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      08-19-2019, 04:29 AM   #45
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I'm not saying anything I've written is correct, only a view point but if eugenics was a sound enough idea for someone such as Teddy Roosevelt, then absolutely.
But you think it's worthy of consideration. I can't tell if you are completely serious. For me, when intelligent, thoughtful people convince themselves that this sort of social engineering is OK, it makes me feel a bit hopeless. I'm part of a generation that could not understand how populations like Germany in the 30s could get behind lunatic nationalists. With Trump and Boris, I'm starting to understand. I read a quote somewhere recently that this is how democracy dies, not in a big meltdown, but bit by bit.

Sorry to the OP for wandering off topic, and I agree the usual tactics are not solving our social issues as a country. I just don't get how anyone can go from 'tough on crime' to sterilising the poor and really mean it.
Haha I'm not sure that I "really mean it", like I said, it seems like the only way to eradicate the problem.

It's only one of the many thoughts that run through my head when considering how to solve the problems that we face in a democratic society. I'm not a nutter, I promise!
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      08-19-2019, 07:57 AM   #46
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Preface - I've never worked in the police (or any emergency services), nor the prison service, nor social services and I'm not a judge. So, i may now eff all about this; purely a layman's view.

That said, apart from the loss of complete personal freedoms prison does seem to be a rather soft option these days, and too few people who are convicted of their crimes actually serve time.

I'd add a lot more hardship to the prison experience, tiering of prisoner treatment, as well as a lot more incentivisation and support for those that demonstrate that they want to change.

The 'starting experience' in prison would depend upon the crime. Low level convictions may result in more luxuries including socialising time, TV in room, greater visitation rights, etc. Murder, manslaughter, rape, child molestation, etc would all preclude those privileges from the start : solitary confinement, etc. Bad behaviour, assault on staff or damage to prison property would result in the loss of privileges for at least a minimum period of time, i.e. 12 months.

After a period of time, timescale to be dependent on the crime and the assessment of the prisoner's attitude and behaviour, the prisoner may be eligible for transfer to a learning and development secure facility which would be located on a completely different site to the main prison. This would provide access to learning materials, courses, advice/counselling, etc, in addition to TV in rooms (rather than cells), greater (screened) contact with the outside world. Prisoners would have to demonstrate appropriate attitude, commitment and progress in order to remain - miss the assessment criteria and they'd be moved back to the prison.

Final stage, in another secure facility, would include preparation for a return to life in the outside world : job advisors, access to modestly paid work, etc. Clear rules and consequences, i.e. a return to the learning and development centre, or to prison, if the rules are broken.

Segregating prisoners from those being rehabilitated would ensure that learning and rehab centres were seen as an earned privilege rather that a right, and that it could be easily lost. The journey would depend on the attitude and development of each prisoner and would hopefully be a key motivator. It also ensures that the learning/rehab centres don't get trashed in the event of a riot in the main prison. Anyone in the learning/rehab centre that abuses staff or wrecks equipment is moved back to prison and loses their right to future consideration for a minimum period, i.e. 12 months.

Maybe this already exists, but my understanding is that they may be all on single campus prison facilities. I wonder whether this actually generates a spirit of betterment, i.e. moving-on from those around you that are happy to sit back and slouch their way through their sentence.
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      08-19-2019, 11:08 AM   #47
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All 10 arrested remain in custody so clearly there's some evidence that one of them was the driver. Police are going to have a hard job proving which one though (or even who was in the car) but I can't see they'll get off for running over a policeman...at least they shouldn't.
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      08-19-2019, 12:47 PM   #48
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Preface - I've never worked in the police (or any emergency services), nor the prison service, nor social services and I'm not a judge. So, i may now eff all about this; purely a layman's view.

That said, apart from the loss of complete personal freedoms prison does seem to be a rather soft option these days, and too few people who are convicted of their crimes actually serve time.

I'd add a lot more hardship to the prison experience, tiering of prisoner treatment, as well as a lot more incentivisation and support for those that demonstrate that they want to change.

The 'starting experience' in prison would depend upon the crime. Low level convictions may result in more luxuries including socialising time, TV in room, greater visitation rights, etc. Murder, manslaughter, rape, child molestation, etc would all preclude those privileges from the start : solitary confinement, etc. Bad behaviour, assault on staff or damage to prison property would result in the loss of privileges for at least a minimum period of time, i.e. 12 months.

After a period of time, timescale to be dependent on the crime and the assessment of the prisoner's attitude and behaviour, the prisoner may be eligible for transfer to a learning and development secure facility which would be located on a completely different site to the main prison. This would provide access to learning materials, courses, advice/counselling, etc, in addition to TV in rooms (rather than cells), greater (screened) contact with the outside world. Prisoners would have to demonstrate appropriate attitude, commitment and progress in order to remain - miss the assessment criteria and they'd be moved back to the prison.

Final stage, in another secure facility, would include preparation for a return to life in the outside world : job advisors, access to modestly paid work, etc. Clear rules and consequences, i.e. a return to the learning and development centre, or to prison, if the rules are broken.

Segregating prisoners from those being rehabilitated would ensure that learning and rehab centres were seen as an earned privilege rather that a right, and that it could be easily lost. The journey would depend on the attitude and development of each prisoner and would hopefully be a key motivator. It also ensures that the learning/rehab centres don't get trashed in the event of a riot in the main prison. Anyone in the learning/rehab centre that abuses staff or wrecks equipment is moved back to prison and loses their right to future consideration for a minimum period, i.e. 12 months.

Maybe this already exists, but my understanding is that they may be all on single campus prison facilities. I wonder whether this actually generates a spirit of betterment, i.e. moving-on from those around you that are happy to sit back and slouch their way through their sentence.
100% agree with what you're suggesting there Watsey. I've always said to my Mrs that the UK should have some of the cleanest streets in Europe if we'd just get prisoners and those on community service out there picking it up but.......... oh wait, that would demean them and be against their human rights, oh and then there's the health and safety implications, what if poor Dwain from Doncaster cut his finger on a piece of glass, he'd then sue the prison authority and the taxpayer could pick up the bill. Until we get acceptance that those in prison forfeit certain rights and privileges, nothing is going to change unfortunately but I really wish we could go hard line and start getting serious on crime and those who commit it.
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      08-19-2019, 02:28 PM   #49
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-49402226

1 charged with murder
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      08-19-2019, 02:32 PM   #50
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All we can hope for now is a full on life sentence and lengthy sentencing for the others involved, no matter what their role on the night.
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      08-19-2019, 02:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
Preface - I've never worked in the police (or any emergency services), nor the prison service, nor social services and I'm not a judge. So, i may now eff all about this; purely a layman's view.

That said, apart from the loss of complete personal freedoms prison does seem to be a rather soft option these days, and too few people who are convicted of their crimes actually serve time.

I'd add a lot more hardship to the prison experience, tiering of prisoner treatment, as well as a lot more incentivisation and support for those that demonstrate that they want to change.

The 'starting experience' in prison would depend upon the crime. Low level convictions may result in more luxuries including socialising time, TV in room, greater visitation rights, etc. Murder, manslaughter, rape, child molestation, etc would all preclude those privileges from the start : solitary confinement, etc. Bad behaviour, assault on staff or damage to prison property would result in the loss of privileges for at least a minimum period of time, i.e. 12 months.

After a period of time, timescale to be dependent on the crime and the assessment of the prisoner's attitude and behaviour, the prisoner may be eligible for transfer to a learning and development secure facility which would be located on a completely different site to the main prison. This would provide access to learning materials, courses, advice/counselling, etc, in addition to TV in rooms (rather than cells), greater (screened) contact with the outside world. Prisoners would have to demonstrate appropriate attitude, commitment and progress in order to remain - miss the assessment criteria and they'd be moved back to the prison.

Final stage, in another secure facility, would include preparation for a return to life in the outside world : job advisors, access to modestly paid work, etc. Clear rules and consequences, i.e. a return to the learning and development centre, or to prison, if the rules are broken.

Segregating prisoners from those being rehabilitated would ensure that learning and rehab centres were seen as an earned privilege rather that a right, and that it could be easily lost. The journey would depend on the attitude and development of each prisoner and would hopefully be a key motivator. It also ensures that the learning/rehab centres don't get trashed in the event of a riot in the main prison. Anyone in the learning/rehab centre that abuses staff or wrecks equipment is moved back to prison and loses their right to future consideration for a minimum period, i.e. 12 months.

Maybe this already exists, but my understanding is that they may be all on single campus prison facilities. I wonder whether this actually generates a spirit of betterment, i.e. moving-on from those around you that are happy to sit back and slouch their way through their sentence.
100% agree with what you're suggesting there Watsey. I've always said to my Mrs that the UK should have some of the cleanest streets in Europe if we'd just get prisoners and those on community service out there picking it up but.......... oh wait, that would demean them and be against their human rights, oh and then there's the health and safety implications, what if poor Dwain from Doncaster cut his finger on a piece of glass, he'd then sue the prison authority and the taxpayer could pick up the bill. Until we get acceptance that those in prison forfeit certain rights and privileges, nothing is going to change unfortunately but I really wish we could go hard line and start getting serious on crime and those who commit it.
We also need to build more prisons in this country. I think there is unwritten rule to be over lenient of those deserving of custodial sentences due to there not being enough prisons.

I would also recruit many ex serviceman to run the prisons and build staff quarter's on site. There would be the added bonus this would help some ex serviceman coming out of the army who perhaps need a stable job and accommodation. Also they could apply the discipline needed.
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      08-19-2019, 02:41 PM   #52
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All we can hope for now is a full on life sentence and lengthy sentencing for the others involved, no matter what their role on the night.
Need a jury to find him guilty before we can start thinking about sentencing.
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      08-19-2019, 04:44 PM   #53
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Need a jury to find him guilty before we can start thinking about sentencing.
Yep i would hope that if found guilty the Judge will pass a full life Tariff. The legislation is there for murder of a Police or Prison Officer. Assurances were also give way back when hanging was abolished. Unfortunately it is not always given. Such as Harry Roberts who i worked with and is now walking the streets, pretty close to both of us as it happens...he told me some years back that when the Police caught him in Epping forest ( if memory serves?) he got the sh~t kicked out of him in the back of the Land rover.....different times.
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      08-19-2019, 04:50 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
Preface - I've never worked in the police (or any emergency services), nor the prison service, nor social services and I'm not a judge. So, i may now eff all about this; purely a layman's view.

That said, apart from the loss of complete personal freedoms prison does seem to be a rather soft option these days, and too few people who are convicted of their crimes actually serve time.

I'd add a lot more hardship to the prison experience, tiering of prisoner treatment, as well as a lot more incentivisation and support for those that demonstrate that they want to change.

The 'starting experience' in prison would depend upon the crime. Low level convictions may result in more luxuries including socialising time, TV in room, greater visitation rights, etc. Murder, manslaughter, rape, child molestation, etc would all preclude those privileges from the start : solitary confinement, etc. Bad behaviour, assault on staff or damage to prison property would result in the loss of privileges for at least a minimum period of time, i.e. 12 months.

After a period of time, timescale to be dependent on the crime and the assessment of the prisoner's attitude and behaviour, the prisoner may be eligible for transfer to a learning and development secure facility which would be located on a completely different site to the main prison. This would provide access to learning materials, courses, advice/counselling, etc, in addition to TV in rooms (rather than cells), greater (screened) contact with the outside world. Prisoners would have to demonstrate appropriate attitude, commitment and progress in order to remain - miss the assessment criteria and they'd be moved back to the prison.

Final stage, in another secure facility, would include preparation for a return to life in the outside world : job advisors, access to modestly paid work, etc. Clear rules and consequences, i.e. a return to the learning and development centre, or to prison, if the rules are broken.

Segregating prisoners from those being rehabilitated would ensure that learning and rehab centres were seen as an earned privilege rather that a right, and that it could be easily lost. The journey would depend on the attitude and development of each prisoner and would hopefully be a key motivator. It also ensures that the learning/rehab centres don't get trashed in the event of a riot in the main prison. Anyone in the learning/rehab centre that abuses staff or wrecks equipment is moved back to prison and loses their right to future consideration for a minimum period, i.e. 12 months.

Maybe this already exists, but my understanding is that they may be all on single campus prison facilities. I wonder whether this actually generates a spirit of betterment, i.e. moving-on from those around you that are happy to sit back and slouch their way through their sentence.


Your final stage bit pretty much exists in the form of Cat D open prison were they are sent on day release to work with curfews etc and are reintegrated.
Alot of your other ideas with incentives have recently been tried... again with every one being cut back "Standard" privileges and to get "Enhanced" you had to be working, good behaviour, no adjudications and "going above and beyond" the last bit was controversial and resulted in Prison Governors inventing lots of new ways they could keep it /get it. Net result no change
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      08-21-2019, 05:15 PM   #55
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I’ve been on scene guard for the last few days at one of the scenes in relation to this and the generosity of the public has been outstanding.

I just wanted to share this tweet that my colleague posted. Please feel free to share or whatever people do with tweets and if you are feeling generous please donate at the just giving page for Andrew.

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...0190821_114260

https://twitter.com/basingstokecops/...423217152?s=21
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      08-22-2019, 09:15 AM   #56
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I've been on scene guard for the last few days at one of the scenes in relation to this and the generosity of the public has been outstanding.

I just wanted to share this tweet that my colleague posted. Please feel free to share or whatever people do with tweets and if you are feeling generous please donate at the just giving page for Andrew.

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfund...0190821_114260

https://twitter.com/basingstokecops/...423217152?s=21
Cambs Police have been regularly posting pictures of all the cards and letters they have received. People have been baking cakes and taking them to police stations, leaving flowers, someone even planted two rose bushes outside one of their stations.

Sometimes dealing with the people we deal with, where even our 'victims' hate us, we can forget that the vast majority of the public are still decent and support us in what we do.

I'll never forget one day doing a road closure for a fatal RTC, a family brought me out a full Sunday roast including apple crumble and custard for pudding! And last Christmas I had to sit with a stolen car whilst we awaited recovery for it. In a small cul-de-sac of about 15 houses, 11 of them brought us cups of tea, mince pies, chocolates.
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      08-23-2019, 12:21 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by TouringPleb View Post
Cambs Police have been regularly posting pictures of all the cards and letters they have received. People have been baking cakes and taking them to police stations, leaving flowers, someone even planted two rose bushes outside on of their stations.

Sometimes dealing with the people we deal with, where even our 'victims' hate us, we can forget that the vast majority of the public are still decent and support us in what we do.

I'll never forget one day doing a road closure for a fatal RTC, a family brought me out a full Sunday roast including apple crumble and custard for pudding! And last Christmas I to sit with a stolen car whilst we awaited recovery for it. In a small cul-de-sac of about 15 houses, 11 of them brought us cups of tea, mince pies, chocolates.
It really does restore your faith in humanity..
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      07-24-2020, 08:07 AM   #58
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Sadly not convicted of murder...hopefully the higher end of the tariff on Manslaughter.
The Young Offenders institutes are pretty broken these days.
Unfortunately I have a feeling Prison won't do much for these 3 other than be inconvenience.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53526636

Last edited by mikeoz; 07-24-2020 at 12:44 PM..
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      07-24-2020, 12:51 PM   #59
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Sadly not convicted of murder...hopefully the higher end of the tariff on Manslaughter.
The Young Offenders institutes are pretty broken these days.
Unfortunately I have a feeling Prison won't do much for these 3 other than be inconvenience.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53526636
Have you seen the footage of them laughing during the case? Beyond redemption I would say.
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      07-24-2020, 01:09 PM   #60
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Have you seen the footage of them laughing during the case? Beyond redemption I would say.
Agree they don't care mate probably proud in there sick world.
It's been publicly reported that they were trying to nobble the jury, in fact 1 Juror was dismissed having been spotted by a Prison Officer mouthing "Bye Boys" or words to that effect when they were being led away during the trial...
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      07-24-2020, 02:44 PM   #61
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Have you seen the footage of them laughing during the case? Beyond redemption I would say.
Agree they don't care mate probably proud in there sick world.
It's been publicly reported that they were trying to nobble the jury, in fact 1 Juror was dismissed having been spotted by a Prison Officer mouthing "Bye Boys" or words to that effect when they were being led away during the trial...
Just wonder how much the jury felt the impact of special protection - after the trial they'd still be worried no doubt.


By all accounts they were aware he was been dragged and skinned alive by his screams. So how it's not murder I don't know!!

They may laugh during trial as most of these sick scum do but let's hope when that slammer shuts they won't. Still hoping they get 20 min. Will see fingers crossed
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      07-25-2020, 06:29 AM   #62
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Sadly not convicted of murder...hopefully the higher end of the tariff on Manslaughter.
The Young Offenders institutes are pretty broken these days.
Unfortunately I have a feeling Prison won't do much for these 3 other than be inconvenience.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53526636
Have you seen the footage of them laughing during the case? Beyond redemption I would say.
From what I've read about them, I really don't think they have understood the gravity of it all.

According to the press (and I don't believe all they report) two of the 3 can't read and write at all and one can barely manage his name. They've probably got the mental age of 12, 13 year olds where it's all fun and games to them and nothing is serious.

I genuinely believe a lot of Travellers don't understand the concept of right and wrong. They believe if you want something you take it. If the person it belongs to objects, you use force. I've seen it on the sites where boys of 9-10 might want a bike a 7-8: year old is riding around on. If the younger kid doesn't hand it over, the old one will punch him until he does. And then that translates into later life where a punch becomes a knife, a gun, extreme violence. It's a culture which violence and strength is respected above all else. A man who can fight will be respected more than a man who can fix or create things. Where me and you might get up and go to work in the police, an office, wherever, they get up and will drive around looking for things to steal.

I always knew it would be difficult to get a murder conviction but let's hope they get the maximum term for man slaughter. I fear that as one admitted it before trial, he may get a shorter sentence to reflect this.

It must have been devastating for the family, friends and colleagues to hear the offenders families celebrating the verdicts.
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      07-25-2020, 08:40 AM   #63
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From what I've read about them, I really don't think they have understood the gravity of it all.

According to the press (and I don't believe all they report) two of the 3 can't read and write at all and one can barely manage his name. They've probably got the mental age of 12, 13 year olds where it's all fun and games to them and nothing is serious.

I genuinely believe a lot of Travellers don't understand the concept of right and wrong. They believe if you want something you take it. If the person it belongs to objects, you use force. I've seen it on the sites where boys of 9-10 might want a bike a 7-8: year old is riding around on. If the younger kid doesn't hand it over, the old one will punch him until he does. And then that translates into later life where a punch becomes a knife, a gun, extreme violence. It's a culture which violence and strength is respected above all else. A man who can fight will be respected more than a man who can fix or create things. Where me and you might get up and go to work in the police, an office, wherever, they get up and will drive around looking for things to steal.

I always knew it would be difficult to get a murder conviction but let's hope they get the maximum term for man slaughter. I fear that as one admitted it before trial, he may get a shorter sentence to reflect this.

It must have been devastating for the family, friends and colleagues to hear the offenders families celebrating the verdicts.
Pretty much agree with this.

The guys I have worked with inside have had a low educational level due to not really going to school much. Never came across 1 that's not good with their fists either. I have personally had good working relations with ones I have had inside. They are always bang at it and you can't trust them of course.

Again I think you are right the Judge will take in to account there young age and reports on low intellect etc and whatever sob story about their childhood etc...hopefully the Judge will not be to swayed and they get some decent Bird to do.
Police Fed summed it up today...slap in the face for Justice.
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      07-26-2020, 03:19 PM   #64
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Pretty much agree with this.

The guys I have worked with inside have had a low educational level due to not really going to school much. Never came across 1 that's not good with their fists either. I have personally had good working relations with ones I have had inside. They are always bang at it and you can't trust them of course.

Again I think you are right the Judge will take in to account there young age and reports on low intellect etc and whatever sob story about their childhood etc...hopefully the Judge will not be to swayed and they get some decent Bird to do.
Police Fed summed it up today...slap in the face for Justice.
If there is one piece of law I agree with out here it's the Felony Murder statute. Theft over a certain value is a felony here, as is fleeing the police in a reckless manner. If somebody dies while you or your co-conspirators are committing a felony, it is a murder charge. No ifs or buts.

As the perps in the link were minors the state would not be able to apply the death penalty or life without parole, but you could guarantee 35-40 years in one of Nevada's fun camps. "Fun" is when the screws take two prisoners of different factions out of their cells handcuffed and lets them duke it out with feet and heads. When it gets out of control the guards appear to be within their rights to shoot one and kill him. I can link you that story if you really want. Did I mention our prison system has some issues?

As for the adults involved, they would be looking at life without parole for a cop death.

Last edited by agentorange; 07-26-2020 at 06:30 PM..
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      07-27-2020, 04:51 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agentorange View Post
If there is one piece of law I agree with out here it's the Felony Murder statute. Theft over a certain value is a felony here, as is fleeing the police in a reckless manner. If somebody dies while you or your co-conspirators are committing a felony, it is a murder charge. No ifs or buts.

As the perps in the link were minors the state would not be able to apply the death penalty or life without parole, but you could guarantee 35-40 years in one of Nevada's fun camps. "Fun" is when the screws take two prisoners of different factions out of their cells handcuffed and lets them duke it out with feet and heads. When it gets out of control the guards appear to be within their rights to shoot one and kill him. I can link you that story if you really want. Did I mention our prison system has some issues?

As for the adults involved, they would be looking at life without parole for a cop death.
Yeah our system is some what evolved from that..

You can make Prison a place people don't want to be without doing daft things like that. Just remove some of the nice extras we seem to give people..
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      07-31-2020, 07:55 AM   #66
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16 years.... I presume and trust that's not 8 on release? But full on 16?
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