F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > B58 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > B58 Log Review Thread
GetBMWParts
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-05-2019, 04:39 AM   #67
IMS-340C
Major
IMS-340C's Avatar
Egypt
395
Rep
1,010
Posts

Drives: Self Tuned 340i 8AT RWD
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Cairo

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
octane isn't as big of an issue as fueling for boost. you just need to keep afrs in control. you can run a lot of boost and less timing to make similar power.

boost limitation is based on fuel cap
timing limitation is based on octane

both have an efficiency range where going past the peak point will not make more power or could lose power.
I thought we agreed that better timing is more important than more boost

If power is the same why run higher boost and put stress on the components.

Also more boost will consume more fuel which will not combust properly as a result of the retarded timing which will lead to less efficiency.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 05:47 AM   #68
enemigo13
Lieutenant
247
Rep
500
Posts

Drives: F32 LCI 440xi citrineblack
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: LT

iTrader: (0)

higher boost with lower ignition timing than with lower boost will generate bigger power. according to your logic - best thing would be run B58 natural aspirated with 32 degrees of ignition timing. Sadly, but you will get ~250hp only, not 430hp. Using more load, ignition timing will not stay the same, look at OEM ignition tables vs rpm vs load. Yes, timing is important, but without burning more fuel/air mixture you will not get power. Increasing boost is the main reason why you can increase 30-40% of power for turbo engines. Increasing timing with the same boost will end up ~5% gains with good fuel only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
I thought we agreed that better timing is more important than more boost

If power is the same why run higher boost and put stress on the components.

Also more boost will consume more fuel which will not combust properly as a result of the retarded timing which will lead to less efficiency.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 06:04 AM   #69
kern417
Cheapskate
4442
Rep
4,992
Posts

Drives: 2018 440i |2016 340i | 2010 X5
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by YuminNuman View Post
What operating temp do you guys typically see? Mine has always been right at 230F .. which seems kinda high but it's about 40% up on the gauge so I figure that's where it wants to be. Oil / coolant temp both sit right around there. Still though I'm used to 210 being high on most other cars. I'd like to upgrade some of the cooling / make it kick on earlier.
same. on my vw it floats around 200. If it gets above 212 then everything cranks up. I've seen it get as high as 220 but then it drops down very quickly with all the pumps/fans running at max flow. But these cars (and from what i've seen, BMWs in general) run hot.

My current logs show cooler temps but in the peak of summer i was seeing above 220 too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
23psi with stock turbo WHERE? yes, at 3000rpm it is possible, if you wont crash hpfp, and it is possible without crashing with additional fueling. not possible at 6000+ rpm for sure, so who needs 23psi at 3000rpm?
I think this philosophy is a big part of it. Again, I'm used to stage 1 tunes running 20+ psi and I don't see why ours couldn't. But boost tends to drop off at the higher RPMs. Which it should with a smaller turbo. But to maintain the top end feel of the B58, they keep the boost flat. To get the most area under the curve, it makes sense to add boost in the mid range if there's enough fuel. It won't feel as satisfying, but it'll be faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
I thought we agreed that better timing is more important than more boost

If power is the same why run higher boost and put stress on the components.

Also more boost will consume more fuel which will not combust properly as a result of the retarded timing which will lead to less efficiency.
no i'm not saying that timing isn't important. i'm just saying that octane isn't as big of an influence on how much boost you can run. it's primarily fuel. It's up to the tuner how they want to bridge that balance but it makes the most sense to try several combinations of boost and timing across the range to see what's making the most power.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by umizoomi View Post
As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
Youtube/Instagram/TikTok: @kern417
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 06:39 AM   #70
IMS-340C
Major
IMS-340C's Avatar
Egypt
395
Rep
1,010
Posts

Drives: Self Tuned 340i 8AT RWD
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Cairo

iTrader: (0)

No, best thing is to find the best balance between boost and timing.

Which is the highest boost before the engine knocks.

Go back to the basics of how an engine works, the air fuel mixture ignites near TDC pushing the piston and rotating the crankshaft.

Whatever amount of Fuel and Air you push into the cylinder are useless if ignition occurs way below TDC the piston will not have enough force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
higher boost with lower ignition timing than with lower boost will generate bigger power. according to your logic - best thing would be run B58 natural aspirated with 32 degrees of ignition timing. Sadly, but you will get ~250hp only, not 430hp. Using more load, ignition timing will not stay the same, look at OEM ignition tables vs rpm vs load. Yes, timing is important, but without burning more fuel/air mixture you will not get power. Increasing boost is the main reason why you can increase 30-40% of power for turbo engines. Increasing timing with the same boost will end up ~5% gains with good fuel only.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 06:57 AM   #71
enemigo13
Lieutenant
247
Rep
500
Posts

Drives: F32 LCI 440xi citrineblack
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: LT

iTrader: (0)

more loaded cylinder will usually need less timing advance as more dense mixture will burn faster and too much advance using fast burning mixture = ignition before TDC. So, usually oem ignition tables are made minus ~1 degree of timing advance per +10% load. E85 can use much more advanced timing because ethanol is burning slow and you need to ignite it way before TDC to make efficient burn. Ignition and knock are not the only limitations, turbocharger flow is very important parameter also, bigger turbo with the same boost can make ~50hp more than same boost with smaller turbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
No, best thing is to find the best balance between boost and timing.

Which is the highest boost before the engine knocks.

Go back to the basics of how an engine works, the air fuel mixture ignites near TDC pushing the piston and rotating the crankshaft.

Whatever amount of Fuel and Air you push into the cylinder are useless if ignition occurs way below TDC the piston will not have enough force.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 07:23 AM   #72
IMS-340C
Major
IMS-340C's Avatar
Egypt
395
Rep
1,010
Posts

Drives: Self Tuned 340i 8AT RWD
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Cairo

iTrader: (0)

You are actually saying the same thing.

At high RPM the piston actually moves faster than the time it takes the air fuel mixture to fully combust, that's why you need to start the ignition earlier (Timing Advance)

If full combustion happens before TDC engine will knock, If much later you will lose power.

To cut a long story short whatever fuel you are using you want the air fuel mixture to fully combust at the same point the piston is just beginning to descend from TDC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
more loaded cylinder will usually need less timing advance as more dense mixture will burn faster and too much advance using fast burning mixture = ignition before TDC. So, usually oem ignition tables are made minus ~1 degree of timing advance per +10% load. E85 can use much more advanced timing because ethanol is burning slow and you need to ignite it way before TDC to make efficient burn. Ignition and knock are not the only limitations, turbocharger flow is very important parameter also, bigger turbo with the same boost can make ~50hp more than same boost with smaller turbo.

Last edited by IMS-340C; 09-05-2019 at 08:01 AM..
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 02:56 PM   #73
SC_B5X
Built Motor F30 340i
SC_B5X's Avatar
401
Rep
257
Posts

Drives: Built Motor 2016 BMW 340i
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
looking very powerful 187.5% load at 6000rpm with 15deg of timing, ~500hp?
No clue. If I had to guess maybe 450-470whp. But wont know until I get it on a dyno.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 03:15 PM   #74
Solid67
Lieutenant
United_States
185
Rep
458
Posts

Drives: 2019 M240i xDrive MP Edition
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Fairfax, VA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC_B5X View Post
No clue. If I had to guess maybe 450-470whp. But wont know until I get it on a dyno.
Do you know or can you guestimate what your octane is with E30+Meth?
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 03:37 PM   #75
SC_B5X
Built Motor F30 340i
SC_B5X's Avatar
401
Rep
257
Posts

Drives: Built Motor 2016 BMW 340i
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
Do you know or can you guestimate what your octane is with E30+Meth?
With the meth i'm unsure, but on E28 (lowered it a bit because fuel pressure was dropping) it's calculated at 96oct. I'm not sure how much octane the meth adds (running Snow Performance Boost Juice). I do plan on buying pure methanol and mixing it 70(meth)/30(water) to see if it helps at all with minor timing corrections.

Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 03:52 PM   #76
Solid67
Lieutenant
United_States
185
Rep
458
Posts

Drives: 2019 M240i xDrive MP Edition
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Fairfax, VA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC_B5X View Post
With the meth i'm unsure, but on E28 (lowered it a bit because fuel pressure was dropping) it's calculated at 96oct. I'm not sure how much octane the meth adds (running Snow Performance Boost Juice). I do plan on buying pure methanol and mixing it 70(meth)/30(water) to see if it helps at all with minor timing corrections.

Is the HPFP behavior different on everyone's car? I have yet to see my HPFP dip below 2000psi and I'm running BM3 Stg 2 E30 OTS, xHP Stg 3 TCU Flash, ER catless dp, MPPSK exhaust, FTP intake + intake pipe, FTP chargepipe and NGK 94201 gapped to .022. My E30 blends are really more like E35-E36 as I rather be on the higher side than lower side.

Here is a log I took yesterday on my way home from work.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d703e2bc090c6192c62f3d9
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 03:55 PM   #77
Solid67
Lieutenant
United_States
185
Rep
458
Posts

Drives: 2019 M240i xDrive MP Edition
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Fairfax, VA

iTrader: (0)

Lol nevermind, just went back and looked at some other logs and the lowest its gotten is 1500psi. Seems like I'm starting to get close to the edge.
Appreciate 0
      09-05-2019, 04:36 PM   #78
hermesromeror
New Member
Chile
4
Rep
29
Posts

Drives: F30 340i
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Santiago

iTrader: (0)

Car: 340i, stock, MHD Stage 1, RON 97

https://datazap.me/u/hermesromeror/l...og=0&data=3-15
Appreciate 1
kern4174442.00
      09-05-2019, 06:47 PM   #79
OzBMR
Captain
OzBMR's Avatar
Australia
575
Rep
585
Posts

Drives: BMW M140i
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brisbane, Australia

iTrader: (0)

Your log looks really good. I'm running a high boost, low timing setup, peak boost 22PSI then pretty well 20 PSI flat to 6000 RPM, so I'm fuel limited to about E12 and I consistently see HPFP pressures drop to about 1300 PSI, but only between 3800 - 4500 RPM. This is because the HPFP is a lobe based design and at peak torque/Load the RPM limits the pump capacity. At the drag strip where the car is always >5000 RPM I've noticed HPFP stays 2500 PSI+

You should try ramping your Load/boost target up from 5000 RPM, you've got plenty of fuel pressure to play with there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
Lol nevermind, just went back and looked at some other logs and the lowest its gotten is 1500psi. Seems like I'm starting to get close to the edge.
__________________
Tesla Model 3 Performance 0 - 60mph 3.1s
M140i LCI Mineral Grey
Dorch Stage 2 HPFP, CG Precision DS-1, XHP, MHD Stage 2 HPFP E30 @ E42 100 - 200 6.96s
Quarter mile 10.93@127mph
Appreciate 1
Solid67185.00
      09-06-2019, 12:33 AM   #80
SC_B5X
Built Motor F30 340i
SC_B5X's Avatar
401
Rep
257
Posts

Drives: Built Motor 2016 BMW 340i
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
Is the HPFP behavior different on everyone's car? I have yet to see my HPFP dip below 2000psi and I'm running BM3 Stg 2 E30 OTS, xHP Stg 3 TCU Flash, ER catless dp, MPPSK exhaust, FTP intake + intake pipe, FTP chargepipe and NGK 94201 gapped to .022. My E30 blends are really more like E35-E36 as I rather be on the higher side than lower side.

Here is a log I took yesterday on my way home from work.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d703e2bc090c6192c62f3d9
I'm running more boost/timing than you are so that could be contributing to why I had to lower mine down to E28, but since I have meth lowering my E85 content didn't hurt too much. I'd love to get an upgraded HPFP, seems like i'm limited by fueling at the moment.
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 03:20 AM   #81
IMS-340C
Major
IMS-340C's Avatar
Egypt
395
Rep
1,010
Posts

Drives: Self Tuned 340i 8AT RWD
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Cairo

iTrader: (0)

You mean 98 RON ? Re you happy with MHD stage 1 tune, Any complaints ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermesromeror View Post
Car: 340i, stock, MHD Stage 1, RON 97

https://datazap.me/u/hermesromeror/l...og=0&data=3-15

Last edited by IMS-340C; 09-06-2019 at 03:53 AM..
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 05:24 AM   #82
hermesromeror
New Member
Chile
4
Rep
29
Posts

Drives: F30 340i
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Santiago

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
You mean 98 RON ? Re you happy with MHD stage 1 tune, Any complaints ?
Sorry, I mean that I use 97 RON gas, and the map is 95 RON. Very happy with the results, I was using JB4 + Bef but I decided to move to MHD ots maps. Any on comments regarding the logs? Thanks
Appreciate 1
IMS-340C394.50
      09-06-2019, 05:52 AM   #83
kern417
Cheapskate
4442
Rep
4,992
Posts

Drives: 2018 440i |2016 340i | 2010 X5
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermesromeror View Post
Sorry, I mean that I use 97 RON gas, and the map is 95 RON. Very happy with the results, I was using JB4 + Bef but I decided to move to MHD ots maps. Any on comments regarding the logs? Thanks
Thanks for posting. The only feedback I have is that you have a lot of timing corrections in the midrange. certain cylinders are pulling 6° or more. Have you regapped your plugs?

I'm jealous that you guys have an actual timing correction metric in your logs. I wish BM3 had that.

Also, get more of your MHD buddies in here
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by umizoomi View Post
As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
Youtube/Instagram/TikTok: @kern417
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 09:12 AM   #84
GT500R
Major
798
Rep
1,219
Posts

Drives: BMW X3M
Join Date: May 2018
Location: NE

iTrader: (0)

https://datazap.me/u/gt500r/2018-x3-...&data=5-6-9-12

MP ECU and ECU tune
93 octane

185-186% load at 6000 rpm

50 lbs/min of air
__________________
X3M Alpine White - SOLD
Fastest Tune Only Record - Mission Performance
10.84@127.43 / +1912 DA NH Dragway |
10.6@130 Dragy / +820 DA The Streets |
NOW: Tesla Model Y Performance
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 01:45 PM   #85
kern417
Cheapskate
4442
Rep
4,992
Posts

Drives: 2018 440i |2016 340i | 2010 X5
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT500R View Post
https://datazap.me/u/gt500r/2018-x3-...&data=5-6-9-12

MP ECU and ECU tune
93 octane

185-186% load at 6000 rpm

50 lbs/min of air
What stage? And can you log again with more parameters? I don't think I'm seeing the whole picture

Lambda is at 0.9 but I'm guessing that's actual. What's the target? I also don't see boost target, but I assume I can subtract 1000 from manifold pressure to get your boost pressure? And timing for cyl 1 only shows 2?

if you could add boost target, lambda target, and ignition timing for all cylinders it'll show the full picture.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by umizoomi View Post
As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
Youtube/Instagram/TikTok: @kern417
Appreciate 0
      09-06-2019, 03:04 PM   #86
GT500R
Major
798
Rep
1,219
Posts

Drives: BMW X3M
Join Date: May 2018
Location: NE

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
What stage? And can you log again with more parameters? I don't think I'm seeing the whole picture

Lambda is at 0.9 but I'm guessing that's actual. What's the target? I also don't see boost target, but I assume I can subtract 1000 from manifold pressure to get your boost pressure? And timing for cyl 1 only shows 2?

if you could add boost target, lambda target, and ignition timing for all cylinders it'll show the full picture.
Stage 2.5, lambda is actual.

New to logging so trying to figure it out. Only have ignition timing for 1 cylinder.
__________________
X3M Alpine White - SOLD
Fastest Tune Only Record - Mission Performance
10.84@127.43 / +1912 DA NH Dragway |
10.6@130 Dragy / +820 DA The Streets |
NOW: Tesla Model Y Performance
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2019, 03:21 PM   #87
kern417
Cheapskate
4442
Rep
4,992
Posts

Drives: 2018 440i |2016 340i | 2010 X5
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT500R View Post
Stage 2.5, lambda is actual.

New to logging so trying to figure it out. Only have ignition timing for 1 cylinder.
it's cool, i'd just try again to show all cylinders. you never know if cylinder 1 is pulling timing without either logging the timing correction or the other cylinders to compare.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by umizoomi View Post
As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
Youtube/Instagram/TikTok: @kern417
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2019, 05:26 PM   #88
PURE340i
Banned
104
Rep
231
Posts

Drives: 2018 BMW 340i & 2011 335d
Join Date: May 2017
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

So for those of us with Pure turbos, we obviously need to crank up the boost to take advantage of it. How do we go about timing then if a Pure turbo is boosting 24-25 psi.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:17 AM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST