What is the next step after CAI, CP, FMIC, DP and tune?

ceedawg · 09-23-2018, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Ask

What are you referencing? Who is bringing something new to the marketplace?

There are vendors that I know of that will be announcing some major power upgrades for the N55 motor that will easily have the N55 motored cars surpass 450whp. Coming very very soon I'm told towards this years end.

ceedawg · 09-23-2018, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcgrb

JB4!!

Not!!

The flashes give more power and better driveability!

mbanks21 · 09-23-2018, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcgrb

JB4!!

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not

F30_SixSpeed · 09-23-2018, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Ask

Purely from a horsepower/torque standpoint, what comes next after CAI, CP, FMIC, DP and a tune? I have a '12 335i sedan - PWG N55. What is the next logical power adder I should consider? I am thinking fuel delivery, meth injection, and maybe a bigger turbo. What other options are there? There is tons of information here for all the FBO options, but not many that I can find for beyond that point (...and maybe my search skills are lacking as well...). Just curious where you folks would spend your money if you had up to about $5,000 to spend on squeezing more out of the 3.0 liter?
I recognize that traction and transmission longevity become an issue as the power goes up, but for the sake of this post let's keep to power adders only. Thanks in advance!

I would recommend bigger turbo and more fuel. More importantly don't just concentrate on peak numbers, but also the power delivery. Stock PWG turbos run out of steam after 5k rpm, so even though they make nice power and good torque down low (kicks your back in your seat) top end falls off pretty hard... EWG does as well, but holds boost a lot better to redline so its not as bad. A bigger turbo like Pure Stage 2 fixes that. I made good power on stock turbo, but I saw the real difference after 5.5k to redline once I added PS2. 50-75whp+ at redline feels quite faster then the stocker.

The main bottleneck is the stock fuel system. Can't deliver enough fuel once you're in ~430whp mark (roughly - give or take some.)

I did 409 whp / 455trq on 15 psi and 453 whp / 466trq on 18 psi (with a crashing HPFP) on 93 octane with PS2, FBO, Tune on stock fuel system. I am now running a new tune thats running 16-17 with perfect fuel pressure throughout and better timing... hopefully can throw her back on the dyno soon.

A bigger turbo is definitely an upgrade (even on lower boost - at least its efficient) but I'd probably say plan for more fuel down the line if you want to make the best of it. 16-17 psi is fun, 20+ psi would be beastly! (500whp+)

Hope that helps.

Just Ask · 09-23-2018, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F30_SixSpeed

Hope that helps.

It does, immensely.
When you mention fuel upgrade, are we talking simply a higher flow pump or a higher flow pump with fuel lines to handle the extra fuel flow? Are the stock fuel injectors able to support up to 500 HP? In other words, will a simple fuel pump swap address the needs of the PS2 turbo upgrade?

F30_SixSpeed · 09-23-2018, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Ask

It does, immensely.
When you mention fuel upgrade, are we talking simply a higher flow pump or a higher flow pump with fuel lines to handle the extra fuel flow? Are the stock fuel injectors able to support up to 500 HP? In other words, will a simple fuel pump swap address the needs of the PS2 turbo upgrade?

There are a few options for us n55 guys. Injectors aren't the problem, they spray fine... its the HPFP that can't keep up and crashes.

1. HPFP upgrade - expensive and new. Few early adaptors are running it with promising results. http://tuningtechfs.com/ttfs-n55-hig...p-single-pump/
2. Meth Injection for fuel
3. Port Injection

I prefer option 1 the HPFP upgrade as the DME has complete control of the pump/fuel. With Meth or PI you have to run an external controller or JB4 (which I'm not a fan of) and to me it effects drivability with the hesitations (to some may not mind, drove me crazy lol). I ran JB4 for 1.5 years and full flash is much smoother. HPFP supposedly supports 20+ psi but haven't seen a lot of results yet. Thinking about picking one up down the line though. Meth and Port Injection are tried and proven... so thats a good option Im just not a fan of the external controller.

Just Ask · 09-23-2018, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F30_SixSpeed

I prefer option 1 the HPFP upgrade as the DME has complete control of the pump/fuel. With Meth or PI you have to run an external controller or JB4 (which I'm not a fan of) and to me it effects drivability with the hesitations (to some may not mind, drove me crazy lol). I ran JB4 for 1.5 years and full flash is much smoother. HPFP supposedly supports 20+ psi but haven't seen a lot of results yet. Thinking about picking one up down the line though. Meth and Port Injection are tried and proven... so thats a good option Im just not a fan of the external controller.

Thanks for the link!
I see the junction you are at...it's essentially going to cost you a minimum $2300 to get to the next level. At the boost levels you are currently at, using a controller of any sort (even a $50 hobbs switch on the CP....lol) is just not something I would want to do either. Your post has helped immensely, thank you!

bradsm87 · 09-23-2018, 10:32 PM

Keep in mind that there are still really good gains going to PS2 with stock fuel system, especially going from PWG. The bigger turbo allows you to safely run a little leaner, more timing, way lower IAT, way lower exhaust back pressure. This all means you can make more power on lower boost and more power for a given fuel flow limit. You also don't get anywhere near as much of a severe drop-off past 5000rpm.

Logicoeur · 09-24-2018, 03:31 PM

I'd like to also point out that going ps2 does also bring in some turbo lag. You shift the usable power band forward in the rpm range ~1.5k. So below 3k you will feel relatively slow compared to stock, then you get kicked in the ass. That's not very fun on the street as the top end is pretty unusable for reasonable drivers. You have to go to the track or strip to really get your moneys out of going ps2. This is all from reading the threads and looking at the graphs around here on the forum

bradsm87 · 09-24-2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logicoeur

I'd like to also point out that going ps2 does also being in some turbo lag. You shift the usable power band forward in the rpm range ~1.5k. So below 3k you will feel relatively slow compared to stock, then you get kicked in the ass. That's not very fun on the street as the top end is pretty unusable for reasonable drivers. You have to go to the track or strip to really get your moneys out of going ps2. This is all from reading the threads and looking at the graphs around here on the forum

Agreed. This is why we need something a little smaller than the PS2.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1533984

ceedawg · 09-24-2018, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradsm87

Agreed. This is why we need something a little smaller than the PS2.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1533984

I do not think anyone will offer anything smaller than PS2 other than PS1. You may have comparable setups I am guessing and the offerings that will be coming out will be TS manifolds ,EWG,PWG,and different size offerings but I hardly doubt smaller than PS2 based on the whp numbers I have been quoted. These setups will definitely offer more midrange and topend power I am sure.

Will be perhaps more comparable to Bigboost offerings and Speedtech offerings and 93 Octane friendly at over 450whp to 500whp or 500whp + with E85. All depending also on the fueling setup of course and tune which I believe will be offered with the kits.

Hey they have some built 4 cyl EVOs making 600whp on 93 oct,big turbo,big inj,tune,fuelpumps and no E85.

6 cylinder will not even need as much boost as a built 4 cylinder to make the same hp and on 93 octane. I could see it happen. Will be based on fueling and tune.

bradsm87 · 09-24-2018, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceedawg

I do not think anyone will offer anything smaller than PS2 other than PS1. You may have comparable setups I am guessing and the offerings that will be coming out will be TS manifolds ,EWG,PWG,and different size offerings but I hardly doubt smaller than PS2 based on the whp numbers I have been quoted. These setups will definitely offer more midrange and topend power I am sure.

Will be perhaps more comparable to Bigboost offerings and Speedtech offerings and 93 Octane friendly at over 450whp to 500whp or 500whp + with E85. All depending also on the fueling setup of course and tune which I believe will be offered with the kits.

Hey they have some built 4 cyl EVOs making 600whp on 93 oct,big turbo,big inj,tune,fuelpumps and no E85.

6 cylinder will not even need as much boost as a built 4 cylinder to make the same hp and on 93 octane. I could see it happen. Will be based on fueling and tune.

I don't really care about peak power numbers of this turbo pushed to the limit vs that turbo pushed to the limit. Someone just a few posts above mentioned the PS2 has very noticeable lag compared to stock. Only going smaller can improve this. The turbo is already twin scroll and has a twin wall exhaust manifold with very short runners. A downsize of the wheels is the way to improve this.

ceedawg · 09-24-2018, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradsm87

I don't really care about peak power numbers of this turbo pushed to the limit vs that turbo pushed to the limit. Someone just a few posts above mentioned the PS2 has very noticeable lag compared to stock. Only going smaller can improve this. The turbo is already twin scroll and has a twin wall exhaust manifold with very short runners. A downsize of the wheels is the way to improve this.

PS1 then😎

bradsm87 · 09-25-2018, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceedawg

PS1 then😎

The tiny stock turbine is a bad match to the much bigger compressor on the PS1. A little bigger turbine would perform noticeably better in all areas than a PS1. Let's not start this again

HKD126 · 09-25-2018, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceedawg

There are vendors that I know of that will be announcing some major power upgrades for the N55 motor that will easily have the N55 motored cars surpass 450whp. Coming very very soon I'm told towards this years end.

Go on.....

ceedawg · 09-25-2018, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKD126

Go on.....

Where? What more do you want me to say?

ceedawg · 09-25-2018, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradsm87

The tiny stock turbine is a bad match to the much bigger compressor on the PS1. A little bigger turbine would perform noticeably better in all areas than a PS1. Let's not start this again

Well good luck waiting for that.

HKD126 · 09-25-2018, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Where? What more do you want me to say?

What’s being released and who’s releasing it?

ceedawg · 09-25-2018, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKD126

What’s being released and who’s releasing it?

New Single turbo kits for the N55. VTT is one of the vendors. Google it. Thats all I will say for now till the other is 100 percent confirmed.

FastF30 · 09-25-2018, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceedawg

New Single turbo kits for the N55. VTT is one of the vendors. Google it. Thats all I will say for now till the other is 100 percent confirmed.

Is their website correct.... New Stage1 turbo for basically $1475... I'm all in for that...

To bad their in Cali or I would definitely have them install it for another $2500... sounds like a great set-up for under $3,975

Or is there something else coming out...

this is very interesting about oil they recommend...

Forced Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil.pdf

JaredG_F30 · 09-25-2018, 01:24 PM

Damn the installation price for RWD is only $600. Is it really that easy to swap turbos? I haven't really considered it (looking at LSD and coilovers first) but for the price it's tempting. I'm assuming LPFP and PI is needed as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastF30

Is their website correct.... New Stage1 turbo for basically $1475... I'm all in for that...

To bad their in Cali or I would definitely have them install it for another $2500... sounds like a great set-up for under $3,975

Or is there something else coming out...

this is very interesting about oil they recommend...

Attachment 1905755

FastF30 · 09-25-2018, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaredG_F30

Damn the installation price for RWD is only $600. Is it really that easy to swap turbos? I haven't really considered it (looking at LSD and coilovers first) but for the price it's tempting. I'm assuming LPFP and PI is needed as well.

Yea... lucky you... when I saw that ... I went "Figures"... the site says it's undetectable... so means uses a stock tune?... wondering what would happen when a Flash tune is involved if that's the case to begin with concerning being used with a stock tune...

The reason I'm more interested in this than a bigger turbo has to do with the streetability lag issue...

if both a large turbo and this one raced in a 1/8mile (100mph) and both pushing 500whp... I beat stage1 one would win due to spool-up response...

and who's crazy enough to race over a 100mph on the street... I'm sure many... but not me...

09-23-2018, 10:32 PM	#30
bradsm87 Lieutenant Colonel 596 Rep 1,693 Posts Drives: F25 LCI xDrive30d Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Australia iTrader: (0)	Keep in mind that there are still really good gains going to PS2 with stock fuel system, especially going from PWG. The bigger turbo allows you to safely run a little leaner, more timing, way lower IAT, way lower exhaust back pressure. This all means you can make more power on lower boost and more power for a given fuel flow limit. You also don't get anywhere near as much of a severe drop-off past 5000rpm.
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09-24-2018, 03:31 PM	#31
Logicoeur Lieutenant Colonel 993 Rep 1,934 Posts Drives: F30 335i xDrive Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Boston iTrader: (0)	I'd like to also point out that going ps2 does also bring in some turbo lag. You shift the usable power band forward in the rpm range ~1.5k. So below 3k you will feel relatively slow compared to stock, then you get kicked in the ass. That's not very fun on the street as the top end is pretty unusable for reasonable drivers. You have to go to the track or strip to really get your moneys out of going ps2. This is all from reading the threads and looking at the graphs around here on the forum __________________ F30 335iX \| Remus Axleback \| Fabspeed Catted DP \| VRSF Comp IC \| 18X9 ET35 19lb MT1 \| 255/40/18 ECS \| Ohlins RT Millway Street \| Millway Control Arm Bushings \| Turner Endlinks \| TMH 75mm 14x1.5 Studs \| BMW MPerf LSD \| XDelete \| Pipercross Filter \| MHD Stg2 93
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