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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > N20, N26, B46, B48 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N26 Forged internals Engine build
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      11-24-2020, 10:14 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
If you want a semi budget "build," maxpeedingrods for the n20/n26 are 275 shipped on eBay or 300 directly from them for their Black Friday sale... .

Drop motor, disassemble, install rods with bearings, get everything balanced, put back together and reinstall motor. Should be good for at least 450whp. Of course supporting mods and upgrades fuel (pump + hpfp or CPI/port injection.)
sqwinny can you post the links for the rods. I'm going to buy another set
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      11-24-2020, 07:20 PM   #46
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ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/H-Beam-Conn...gAAOSwLXNbwERO

direct:

https://www.maxpeedingrods.com/produ...0-20t--n26b20-(us-only).html

Not trying to thread jack, but I literally have the same internals in hand too
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      11-24-2020, 10:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/H-Beam-Conn...gAAOSwLXNbwERO

direct:

https://www.maxpeedingrods.com/produ...0-20t--n26b20-(us-only).html

Not trying to thread jack, but I literally have the same internals in hand too
it's not thread jacking, congratulations !!!
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      11-24-2020, 10:27 PM   #48
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I think everyone should get these Rods right now, they cost less than charge pipes, or cold air intakes
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      11-24-2020, 10:49 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
They are parallel sleeves:
Thanks man!
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      11-24-2020, 10:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Kel918 View Post
Thanks for the advice !!, I'll get the block checked. Would I still need the cylinder support rings if I don't plan to go past 20 to 22 psi max. On the centrifugal supercharger It would be 15 psi max.
Generally speaking, having sleeves negates the need to have cylinder supports like closed deck modifications, unless you're prepping big power or track/rally use. Street car can get away without it.

This isn't a boost issue, and in all honesty stock block can withstand 30psi with its current design (no the rods can't) adding sleeves allows you to run closer to 40psi of boost and associated cylinder pressure.

Given the fact this motor is small displacement and only 4 cylinders to get a turbo to flow enough air to make 500-600 hp you'll be looking close to the 28psi range at 6000rpm anyways.
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      11-24-2020, 11:48 PM   #51
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Hey Navardi, I'm going to get the mambatek, I know in your build you said hat I could get like 380whp off of it right. Also can you put the link to your build so others can see it too
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      11-25-2020, 04:30 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel918 View Post
Hey Navardi, I'm going to get the mambatek, I know in your build you said hat I could get like 380whp off of it right. Also can you put the link to your build so others can see it too
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1566013

Yeah, you can, But all Stage 2 N20 Turbo's you won't see over 380-400HP (dyno dependent for reference Dynojet would see around 360-380whp on 93 and close to 400whp on E85). if you want more HP you need a big external turbo setup. The stock Turbine housings even if you fit a larger turbine wheel, reach a Max VE around 5700-6000 RPM and physically limit the flow of the engine to around 38-40lbs a min. So if you are planning on twin charging, you will be limited in airflow, not to mention a stage 2 N20 turbo can spool to 22psi by 2300rpm, and hold 25PSI all the way to 7K rpm. However doesn't show to flow any more air past 25-24psi.

So realistically twin Charging in your use case would only be beneficial if you had a big single scroll turbo on the motor and wanted to reduce turbo lag.
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      11-25-2020, 05:02 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navardi View Post
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1566013

Yeah, you can, But all Stage 2 N20 Turbo's you won't see over 380-400HP (dyno dependent for reference Dynojet would see around 360-380whp on 93 and close to 400whp on E85). if you want more HP you need a big external turbo setup. The stock Turbine housings even if you fit a larger turbine wheel, reach a Max VE around 5700-6000 RPM and physically limit the flow of the engine to around 38-40lbs a min. So if you are planning on twin charging, you will be limited in airflow, not to mention a stage 2 N20 turbo can spool to 22psi by 2300rpm, and hold 25PSI all the way to 7K rpm. However doesn't show to flow any more air past 25-24psi.

So realistically twin Charging in your use case would only be beneficial if you had a big single scroll turbo on the motor and wanted to reduce turbo lag.
I will also add, our MAF sensor can't read above 36-38lbs/min unless you rescale it (there is room todo so) During WOT the car uses MAP (Closed Loop mode) over MAF / Open Loop.
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      11-26-2020, 03:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by navardi View Post
I will also add, our MAF sensor can't read above 36-38lbs/min unless you rescale it (there is room todo so) During WOT the car uses MAP (Closed Loop mode) over MAF / Open Loop.
Thanks for the info. I've actually been running my car without the maf for 2 months. I plan on running the turbocharger and supercharger with their own air filters and then use a big intercooler with 2 inlets and 1 outlet. I just need the mambatek turbo for like around 350whp, and use the centrifugal supercharger for the other 350-400whp. I'm just working out the fuel system.
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      11-27-2020, 05:21 PM   #55
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What's your plan for fueling Kel918 ? Trying to decide what to do. My power goals are a little different than yours but its something that I've been pondering about lately. Perhaps you can chime in navardi too.

All I can think of is LPFP + HPFP (tune calibrated) should do the trick, unless CPI/port injection is still required even with the HPFP upgraded as well.
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      11-27-2020, 06:01 PM   #56
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block had to be notched right? willing to share machining/install costs?
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      11-28-2020, 12:28 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
What's your plan for fueling Kel918 ? Trying to decide what to do. My power goals are a little different than yours but its something that I've been pondering about lately. Perhaps you can chime in navardi too.

All I can think of is LPFP + HPFP (tune calibrated) should do the trick, unless CPI/port injection is still required even with the HPFP upgraded as well.
I think I'm going to go with the same fueling setup I have in my in my v8 4.5 infiniti g35. it's a twin fuel pump setup from the aps g35/350z twin turbo kit good for 1000whp. I want to use 1 pump to feed the original stock fuel line, use the 2nd pump to feed a custom intake manifold with 1 or 2 fuel rails to high pressure fuel regulator/s with a return line back to the fuel pump. If the intake manifold seems to be too much of a problem I'll just go with a port injection kit.
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      11-28-2020, 12:36 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by blumagic View Post
block had to be notched right? willing to share machining/install costs?
I don't think the block had to be notched with these rods. I think with the carillo rods they had to, I'll take more pictures of the block tomorrow. The cost for everything came out $1,712. That was just dropping of the block, pistons, rods and crank. This does include the melling liners, king bearings, installing liners, line hone, etc.. Also my crankshaft had to get worked on.

Last edited by Kel918; 11-28-2020 at 12:47 AM..
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      11-28-2020, 01:19 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blumagic View Post
block had to be notched right? willing to share machining/install costs?
For a full build it's going to be a lot more than you think initially. I'm basically buying everything new and replacing on the bottom end other than the oil pump pickup in the oil pan. My motor has ~126k on it going strong and I beat on it daily. I am assembling as much as I can by hand before transport, will pay someone to do the swap and transfer the rest of the accessories over as well. Things that are easy to access and swap over I'm leaving the same as I currently have no issues with anything (alternator/belts/starter) but everything that's against the firewall or requires dropping the block is getting changed. Most of this is getting bought and assembled in pieces. Will break in the forged bottom end on the stock turbo to ensure no issues before swapping to something else. Swapping to a larger turbo while the engine is in the car isn't too bad as you have lots of room to work with.

Currently acquired/ordered:
Rods 275 shipped
Pistons 700 shipped
Bare block upper and lower with oil squirters 300 local
Crank 400 shipped
New oem Hardware and gaskets 550 shipped
LPFP stage 2.5 (walbro 530) 500 shipped

Still have to buy/services to pay:
Jet wash block 275
Micro polish crank
Crankshaft bearings 200
Cylinder iron sleeves and/or css sleeves with supports and closing the deck 1275 + shipping to the shop. (Have to give John a call and see what this price all includes). Debating this or just balancing everything, sleeving, bone, notch cylinder wall, and machining locally 150 (typically it's around 20 +/- a cylinder)
Balance internals 200
Balance flywheel and clutch package 250
New water pump with hardware and gaskets kit 430 shipped
New updated timing chain kit 630 shipped
HPFP (spool performance) 1500 shipped

Up in the air turbo decision:
spa exhaust manifold
Used n20 turbo for core/exhaust manifold to modify and fit big turbo 350 shipped
n55 upgraded n55 turbo on n20 exhaust manifold or n55 turbo on modded n55 manifold drilled to fit n20 block
f30 n55 turbo inlet
Custom tune BM3 Cary Jordan/navardi/bm3 tuner 650 (approx current rate or so)

I have 6MT so add these to the list:
Luk dual mass flywheel 550 shipped
Stage 3 clutchmasters to hold 500 whp 800 shipped

Still have remove old engine, put in new one with forged bottom end and replaced parts which means add 130-160 an hour for labour costs. I can only assume it's 10+ hours to do all that. I don't even want to total this up. But when is all said and done, anything was changed and it's a "new car" engine and powertrain wise. This doesn't include port injection or touching the head other than gaskets, checking for damage, and cleaning it. Some of it might seem excessive, but I want to rev to 7500 redline (bm3 allows for 7200 with e30 OTS and I want to shift the powerband to a higher range to tune the the car similar to an evo/srt4 which reduces instant low end tq and shock to the transmission) and don't want to push more than 27-28 pounds on the turbo for its efficiency.

Last edited by sqwinny; 12-05-2020 at 06:44 PM..
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      11-29-2020, 03:56 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel918 View Post
Thanks for the info. I've actually been running my car without the maf for 2 months. I plan on running the turbocharger and supercharger with their own air filters and then use a big intercooler with 2 inlets and 1 outlet. I just need the mambatek turbo for like around 350whp, and use the centrifugal supercharger for the other 350-400whp. I'm just working out the fuel system.
I love the idea, the only issue I see here is that, even if the Supercharger is going to add the additional power in the top end, all of that exhaust gas has to then exit via the Turbo's turbine housing. Given the Extremely small A/R ratio of that housing, it will choke the whole motor even with a Super Charger installed. You would need to bypass the turbo in higher revs just to eliminate the exhaust housing and its super small volutes from choking overall engine VE and Airflow.

So if the turbo max's out at say 38lbs a min at 25PSI (which is around 60PSI of back pressure or greater on the Turbine Housing/Downpipe section of the exhaust. The Super Charger might add an additional say 10lbs/min of airflow, but given the Choke affect of the Turbine Housing the Turbo will then proceed to drop in efficiency thus lowering its airflow, negating any actual gain the super charger might add. Not to mention given the nature and size of the Turbine Housing A/R Max HP will always be around the 5700 - 6000 RPM range, wasting an extra 1200 RPM in the RPM cycle. Best Suggestion is maybe see if adding an external Gate into the Turbine housing before the manifold splits into the dual Volutes (for the twin scroll part of the housing) to help bleed off the additional airflow into the housing and help promote some VE and power in the top end.
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      11-29-2020, 04:00 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
What's your plan for fueling Kel918 ? Trying to decide what to do. My power goals are a little different than yours but its something that I've been pondering about lately. Perhaps you can chime in navardi too.

All I can think of is LPFP + HPFP (tune calibrated) should do the trick, unless CPI/port injection is still required even with the HPFP upgraded as well.
So, if you want to go LPFP & HPFP, CPI/PI is not required, the FX150 Spool HPFP should be plenty for 600 or abit more power. However At this stage no one has tested the max flow/HP the Spool HPFP will support on the N20, but I would like to think if the Stock HPFP caps out on 93 (98RON) around the 41-42 lbs/min mark (turbo airflow) then I would assume it would be safe to say the Spool would add another 300HP/WHP to play with. Obviously if you run Ethanol mixes then everything changes since the stock HPFP struggles to properly run E50 on a stock turbo that flows around the 29-32lbs a min mark (however most of the limitation of the stock HPFP occurs in the 3000 - 4500 Range as the cam shaft drive isn't rotating enough to get the HPFP to flow enough.
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      11-29-2020, 04:03 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Kel918 View Post
I don't think the block had to be notched with these rods. I think with the carillo rods they had to, I'll take more pictures of the block tomorrow. The cost for everything came out $1,712. That was just dropping of the block, pistons, rods and crank. This does include the melling liners, king bearings, installing liners, line hone, etc.. Also my crankshaft had to get worked on.
Double check that, because my mate just had his motor built with the MaxSpeeding Rods and his block had to be notched, from comparing my CP rods with his Max Speeding rods they seemed to be the same width.

If you rotate the block more than 270 degs and your block isn't notched properly you'll feel the rod hit the cylinder wall and prevent the crank from rotating further.

My mates video actually shows the notching in it, Pretty sure its this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMXetr9coGk
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      11-29-2020, 04:08 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
For a full build it's going to be a lot more than you think initially. I'm basically buying everything new and replacing on the bottom end other than the oil pump pickup in the oil pan. My motor has ~126k on it going strong and I beat on it daily. I am assembling as much as I can by hand before transport, will pay someone to do the swap and transfer the rest of the accessories over as well. Things that are easy to access and swap over I'm leaving the same as I currently have no issues with anything (alternator/belts/starter) but everything that's against the firewall or requires dropping the block is getting changed. Most of this is getting bought and assembled in pieces. Will break in the forged bottom end on the stock turbo to ensure no issues before swapping to something else. Swapping to a larger turbo while the engine is in the car isn't too bad as you have lots of room to work with.

Currently acquired/ordered:
Rods 275 shipped
Pistons 700 shipped
Bare block upper and lower with oil squirters 300 local
Crank 400 shipped
New oem Hardware and gaskets 550 shipped

Still have to buy/services to pay:
Jet wash block 275
Micro polish crank
Crankshaft bearings 200
Cylinder iron sleeves and/or css sleeves with supports and closing the deck 1275 + shipping to the shop. (Have to give John a call and see what this price all includes).

Debating this or just balancing everything, sleeving, bone, notch cylinder wall, and machining locally 150 (typically it's around 20 +/- a cylinder)
Balance internals 200
Balance flywheel and clutch package 250
New water pump with hardware and gaskets kit 430 shipped
New updated timing chain kit 630 shipped
LPFP stage 2.5 (walbro 530) 500 shipped
HPFP (spool performance) 1500 shipped

Up in the air turbo decision:
spa exhaust manifold
Used n20 turbo for core/exhaust manifold to modify and fit big turbo 350 shipped

Turbo (looking at srt4 neon turbos as they also use the TD04R and comparing compressor maps. Gt3076r looks great but have to figure out the external watergate setup which is a little tricky

Custom turbo inlet
Custom tune BM3 Cary Jordan/navardi/bm3 tuner 650 (approx current rate or so)

I have 6MT so add these to the list:
Luk dual mass flywheel 550 shipped
Stage 3 clutchmasters to hold 500 whp 800 shipped

Still have remove old engine, put in new one with forged bottom end and replaced parts which means add 130-160 an hour for labour costs. I can only assume it's 10+ hours to do all that. I don't even want to total this up. But when is all said and done, anything was changed and it's a "new car" engine and powertrain wise. This doesn't include port injection or touching the head other than gaskets, checking for damage, and cleaning it. Some of it might seem excessive, but I want to rev to 7500 redline (bm3 allows for 7200 with e30 OTS and I want to shift the powerband to a higher range to tune the the car similar to an evo/srt4 which reduces instant low end tq and shock to the transmission) and don't want to push more than 27-28 pounds on the turbo for its efficiency.
Quite the list, Looking forward to your progress. I might chime in, and say you're way better off to fit a N55 turbo (and conveniently someone on the forums just did this) N55 turbo (stock, Stage 1 and Stage 2) will get you into the 400 - 500 -550 WHP range on a N20, and bolt in fairly easily with some modifications, few ways you can go to get it mounted to the N20. In saying that any big turbo that offers internally WG will allow you to hook up the EWG solenoid, I know Internally WG have some airflow restrictions, but that isn't going to be a limiting factor on your build.

I have linked the Forum post for the N55 turbo on a N20, however 2 of my mates here in Aus are currently fitting a N55 Stock and N55 Stage 2 turbo to their Forged N20's they are looking to either weld the N55 Turbine Housing to the N20 Stock manifold or just cut Cylinders 1 and 6 from the N55 Turbo manifold/Housing and then redrill the Mounting stud holes. (The N55 shares the same Bore spacing, Exhaust port spacing, Intake Port spacing, Intake Port dimensions, and exhaust port dimensions as the N20 (plus alot more in common with it)). https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1778526


Regarding Rev Limit stock hardware generally sees issues around 7600 rpm. I don't see that an issue with forged rods and pistons. The max the ecu will let you run is 8000 rpm due to a physical coding limit. Most of our valve train is shared with the n55/S55 however the exhaust valve springs are from a N54. The main thing to take away here is the hydraulic lifters used are identical to the S55. If you want to confirm this real oem shows you what on the n20 is shared with the N55, S55 and N54. It also means we can look to these motors to use their upgraded valve train. This information is also mentioned in the n20,n55 and s55 technical documentation.

I am not sure however if you might run into valve float issues on the N20 earlier than you would see on the n55/s55 as cylinder pressures are higher since it has to cram high boost into 4 cylinders and not 6.

Which also means to get the turbo combination to flow plenty of air you need to look at a range of 26-30 psi if you chose to bolt a n55 turbo to the N20 just to match the airflow it puts out on a n55 at alot lower boost.

Unfortunately if you're too use either a stage 2 n20 or a turbo configuration based on a td04 format the exhaust housing effectively reduces the overall efficiency of boost and capable past 25-26psi. Which then reduces the maximum airflow those turbos usually make. In General terms, TD04 Based Turbos will struggle to pump out more than 36-41lbs a min of airflow in the high RPM range, and Due to the nature of the Small A/R ratios found in TD04 Based Turbos, overall VE is capped early on in the RPM band, and tends to be quite low due to the inefficiencies these turbos have on high RPM High HP setups.

I wouldn't be worried about running 30psi on a built motor.

Last edited by navardi; 11-29-2020 at 04:33 AM..
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      11-29-2020, 12:24 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navardi View Post
Quite the list, Looking forward to your progress. I might chime in, and say you're way better off to fit a N55 turbo (and conveniently someone on the forums just did this) N55 turbo (stock, Stage 1 and Stage 2) will get you into the 400 - 500 -550 WHP range on a N20, and bolt in fairly easily with some modifications, few ways you can go to get it mounted to the N20. In saying that any big turbo that offers internally WG will allow you to hook up the EWG solenoid, I know Internally WG have some airflow restrictions, but that isn't going to be a limiting factor on your build.
This is something I've been looking into honestly, part of it is plumbing, part of it is cost and integration with other parts seems almost a no brainer. I have been comparing the M2 N55 oem turbo for dimensions in comparison to the n20 as it uses the same diverter, and my theory is I'd be able to just mount and cut the turbo to intercooler pipe to accommodate it fitting onto the car. The issue I have is the powerband with an n55 turbo. it appears to stay the same as the n20 which is something I don't want when increasing boost. Have a ways to go, but I'm curious to see their dyno results and the powerband shift if any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navardi View Post
I have linked the Forum post for the N55 turbo on a N20, however 2 of my mates here in Aus are currently fitting a N55 Stock and N55 Stage 2 turbo to their Forged N20's they are looking to either weld the N55 Turbine Housing to the N20 Stock manifold or just cut Cylinders 1 and 6 from the N55 Turbo manifold/Housing and then redrill the Mounting stud holes. (The N55 shares the same Bore spacing, Exhaust port spacing, Intake Port spacing, Intake Port dimensions, and exhaust port dimensions as the N20 (plus alot more in common with it)). https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1778526
I saw this recently and it got me thinking. It's not an uncommon thing to do however I wanted to see how it held up/performed overall. Wasnt sure about the n55 manifold, but if that's the case its really good information. This helps greatly as it was something I wanted to ask, and someone has done it. In theory I could use a n55 downpipe and turbo to intercooler pipe with an upgraded oem n55 turbo and its all a bolt on affair within the chassis. of course little things might have to be changed/modified, but its simple in comparison to everything and one off parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by navardi View Post
Regarding Rev Limit stock hardware generally sees issues around 7600 rpm. I don't see that an issue with forged rods and pistons. The max the ecu will let you run is 8000 rpm due to a physical coding limit. Most of our valve train is shared with the n55/S55 however the exhaust valve springs are from a N54. The main thing to take away here is the hydraulic lifters used are identical to the S55. If you want to confirm this real oem shows you what on the n20 is shared with the N55, S55 and N54. It also means we can look to these motors to use their upgraded valve train. This information is also mentioned in the n20,n55 and s55 technical documentation.

I am not sure however if you might run into valve float issues on the N20 earlier than you would see on the n55/s55 as cylinder pressures are higher since it has to cram high boost into 4 cylinders and not 6.

Which also means to get the turbo combination to flow plenty of air you need to look at a range of 26-30 psi if you chose to bolt a n55 turbo to the N20 just to match the airflow it puts out on a n55 at alot lower boost.

Unfortunately if you're too use either a stage 2 n20 or a turbo configuration based on a td04 format the exhaust housing effectively reduces the overall efficiency of boost and capable past 25-26psi. Which then reduces the maximum airflow those turbos usually make. In General terms, TD04 Based Turbos will struggle to pump out more than 36-41lbs a min of airflow in the high RPM range, and Due to the nature of the Small A/R ratios found in TD04 Based Turbos, overall VE is capped early on in the RPM band, and tends to be quite low due to the inefficiencies these turbos have on high RPM High HP setups.

I wouldn't be worried about running 30psi on a built motor.
This is a lot of good info. Reving to the sky isn't the goal, however I want boost and power to be linear, similar to how the current small turbo is. I say rev to 7500 rpm, but realistically shift around 7000 or so, therefore, leaving a small window for overrev and matching turbos with flow rates to be easier. Current low end without boost is fine, but obviously move the peak powerband over with less of a peak and my thought process is driveablity, and shock on the drivetrain/engine overall.
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      11-29-2020, 06:34 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navardi View Post
Double check that, because my mate just had his motor built with the MaxSpeeding Rods and his block had to be notched, from comparing my CP rods with his Max Speeding rods they seemed to be the same width.

If you rotate the block more than 270 degs and your block isn't notched properly you'll feel the rod hit the cylinder wall and prevent the crank from rotating further.

My mates video actually shows the notching in it, Pretty sure its this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMXetr9coGk
I actually spun the whole assembly 2 times and it never stopped spinning also I don't see any notching on the block. I took pictures of the block
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      11-29-2020, 11:04 PM   #66
sqwinny
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Drives: 2013 6MT 328i M Sport
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Miami

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel918 View Post
I actually spun the whole assembly 2 times and it never stopped spinning also I don't see any notching on the block. I took pictures of the block
It would be at the bottom of the cylinders. you can see it here starting at 8:26 and he shows it more specifically at 10:00. Take a look and verify. I tried to mock it up and check if it was needed, but I don't have crank bearings (cause an additional gap between rod and crank) here yet and couldn't make a confirming necessity with these rods and pistons. I don't have the notches in my stock block like this at all near the oil squirters.

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