which would compare to a Z5 M40i if made) and goes all the way up to a 550 HP version (meaning BMW needs the M5 engine to compete). the 340 hp version starts at $65K.

now if BMW offered a Z5M with AWD for $108K to compete with the F-Type that would be amazing.
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      06-22-2016, 03:13 PM   #47
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I'd wager that Toyota and BMW have an agreement that Toyota will be allowed to have the highest output application of this joint venture, hence the reason for no M model.

So if Toyota does release a twin turbo inline 6 Supra, with around 450-500 hp. Then an S55 would be far too close in performance and an S63 out of the question.
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      06-22-2016, 03:13 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I think that's a good thing - they've already got the M4 hardtop vert - this can be differentiated in a meaningful (aka performance-based) way.
The M4 Cabrio with folding hardtop is lighter then the Mercedes-Benz C63 Cabrio with a soft top.
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      06-22-2016, 03:17 PM   #49
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Iím actually disappointed that BMW never produced a street car variant of the Z4 GT3. I had anticipated the Z4 M being fitted with the S65 engine in the final two years of production (similar to the engine in the Z3 M being changed from the S52 to the S54 in 2001 and 2002), because the Z4 GT3 never had much of a link to the Z4 M production car as required in FIA GT3 cars. Unfortunately, the S65 powered Z4 M was never produced by BMW and I was a little surprised that FIA let BMW get away with racing the Z4 GT3.
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      06-22-2016, 03:21 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
You say its going against the F-Type (which is an awesome car) but based on all the information we have seen it's only competing against the F-Type on size (and probably price)! Jaguar has RWD and AWD options vs BMW RWD only, and the engines are not even close if BMW is only putting the 4 & 6 cyl in there, Jaguar starts at 340hp (which would compare to a Z5 M40i if made) and goes all the way up to a 550 HP version (meaning BMW needs the M5 engine to compete). the 340 hp version starts at $65K.

now if BMW offered a Z5M with AWD for $108K to compete with the F-Type that would be amazing.
I don't think a Z5 with xDrive is on the cards. Why can't the BMW demonstrate the similar levels of power but with less cylinders?
Its the change which is coming and not necessarily for this car but the BMW Power eDrive power train is a six cylinder albeit assisted drivetrain with 670PS. It illustrates a possible future for performance.
And besides the Jaguar is not a light car.
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      06-22-2016, 06:23 PM   #51
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      06-22-2016, 09:00 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
I don't think a Z5 with xDrive is on the cards. Why can't the BMW demonstrate the similar levels of power but with less cylinders?
Its the change which is coming and not necessarily for this car but the BMW Power eDrive power train is a six cylinder albeit assisted drivetrain with 670PS. It illustrates a possible future for performance.
And besides the Jaguar is not a light car.
Sure, but as you had said earlier and again mention here, Power eDrive is not currently planned for this car either.

It's true that a lighter car needs less power to compete with a heavier car, but in this market you are more likely to get enthusiasts on board by coming out swinging and taking the segment by storm. I just don't see that happening with an I4 and I6. I'm sure it'll be a fine car, just as the outgoing Z4 was. But M3 owners who were contemplating a sports car used to talk about the Z4 M and the Boxster in the same sentence. BMW even had the coupe back then, before the Cayman came along if I recall. That's all history now. There's just not the same pedigree and therefore not the same excitement. It would be great to see that rekindled, but this Z5 doesn't sound like it's going to get BMW there.
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      06-23-2016, 07:44 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The M4 Cabrio with folding hardtop is lighter then the Mercedes-Benz C63 Cabrio with a soft top.
A pig is still a pig though, right?

My only point is that BMW could use the Z5 to distinguish between more performance based origins rather than comfort and luxury. Or they could at least have enough versions of the Z5 that this is possible.

The current Z4 is a great looking car, but the steering is awful. My pops and I drove one (he has a Z4MC). No comparison, even with the 35i model.

Hopefully that's addressed in the new car.
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      06-23-2016, 08:21 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Sure, but as you had said earlier and again mention here, Power eDrive is not currently planned for this car either.

It's true that a lighter car needs less power to compete with a heavier car, but in this market you are more likely to get enthusiasts on board by coming out swinging and taking the segment by storm. I just don't see that happening with an I4 and I6. I'm sure it'll be a fine car, just as the outgoing Z4 was. But M3 owners who were contemplating a sports car used to talk about the Z4 M and the Boxster in the same sentence. BMW even had the coupe back then, before the Cayman came along if I recall. That's all history now. There's just not the same pedigree and therefore not the same excitement. It would be great to see that rekindled, but this Z5 doesn't sound like it's going to get BMW there.
Well said - there is a world of difference, especially with the Jag. They're just in a different league than what we've seen in this segment from BMW.

I think the 718 Cayman/Boxster will tell us something about whether a 4 cylinder premium sports car can be successful - there's a lot of skepticism from the P car diehards...but I think that the reduction in cylinders was done in the 718 as a method by which to distinguish the 911. You want a flat 6 wail? You gotta get a 911...
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      06-23-2016, 08:49 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonNW View Post
Serious question, why does a "sports car" need a "sports version"? (Edit: I don't mean a hardcore version, that's another debate.)

Perhaps this has been the problem with Z cars all along. The base models have been quite pedestrian, and never held a stick against the industry benchmark Boxster. The M variants, while neat, have largely been small volume compromised afterthoughts.

Whatever is in the card for Z, I hope something is competitive with the Boxster. I've been close to jumping to that camp for a while now.
I own a 2004 Z4 3.0i sport pack which has replaced a 1st get Boxster sport pack. While the Boxster held an edge in steering feel, handling wise I can assure you the two are comparable. But the Z is much better put together and more reliable, has the better engine and transmission, and since I don't have to worry about the engine grenading all the time, I drive it harder and enjoy it more.

There is nothing pedestrian about it, it's a sports car, a real roadster.

The thing weighs under 3000 lbs. All BMW has to do is make the Z5 more like the first gen Z4 and stick a 6 cylinder engine in it - now that the Boxster has switched to uninspiring turbo fours, it might get easily beat.
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      06-23-2016, 10:26 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Sure, but as you had said earlier and again mention here, Power eDrive is not currently planned for this car either.

It's true that a lighter car needs less power to compete with a heavier car, but in this market you are more likely to get enthusiasts on board by coming out swinging and taking the segment by storm. I just don't see that happening with an I4 and I6. I'm sure it'll be a fine car, just as the outgoing Z4 was. But M3 owners who were contemplating a sports car used to talk about the Z4 M and the Boxster in the same sentence. BMW even had the coupe back then, before the Cayman came along if I recall. That's all history now. There's just not the same pedigree and therefore not the same excitement. It would be great to see that rekindled, but this Z5 doesn't sound like it's going to get BMW there.
Not to mention the exhaust sounds from the F Type compared to typical BMWs.
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      06-23-2016, 10:29 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Well said - there is a world of difference, especially with the Jag. They're just in a different league than what we've seen in this segment from BMW.

I think the 718 Cayman/Boxster will tell us something about whether a 4 cylinder premium sports car can be successful - there's a lot of skepticism from the P car diehards...but I think that the reduction in cylinders was done in the 718 as a method by which to distinguish the 911. You want a flat 6 wail? You gotta get a 911...
I can personally say that the 4 cylinder turned me off the 718 and I ordered an M4 instead. I had a Subaru already. In my mind Porsche and H6 engines are gospel and anything else is blasphemy.
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      06-23-2016, 10:32 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
I don't think a Z5 with xDrive is on the cards. Why can't the BMW demonstrate the similar levels of power but with less cylinders?
Its the change which is coming and not necessarily for this car but the BMW Power eDrive power train is a six cylinder albeit assisted drivetrain with 670PS. It illustrates a possible future for performance.
And besides the Jaguar is not a light car.
my first 3 cars were a 2000 Z3 M Roadster, 2004 Z4, 2006 M Coupe (all used). Obviously I have a soft spot for BMW roadsters, even with its weight issues the F-Type is an amazing car for the price (price/performance), I am just hoping if BMW is going to be at the same price they will also compete performance wise, they also need to realize AWD is needed to put the power down, the M3 has already shown these issues (when all these cars had under 400HP traction was never an issue, even the light weight ones). Obviously if all we are going to see is the I4 and I6, AWD is not needed, I was speaking more to the possibility of a full blown M, OR if we see a M50i with say 450 HP, that could use xdrive...
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      06-23-2016, 11:59 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I own a 2004 Z4 3.0i sport pack which has replaced a 1st get Boxster sport pack. While the Boxster held an edge in steering feel, handling wise I can assure you the two are comparable. But the Z is much better put together and more reliable, has the better engine and transmission, and since I don't have to worry about the engine grenading all the time, I drive it harder and enjoy it more.

There is nothing pedestrian about it, it's a sports car, a real roadster.

The thing weighs under 3000 lbs. All BMW has to do is make the Z5 more like the first gen Z4 and stick a 6 cylinder engine in it - now that the Boxster has switched to uninspiring turbo fours, it might get easily beat.
I had an '04 3.0 sport too and loved it dearly, felt much more nimble than the M and the M54 makes such an amazing wail. Somebody will still have to pry the M from my cold dead hands, but the 3.0i is a fantastic car as well that has more than earned its supper

For Z5, I wonder which 6 will find its way under the hood. Boosted B58? S55 in the (hopefully real) M? Water injection a la GTS? I'm doubtful because of the track record BMW has with this lineup, but a man can dream
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      06-23-2016, 08:28 PM   #60
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I do hope they keep some of the conveniences of the current Z4. The trunk is downright useful (as opposed to the one in the Jaguar), for example.
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      06-24-2016, 02:51 AM   #61
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What if vs What Is

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonNW View Post
Serious question, why does a "sports car" need a "sports version"? (Edit: I don't mean a hardcore version, that's another debate.)

Perhaps this has been the problem with Z cars all along. The base models have been quite pedestrian, and never held a stick against the industry benchmark Boxster. The M variants, while neat, have largely been small volume compromised afterthoughts.

What if Z was a sports car marque in it's own right? //M has really been an in-house tuner badge for all cars other than the M1. What if the Z was a real sports car out of the gate without the need for a tuner badge?

I wonder if this is what SCOTT means when he says Z is relaunching as it's own brand. I would really appreciate that approach.

Whatever is in the card for Z, I hope something is competitive with the Boxster. I've been close to jumping to that camp for a while now.
If that were the case we would not have something like Ferrari 458 Speciale, AMG GT Black (coming soon), GT4, 911 RS, and all the amazing extreme versions of sports cars based on already amazing sports cars.

The only limits we put on ourselves are the limits we actually choose to put on ourselves.
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