[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by dwalls90

That is pretty crazy.

Also funny the F32 is .1 seconds faster than the F30.

I've never cared too much for 0-60mph times because I do very little stop light to stop light races nor would I want to subject the car to the launches necessary to obtain those times. Acceleration from a roll matters more because that's more applicable to everyday driving.

Now 0-60mph are indicative of forward traction. Yes, given the same tires, AWD will have a noticeable edge in forward traction from a stop over RWD. AWD increases the probability of forward traction.

[WilliCO]

Disclaimer: my last BMW was a RWD E60. I ran snow tires on it in the winters here, never got stuck, and it felt very stable in my parking lot snow doughnut tests. So, empirically I see the value.

But...

I notice that any time a choice is available that lessens damage potential to cars, at least some of the insurance companies offer discounts to policyholders who make that choice. Alarms and defensive driving courses come to mind.

I can't think of any insurance company offering a discount to people who use snow tires. This to me suggests that although the academic benefits are undeniable, the statistical impact of snows on financial loss, at a macro level, is not significant enough to matter.

Then again the same insurance companies won't charge you extra is you run your bald ten year-old Eagle VR50s in the winter either. So maybe they just decided not to take on the variables.

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by stormlv

You can go for the Alpina option - it doesn't seem that much more expensive for what it is...

RWD, LSD and a bit more power from the N57...

I wish. The D3 alphina has had excellent reviews in the UK. Even put forward as alternative to the M3, and on the autocar fleet achieved an 41+ mpg average.

I'm afraid the massive discount on the 335d meant I could afford it, but alas not the D3

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by WillInDenver

Disclaimer: my last BMW was a RWD E60. I ran snow tires on it in the winters here, never got stuck, and it felt very stable in my parking lot snow doughnut tests. So, empirically I see the value.

But...

I notice that any time a choice is available that lessens damage potential to cars, at least some of the insurance companies offer discounts to policyholders who make that choice. Alarms and defensive driving courses come to mind.

I can't think of any insurance company offering a discount to people who use snow tires. This to me suggests that although the academic benefits are undeniable, the statistical impact of snows on financial loss, at a macro level, is not significant enough to matter.

Then again the same insurance companies won't charge you extra is you run your bald ten year-old Eagle VR50s in the winter either. So maybe they just decided not to take on the variables.

Our Insurance company offers a 10% discount if you run winter tires.

[WilliCO]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Our Insurance company offers a 10% discount if you run winter tires.

Ah! Interesting - who is it?

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Our Insurance company offers a 10% discount if you run winter tires.

Do I smell hops and barley?

[CHCCubs]

Originally Posted by WillInDenver

Ah! Interesting - who is it?

Several different insurance companies in Ontario offer varying levels of policy discounts if you use winter tires. Just one example below:

http://www.thepersonal.com/p-on/en/i...ter-tires.aspx

[RJH]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

Yes here we go again, if you look up my comment, I did mention that he need to equip his car with winter tires, something you conveniently ignored. I've had rear drive bimmers and XDrive bimmers. Both being equipped with winter tires, there is no question XDrive is superior to rear drive in winter conditions. OP leaves in Canada, meaning snow six months a year. If you talk about which car is more FUN, drifting etc, ok you maybe right but for a 22year old driving in Canada, I strongly recommend XDrive no question.

6 months of snow - where the heck do you live, the Yukon? I count less then 6 days when the roads had more than a dusting of snow and none that were unsafe to drive any car. X-Drive was a big mistake and it's not like there is even enough horsepower to need the extra dry road traction of AWD
At 22 I was in grad school and all I could afford was a old Ford pickup with bald tires, so with all the nanny device that even the most modest of cars provides; I don't see any concern about the car not being capable or safe.
Chicken Little would be proud of you Ali...but you shouldn't assume that age has a 1-1 correlation with driving skill. There are a lot of new-to-Canada drivers that are in there 30, 40s ++ but with little driving experience and even less on snow covered roads.

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Our Insurance company offers a 10% discount if you run winter tires.

I wish they did that in the UK.... It may stop this ..

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by RJH

6 months of snow - where the heck do you live, the Yukon? I count less then 6 days when the roads had more than a dusting of snow and none that were unsafe to drive any car. X-Drive was a big mistake and it's not like there is even enough horsepower to need the extra dry road traction of AWD
At 22 I was in grad school and all I could afford was a old Ford pickup with bald tires, so with all the nanny device that even the most modest of cars provides; I don't see any concern about the car not being capable or safe.
Chicken Little would be proud of you Ali...but you shouldn't assume that age has a 1-1 correlation with driving skill. There are a lot of new-to-Canada drivers that are in there 30, 40s ++ but with little driving experience and even less on snow covered roads.

I live in Owen sound the snowbelt country and six months of snow is not an exaggeration if you've ever travelled the Georgian bay shores. As for age, my son is 20 and I've seen how reckless he can be especially eith a couple of friends on board. All I'm saying is better be safe than sorry. No Xdrive or any other gizmo is a substitute for safe driving but comparing rear wheel drive car to All wheel drive and saying there is no difference is utter nonsense. Tell that to the BMW engineers who designed Xdrive or watch a couple videos on the difference.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by RJH

I count less then 6 days when the roads had more than a dusting of snow and none that were unsafe to drive any car.

Oh really?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102325520
http://www.wcvb.com/news/multicar-pi...ltham/31285076
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/25...st-11-injured/
http://www.necn.com/news/new-england...287337161.html
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/tra...s/201501070185
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...215-story.html
http://www.wunderground.com/news/win...ultima-impacts

And those are only the larger pileups.

[RJH]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I live in Owen sound the snowbelt country and six months of snow is not an exaggeration if you've ever travelled the Georgian bay shores. As for age, my son is 20 and I've seen how reckless he can be especially eith a couple of friends on board. All I'm saying is better be safe than sorry. No Xdrive or any other gizmo is a substitute for safe driving but comparing rear wheel drive car to All wheel drive and saying there is no difference is utter nonsense. Tell that to the BMW engineers who designed Xdrive or watch a couple videos on the difference.

If it makes you feel safer, or you're not skilled at driving in slippery conditions, or you live in an extreme weather location with infrequently plowed roads... and you're ok with compromising your driving experience, than by all means get AWD and every other nanny device available. But base you decision on real not imaginary needs and value-propositions. (and if you're really off the beaten track, why aren't you driving a Jeep? A BWM of any configuration can't plow through a foot of snow !)

On the other hand, my position is that not only do automakers grossly exaggerate the need for AWD, AND it's benefit ...there are many others, as well as myself, that believe they encourage a false sense of security (exponentially so if we are talking SUVs) leading to greater risk taking - among 20 years olds and 50 year olds alike.

And for those multi-car collision video's, I am confident that AWD would have been little to no help. You may have been able to go or stop incrementally better than a FWD/RWD cars, but it does nothing for 18 wheeler that plows into you.
I have family and friends who are police officers and work in some of the snowiest regions across Canada and US, but except for a few Chevy Tahoos, they all drive RWD cars; and safely drive over 100,000K per year.

BTW Ali, I travel your area frequently to go skiing, and yes it get's its fair share of lake-effect snow for 2-3 months, but we usually take the wife's VW station wagon because my stupid car doesn't have fold-down seats or a rear seat/trunk pass-through (surprise find!). My wife, who's smart enough to admit her relative lack of skill in extreme weather let's me drive (though the roads are so well maintained it's really a moot point)

The bottom-line, is that my 328 is a nice safe car, but so is an Accord or a ton of other family sedans, and that once my lease is up; my next car will be a true sports sedan with RWD and manual, maybe an 335, M3 or M5, but it will not be boring and I will not drink the purple Kool-Aid that AWD is a must have.

[rolltidef32]

RJH, that was some passion!

I just fear that RWD could become the next manual transmission. What I mean is the attack on manuals to non-existence.

Most of the electric and hybrid electrics now have some form of AWD.

RWD feels like you're being pushed around a curve; great sensation. On a track RWD allows for more controlled chaos. My wife's X3 just feels mushy. Great for an SUV, as I feel that sporty Trucks are an oxymoron since they sit so high.

However, in a car that's closer to the road, I want RWD. Screw the weather. If I were north, it would be winter rubber, since no season tires can't ever be any good. If I just had to go with AWD, it would be an Audi, or Subaru.

[timmahh]

*le sigh. I don't mind having xDrive. I saw my now current car at the dealership while I was setting up the lease for my bf, and I thought dammit.. I want a new car now, and this one was perfect: sport package, 6MT, and xDrive for the hell of it. I really don't care about having it since I live in SoCal, but now that I have it, it's kind of nice. It's definitely more grippy than my E90 was [in the sense that I can push corners harder], but after a few months I miss the sport setup in my E90 in terms of suspension, which I know is a different topic, but unfortunately they go hand in hand with BMW.

[tjlees]

If you want the handling on an xdrive, put on AC schnitzer springs - even with adaptive they lower the car by 20-25mm (an inch) and stop the car rolling. It doesn't cost much and doesn't invalidate the warranty.

IMHO if you are after track like handling, RWD would always be my choice. AWD is mainly point and squirt (as it can be with an open diff design and EBC). AWD taught me some bad driving habits (throw the car into the corner, mash throttle and aim at apex - job done!)

[karupspc]

Living in Wisconsin for many years now, going with xDrive was definitely the correct decision. The elevation here while nothing like Colorado there are hills where I live having xDrive with all-season tires have yet to slip or any problems with traction and drive with confidence.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Ali Shiralian

I live in Owen sound the snowbelt country and six months of snow is not an exaggeration if you've ever travelled the Georgian bay shores. As for age, my son is 20 and I've seen how reckless he can be especially eith a couple of friends on board. All I'm saying is better be safe than sorry. No Xdrive or any other gizmo is a substitute for safe driving but comparing rear wheel drive car to All wheel drive and saying there is no difference is utter nonsense. Tell that to the BMW engineers who designed Xdrive or watch a couple videos on the difference.

Like you said, xDrive or not, it's not going to substitute for good judgement. With that said, why not go for something that is more affordable to repair/replace when he does wreck? Ie. Subaru.

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Oh really?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102325520
http://www.wcvb.com/news/multicar-pi...ltham/31285076
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/25...st-11-injured/
http://www.necn.com/news/new-england...287337161.html
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/tra...s/201501070185
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...215-story.html
http://www.wunderground.com/news/win...ultima-impacts

And those are only the larger pileups.

AWD and RWD wouldn't have made a difference in these situations. I'm going to venture to guess we're dealing with limited visibility and insufficient stopping distance.

This post below pretty sums up a lot of good points in response to the above posts:

Originally Posted by RJH

If it makes you feel safer, or you're not skilled at driving in slippery conditions, or you live in an extreme weather location with infrequently plowed roads... and you're ok with compromising your driving experience, than by all means get AWD and every other nanny device available. But base you decision on real not imaginary needs and value-propositions. (and if you're really off the beaten track, why aren't you driving a Jeep? A BWM of any configuration can't plow through a foot of snow !)

On the other hand, my position is that not only do automakers grossly exaggerate the need for AWD, AND it's benefit ...there are many others, as well as myself, that believe they encourage a false sense of security (exponentially so if we are talking SUVs) leading to greater risk taking - among 20 years olds and 50 year olds alike.

And for those multi-car collision video's, I am confident that AWD would have been little to no help. You may have been able to go or stop incrementally better than a FWD/RWD cars, but it does nothing for 18 wheeler that plows into you.
I have family and friends who are police officers and work in some of the snowiest regions across Canada and US, but except for a few Chevy Tahoos, they all drive RWD cars; and safely drive over 100,000K per year.

BTW Ali, I travel your area frequently to go skiing, and yes it get's its fair share of lake-effect snow for 2-3 months, but we usually take the wife's VW station wagon because my stupid car doesn't have fold-down seats or a rear seat/trunk pass-through (surprise find!). My wife, who's smart enough to admit her relative lack of skill in extreme weather let's me drive (though the roads are so well maintained it's really a moot point)

The bottom-line, is that my 328 is a nice safe car, but so is an Accord or a ton of other family sedans, and that once my lease is up; my next car will be a true sports sedan with RWD and manual, maybe an 335, M3 or M5, but it will not be boring and I will not drink the purple Kool-Aid that AWD is a must have.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

RJH, that was some passion!

I just fear that RWD could become the next manual transmission. What I mean is the attack on manuals to non-existence.

Most of the electric and hybrid electrics now have some form of AWD.

RWD feels like you're being pushed around a curve; great sensation. On a track RWD allows for more controlled chaos. My wife's X3 just feels mushy. Great for an SUV, as I feel that sporty Trucks are an oxymoron since they sit so high.

However, in a car that's closer to the road, I want RWD. Screw the weather. If I were north, it would be winter rubber, since no season tires can't ever be any good. If I just had to go with AWD, it would be an Audi, or Subaru.

This. The Audi S4 with the optional rear diff is does not have a performance compromised AWD system like the 335i xDrive. If I needed AWD, I would skip the xDrive and just go to the Audi S4.

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

This. The Audi S4 with the optional rear diff is does not have a performance compromised AWD system like the 335i xDrive. If I needed AWD, I would skip the xDrive and just go to the Audi S4.

The diff option on the Audi is nice for sure. However, I would rather do a 328 xDrive over an A4 IMO.

I'm grappling with the same decision. I've been driving an SUV and a fun car for years and now I'm ready to consolidate. I live about an hour north of Philly so I deal with the snow. Strongly considering an xDrive 435i, but I'm not sure if AWD is necessary.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Like you said, xDrive or not, it's not going to substitute for good judgement. With that said, why not go for something that is more affordable to repair/replace when he does wreck? Ie. Subaru.



AWD and RWD wouldn't have made a difference in these situations. I'm going to venture to guess we're dealing with limited visibility and insufficient stopping distance.

This post below pretty sums up a lot of good points in response to the above posts:

Yes definitly Subaru is a better vehicle for winter driving that's why we have one in our driveway. OP looks like he's looking at a bimmer tough. If he is then I'd still suggest XDrive modle of whatever line he's getting with proper winter tires. It's moot point to even compare the effectiveness of AWD vs rear wheel drive. There is a reason most bimmers in dealer lots in Canada are Xdrive models boys and girls.

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by WWM3

The diff option on the Audi is nice for sure. However, I would rather do a 328 xDrive over an A4 IMO.

I'm grappling with the same decision. I've been driving an SUV and a fun car for years and now I'm ready to consolidate. I live about an hour north of Philly so I deal with the snow. Strongly considering an xDrive 435i, but I'm not sure if AWD is necessary.

Unless you have proper winter tires, don't matter what you get, awd or rear wheel. Having said that, I'd go with XDrive vs RWD if both equipped with winter tires. Sure there is compromise with performance in XDrive, but how many times you want to track your car?

[Ali Shiralian]

Originally Posted by karupspc

Living in Wisconsin for many years now, going with xDrive was definitely the correct decision. The elevation here while nothing like Colorado there are hills where I live having xDrive with all-season tires have yet to slip or any problems with traction and drive with confidence.

+1