F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > Cosmetic Maintenance: Wash, Wax, Detailing, Repairs > DIY: An Enthusiasts Guide to Basic Detailing
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-20-2019, 04:50 AM   #23
B1ue52
Private First Class
England
92
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: F32 420d M Sport
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaranF32 View Post
Fantastic write up!

I've personally got Cquartz UK 3.0 with Jescar Powerlock+ and Collinite 845. Could be argued that having a sealant and wax on top of a ceramic coating is pointless as it defeats the objective of the coating. I'd rather have the extra protection and layer them.

Defo learnt some things reading this post! A big thank you for taking the time to write this up. I've put less effort into uni assignments
Haha, thanks man... car before Uni every time!!!

I don't think it is a waste of time at all, in fact I would highly recommend it as per my comments above where I talk about layering two coatings to achieve different things. Your quartz is giving you one benefit, the sealant and wax another, in this case better hydrophobic response.

My only negative views of products like Powerlock are when they are compared directly to a nano coating which is not a good comparison at all. It's a good product in its own right, when you understand what it is and isn't doing, like you obviously do

The only thing I would suggest as an improvement is to ditch the powerlock and wax and switch it up to EXOv4 as a top layer. You would be very impressed, then use C2 as a top up if like me you miss waxing your car.

Thanks for the feedback
Appreciate 1
TaranF32110.50

      10-14-2019, 04:43 AM   #24
Skyhigh
Major
Skyhigh's Avatar
375
Rep
1,118
Posts

Drives: BMW F36
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by B1ue52 View Post
A coating (when I say coating, I am referring to a chemically bonded nano coating that could be ceramic, liquid quartz etc) is applied to protect your car from all of the above, but in addition will make it considerably more scratch resistant.
Could you elaborate on the above? Any reference to physical, mechanical tests supporting that?

While in theory any layer of any substance is a physical barrier (on a micro level), I personally do not believe coatings can, in any meaningful way, increase the scratch resistance of the paintjob. They may best case help delay the visible effect of say swirls from automatic car washers, but we, the detailing enthusiasts who apply waxes and protective coats don't use automatic brush washers, do we?
After all, we are talking about a coating with a few NANOmeters thickness.
But hey - looking forward to some empirical data, I may be wrong.

Quote:
Sealants on the other hand do provide good, if very temporary (around a month) hydrophobic properties and gloss enhancement but not really any better than a traditional carnauba wax (when I say wax I mean a hard/paste wax in a tub, not a liquid wax) – Indeed there are some waxes out there that will genuinely last for around a year, but they are incredibly expensive at around 1000 per tub.
Can't agree with that. Plenty of sealants out there advertised with a durability of up to 6-12 months. Even if that is just marketing, the durability is way longer than 1 month.

Same with wax - meet Soft 99 Fusso Coat - a wax which has been proven (by customers) to in fact last up to 1 year and costs not 1000, but 20 GBP! The hydrophobic qualities are more or less best in class and much better than most coatings.

Apart from that - thank you for taking the time! The guide does provide some very useful tips and information which one normally needs a lot of time to collect from different sources.
__________________
"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in cars and women."

Last edited by Skyhigh; 10-14-2019 at 05:19 AM..
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2019, 05:19 AM   #25
B1ue52
Private First Class
England
92
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: F32 420d M Sport
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Could you elaborate on the above? Any reference to physical, mechanical tests supporting that?

While in theory any layer of any substance is a physical barrier (on a micro level), I personally do not believe coatings can, in any meaningful way, increase the scratch resistance of the paintjob. But hey - looking forward to some empirical data, I may be wrong.



Can't agree with that. Plenty of sealants out there advertised with a durability of up to 6-12 months. Even if that is just marketing, the durability is way longer than 1 month.

Same with wax - meet Soft 99 Fusso Coat - a wax which has been proven (by customers) to in fact last up to 1 year and costs not 1000, but 20 GBP! The hydrophobic qualities are more or less best in class and much better than most coatings.

Apart from that - thank you for taking the time! The guide does provide some very useful tips and information which one normally needs a lot of time to collect from different sources.

No worries. If you want empirical evidence, look on any manufactures website like Gtechniq and you will find all the studies and "proof" you would need. If you want anecdotal evidence, then before I coated my EB11 F32, I was forever removing scratches out of it. BMW paint is hard, but not very scratch resistant. In the 2 months or so since coating it with C1, I haven't removed a single scratch and the same applies to every other car I have coated in the past.

Regards the comments on wax, whilst major generalisations for what is essentially a basic guide, I am commenting on my own experience of using a large proportion of the brands out there, both recreationally and professionally and also on occasion as a product tester.

Test the hydro performance of Fusso after a month, it has majorly degraded since first applying to the point of needing reapplication. I say that from experience as I was one of the first people in the UK to use it back when you had to personally import it from Japan. Does it look great when you apply it? Sure, it looks and feels slick as hell. But is has so much silicone (or polymer, I cant remember) in it that after even 24 hours on a car it will attract so much dust its unbearable to live with. I tried it extensively on a white car just to prove the point around 8 years ago. A nano coating on the other hand, unlike any wax or sealant, has no sticky properties, so your car wont attract dust and it wont stick to it, anything that lands on your car will simply blow off, the same cant be said for waxes and sealants. Apply Fusso coat or something similar in the middle of pollen season and tell me your car isn't covered within 24 hours of application.

In regards to how does Fusso stack up to other sealants and waxes, I have no complaints, it's a good product in a show and shine sense, but like all other sealants and waxes doesn't even begin to compare to 2 layer system nano coatings for all the reasons I wrote above.

You can read all the data you like, regardless of the product or type of product you will have to take it with a pinch of salt as a lot of it is marketing BS, especially from the auto store type brands, so try it yourself instead and you will never go back.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2019, 05:50 AM   #26
Skyhigh
Major
Skyhigh's Avatar
375
Rep
1,118
Posts

Drives: BMW F36
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by B1ue52 View Post
No worries. If you want empirical evidence, look on any manufactures website like Gtechniq and you will find all the studies and "proof" you would need.
Being an engineer, I typically mistrust marketing setups. I'd like to see independent tests. Can be very simple - (fine metal) brush against a partially coated surface and comparing the impact.

Quote:
If you want anecdotal evidence, then before I coated my EB11 F32, I was forever removing scratches out of it. BMW paint is hard, but not very scratch resistant. In the 2 months or so since coating it with C1, I haven't removed a single scratch and the same applies to every other car I have coated in the past.
That's fine but way too subjective. Under normal circumstances you should not be having scratches too often any way, apart from stone chips (unless you do automatic car washing).

Quote:
Regards the comments on wax, whilst major generalisations for what is essentially a basic guide, I am commenting on my own experience of using a large proportion of the brands out there, both recreationally and professionally and also on occasion as a product tester.
I appreciate that. My point was that my experience with a number of waxes is very different. Have used waxes from Collinite, Swissvax, Soft99 and BMW and the earliest any has shown any degradation (I must admit Collinite was the weakest and most disappointing amongst them) was about 2 months. Typical durability is 4-8 months. I applied the Fusso Coat just recently so no personal long term experience yet but I am happy to report in a few months.

Quote:
Test the hydro performance of Fusso after a month, it has majorly degraded since first applying to the point of needing reapplication.
There you go (scroll the video to see how majorly it had degraded after exactly 1 month:


After 3 months (and 4000km):


After 6 months (and 10 000km):


I am not a Soft99 sales agent and I am sure that this is not even the most durable wax on the market. Just wanted to give a very popular example that waxes only lasting for 1 month is a complete understatement and quite misleading, as well as that waxes that last up to 1 year cost anywhere near 1000 GBP.

Quote:
I say that from experience as I was one of the first people in the UK to use it back when you had to personally import it from Japan. Does it look great when you apply it? Sure, it looks and feels slick as hell. But is has so much silicone (or polymer, I cant remember) in it that after even 24 hours on a car it will attract so much dust its unbearable to live with. I tried it extensively on a white car just to prove the point around 8 years ago. A nano coating on the other hand, unlike any wax or sealant, has no sticky properties, so your car wont attract dust and it wont stick to it, anything that lands on your car will simply blow off, the same cant be said for waxes and sealants. Apply Fusso coat or something similar in the middle of pollen season and tell me your car isn't covered within 24 hours of application.

In regards to how does Fusso stack up to other sealants and waxes, I have no complaints, it's a good product in a show and shine sense, but like all other sealants and waxes doesn't even begin to compare to 2 layer system nano coatings for all the reasons I wrote above.
I suspect you are correct, but what I am missing in general is a chemical test which proves and demonstrates the resistivity of the various coats to (typical) acidic probes! Everyone is so focused on how the wax/sealant/coating survives itself, but everyone seems to forget that the only (or most important) reason for having any of those is to protect the more valuable substance underneath - the paintjob!

Quote:
You can read all the data you like, regardless of the product or type of product you will have to take it with a pinch of salt as a lot of it is marketing BS, especially from the auto store type brands, so try it yourself instead and you will never go back.
Certainly.
__________________
"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in cars and women."

Last edited by Skyhigh; 10-14-2019 at 06:59 AM..
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2019, 07:17 AM   #27
B1ue52
Private First Class
England
92
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: F32 420d M Sport
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

(don't read any tone in to the following, I am at work and paraphrasing, I am happy to debate)

I can agree with some of what you have said, especially when it comes to evidence of claims, but it isn't my job or intention to prove anything to anyone. My advice comes off the back of nearly 30 years experience using these products in real world scenarios, nothing more. I cant agree with it being misleading. I haven't once said don't use wax, don't use sealants, I have merely stated that in my experience nano coatings are better for reasons I have documented and described. The only thing I have objected to is people on here comparing sealants to coatings, which isn't an apples to apples comparison, so I take umbrage at the comment of being misleading.

The only wax/sealant product I have ever personally used that has a lifespan of around a year is Swissvax Crystal Rock (1000 per tub). Any other of the 100s of products I have used have been around a month in terms of offering visible protection based on their hydrophobic performance, Fusso included and everything else in-between.

I'm not here to sell anything, or even my advice. Take it or leave it, question it, its all good, but so far I have seen nothing but conjecture. My advice based on my experiences with said products both positive and negative is just that, advice, do those that don't have a clue and are often taken in by unsubstantiated advice on products that someone likes, for reasons they have no idea. There is so much bad advice on here about detailing, my only objective is to help people steer clear of it and provide an easy to follow basic, generalised guide to enable people to get started without wasting money, get experience and then make their own mind up as to what works for them. If that is sealant over coating, happy days. If I helped them get to that point without running through loads of products based on bad advice and/or marketing claims then even better.

As for stating "you shouldn't be getting scratches" - What?? How on earth do you know what a real world scenario is for my car? I have 5 kids between the ages of 5 and 18, and an F32... the two don't exactly go hand in hand with school runs and school bags and climbing in and out of the back, so yes, my car is at major risk of being scratched each and every day. With C1 applied, those every day scratches have ceased. With nothing more than a paste or sealant applied, that would not be the case.

My experiences may well be anecdotal, and too subjective for you as an engineer, but I am not here to prove anything to you or provide you with evidence of anything, nor indeed convince you of anything. If you want test data, then it is there to be found on the internet. My intention is as said above, to provide advice based on my own real world testing and experiences with these products.

Use the advice, or don't. Kid yourself that Fusso coat is still protecting your paint in 12 months time, which as we both agree, is the most important thing, but don't ask me to prove it to you. I have proven it to myself and have offered advice based on that and that alone. Like I said, I don't disapprove of using waxes or sealants and am not trying to convince people otherwise. Those videos are the very subjective "proof" you don't yourself trust, so I don't really get the point in them. At best, they prove that one persons experience is different to the next guys. You have theirs, I have provided mine, so when you actually use it yourself in YOUR real world scenario you can make up your own mind. You may love it, you may hate it, but either way is fine by me. However, until you try a nano coating yourself, you have nothing to compare it to other than products of the same ilk. Being an engineer, they should be right up your street.
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2019, 08:03 AM   #28
Skyhigh
Major
Skyhigh's Avatar
375
Rep
1,118
Posts

Drives: BMW F36
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Thinking out loud, if you have a Heavy Duty necessity (e.g. the 5 kids scenario), nothing substitutes PPF. One or 10 layers of nano coating, wax, sealant - you name it - not even a fraction of what a PPF provides.
And again - Might be just me, but I do not trust a ceramic coating can provide meaningful scratch protection. Very convenient for marketing to visualise the coat as a "protective layer", but a few nanometers of layer (wax, sealant or ceramic) can in best case provide some chemical protection + hydrophobic effect. Glad it works for you, placebo or not.

But you said it right - every person's experience is subjectively different. Which is why I am missing an objective test.
For what we know (and I am sure this will be the case), a ceramic coating might be better protecting against some contamination/damage, whilst wax and sealants may offer better protection against other. Just knowing that a ceramic coating "appears" and is advertised to be better is a good starting point, but not enough (for me), especially when expected to rely on a long-term protection from a single application.

This is one of the reasons I personally have chosen to rather do waxing 2-3 times a year (also taking into account that the waxes seem to stick nicely on my 2 cars for waaay longer than 1 month).

All comes down to personal experience and beliefs after all.
__________________
"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in cars and women."
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2019, 09:00 AM   #29
B1ue52
Private First Class
England
92
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: F32 420d M Sport
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

You're correct, PPF would be the best option for me. However, I don't have the money for it, plus I have all the tools, experience and skill to correct anything myself. It is certainly not a placebo though. C1 prevents me getting light weight scratches on my car from bag, clothing, zip and nail rubs, no question. Then factor in the hydro performance and claimed UV protection of EXO (I have no method of testing UV protection), I have the perfect solution for my budget. The only downside as I have mentioned in my original post being that I miss waxing my car.

People who have never had a coating applied and lived with it often have negative, or at best "I need proof" attitudes about them. I get the desire for proof. Afterall, taking fusso as an example.... it's 20 with no real prep required. C1 on the other hand is 80, needs a lot of prep and is more involved to apply, so if I was uneducated on it, yes I would want proof also. I get that. What I don't get is the negative opinions based on nothing. It baffles me.

Take Johnsons Floor wax for example. It works on the same principal. It was a housewives favourite for years. Wipe it on your floor tiles and it makes them glossy, hard wearing and stain and scratch resistant. Millions of people used it for years. No questions asked. Model makers now use it to coat clear plastic parts to give a more glossy appearance, and also to make them scratch resistant. It's the same principal as a nano coating. Are there bad products our there... for sure, typically applied by dealers of German cars. There are other products that compromise themselves by trying to be a hard coat and a hydro coat in one, when you cant have both, hence the two layer system. But why do all the people who hate on coatings happen to be people who have never used one, and by one I mean a proper one, not a dealer or single stage product. It baffles me.

For what it's worth, when talking only about coatings or wax/sealant, I think nano (note I don't often just use the word ceramic) coatings offer the best protection in the following areas:

1. UV
2. Physical Damage
3. Hydrophobicity
4. Fallout
5. Bird Enzymes

I think they also offer the best anti cling properties including dust, pollen, dirt, flies, tar, road grime.

I think that waxes and sealants do a good job at their price point and ease of application at all of the above, with the exception of physical protection and anti cling. Indeed they by their very nature encourage cling of loose particles like dust, brake dust and pollen.

If you want to test it for yourself in an easy to understand test. To this. On your left wheels of your car, front and back, clean them and apply Fusso coat. On your right wheels do the same but apply a nano coat like GTecniq C5 Wheel Armour, or even C1 if you like. Drive for two weeks without washing your car, now clean your wheels with just a hose and tell me which side is cleaner. Even before cleaning you will see a distinct increase in brake dust attached to your fusso wheels. This isn't due to the C5 repelling brake dust, its down to the Fusso attracting it. Its an easy test to prove the theory.

Apply the above to your paintwork, its the same theory.

Then.... should you choose, go and apply a product like C1 to your car with EXO over the top and you will, I am confident, be convinced by the results. They speak for themselves the very next time you wash your car.

Nice debate though
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2019, 09:39 AM   #30
Skyhigh
Major
Skyhigh's Avatar
375
Rep
1,118
Posts

Drives: BMW F36
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Just to be clear - I have no "hating" feelings about any type of products, especially ones I have not tested myself. This said, I am naturally sceptical about everything that is not sufficiently proven. And I do believe it is often what you don't see that matters most.

The problem is that in your last post you used the expression "I think" 3 times, in 3 sentences when it comes to coatings.... I have used it also several times on the same topic. So in reality we don't "know" and your guess is as good as mine.

I disagree that waxes are by nature attracting particles. May be valid for some, but not as a general rule. That's why you also have plenty of waxes specifically designed for rims. Whether Fusso is suitable for rims - no clue. But my experience is that (brake) dust and tar is much easier washed away from wax in comparison to naked clearcoat. And a clearcoat is certainly comparable (hardness-wise) to a coat, so the same logic should have applied there.

So just to underline again - I am neither pro- nor against ceramic (or any other type of) coatings. I just think that no single product is universally better, with only advantages but no disadvantages.
__________________
"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in cars and women."
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2019, 01:45 PM   #31
B1ue52
Private First Class
England
92
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: F32 420d M Sport
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

I wasn't accusing you of being a hater. I was accommodating you in the I require proof camp, which I agree with. The rest was general observation that seems to frequent these forums. I've never used a nano coat but I hate them brigade.

As for using the word think. Yep, totally. I think based on my experience. That's all I can provide you with. Doesn't mean I don't know, just means my experience and own personal tests tell me what to think.

Clear coat is definItely NOT as hard as a nano coating. I think that is what is perhaps messing with you. Clear coat isn't hard at all. Liquid crystal and liquid ceramic very much are hard and a shit ton harder than clear coat!!

Fussy coat deffo isn't designed for your wheels. It wouldn't last long, but it would prove very quickly the cling effects it and any other sticky product has. I've never found a wax or sealant that isn't sticky and doesn't cause cling.

You're correct. A waxed/sealed car deffo cleans easier than a naked car. But a coated car deffo cleans easier than a waxed car. I do know because I have tried both and many types of both and there just is no comparison between the very best of waxes/sealants and even a mediocre coating. I don't need anything other than my vast experience with both on multiple cars with multiple paint types in multiple real word scenarios to confirm that for me. Unfortunately you don't have the same experience to draw on, but I still understand your desire for data and facts. Like I said, GTechniq for one are very good at publishing all of their data and science and you should find some good, non marketing information out there

Then you need to consider other more subjective things. My car stays cleaner, looks cleaner for longer and is cleaner after rain than when it is waxed. I'm not just telling myself this, I know it to be true. Coatings make your paint work slick without cling and help to reduce water marks from forming after rain. No wax or sealant I have ever used does that, in fact they can look worse after rain because of the cling.

These aren't just feelings. I have compared and contrasted with product against product for years.

I get accused of cleaning my car all the time at work when I haven't cleaned it for well over a week sometimes but people think it's just been washed. No cling.

There is nothing that a wax or sealant does better than a good coating... nothing. But they do do a good job at their price point and for ease of application.
Appreciate 1
Bobh5915.00

      10-14-2019, 03:24 PM   #32
Skyhigh
Major
Skyhigh's Avatar
375
Rep
1,118
Posts

Drives: BMW F36
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

You are correct that I have no personal experience with coatings but that did not just happen so. It is based on my observations of sufficient people around me with coatings.

Most of them neither have better hydrophobic effects, nor stay cleaner for longer. Scratch resistance is a myth in my opinion anyway, despite your belief. I often hear their frustration with water drops leaving permanent (mineral) imprint in the coating. Something I have never observed on wax.

The advantage of coatings to most is that it lasts longer and people "think" it protects better from the environment (which is most likely true in most, but not in all cases).

I do get your point however. If the best you ever got out of waxes was 1 month of durability, I can see why you are so impressed by coatings.
__________________
"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in cars and women."
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2019, 03:59 PM   #33
B1ue52
Private First Class
England
92
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: F32 420d M Sport
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: England

iTrader: (0)

When observing other people's experiences around you you need to know a few things to be able to be able to be objective:

1. Who applied it?
2. What was applied?
3. Single stage or two stage system?
4. What prep was done?
5. What is their aftercare routine?

That's not an exhaustive list either, but it would allow you to make a fair judgment. Without it, you simply can't.

The simple answer to all this is that if you want the very best protection for your car then that is PPF plus a two stage nano coating

If you can't/don't want to afford that then a two stage nano coating is your next best bet. Bearing in mind there are some poor products out there just like anything else and also some poor people applying poor products. (Dealers)

If you don't want that either then carry on waxing or sealing or both. Knock yourself out and use a glaze as well. I did for years until I found a better solution and now I'd never go back, but I'll always miss waxing my car
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2019, 01:41 AM   #34
frazervalley
Private First Class
Canada
71
Rep
112
Posts

Drives: 2015 328i xdrive
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: British Columbia

iTrader: (0)

Thank you gentlemen for an informative and spirited discussion regarding the protection of automotive paint. It was also very good to see the polite behaviour demonstrated by each of these gentlemen. Kudos to you both.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:02 AM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST