[Strudle]

And this is the scariest argument many AWD owners make, scary since we all share the same roads.

If you live in that 5% area of US (and Canada) you're referring too you need winter tires, FWD/AWD or RWD. Province of Quebec in fact made them mandatory few years ago.

This is a circular argument with no clear objective, but still I have to point out I've lived in the Northeast my whole life, never had a set of snow tires, and I've never had a snow or weather related accident or gotten stuck after 20+ years of driving on all season tires.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Strudle

This is a circular argument with no clear objective, but still I have to point out I've lived in the Northeast my whole life, never had a set of snow tires, and I've never had a snow or weather related accident or gotten stuck after 20+ years of driving on all season tires.

Not sure what you mean with "circular argument" or "no clear objective" ?

This is where I would normally walk away from debate, but, simply cannot since someone might be reading after buying AWD vehicle and ignore the need for winter tires, and (hopefully not) pay dearly for it. It's great that all season tires worked for you your whole life, I'm not saying it's impossible to drive on them, but from personal experience I'm trying to tell you there's a lot better and safer choices to make.

Remember in my family we have both AWD and RWD currently, (and have owned FWD vehicles in the past), always with good winter tires except for the few years when I was young and naive (and with less disposable income). Same as you, I got around on all season tires just fine. I have also lived in Northeast for 20+ years and drive exclusively FWD vehicles in Europe frequently (sometimes in areas where standards of road maintenance don't quite meet North American standards, areas that are a lot more diverse terrain wise than Norteast).

Seems that you don't want to hear the other side of argument, instead you just keep repeating things that work for you as best possible solution and reasons to dismiss RWD or FWD vehicle purchase. On one hand you're arguing how you live in snowy area, nasty 5% of the country with lots of snow days, on the other, you dismiss use of winter tires. Sorry but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

All you have to do is to try driving with and without winter tires on the same road, same day, doesn't even have to be same vehicle, same drivetrain is desirable for this "test" though. You would quickly realize the difference in grip levels, cornering, stopping power and confidence winter tires can bring to your driving. And yes, it's that much better with AWD, but not with AWD on all season tires, no way !!! This I know for a fact since I tried it myself and have driven behind one too many AWD vehicles on all season tires struggling to find grip on nasty days.

But fine, don't trust some random person on the internet forum, here's first google hit on winter tires.
A bit more specific link to AWD.

[metallicpea]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Not sure what you mean with "circular argument" or "no clear objective" ?

This is where I would normally walk away from debate, but, simply cannot since someone might be reading after buying AWD vehicle and ignore the need for winter tires, and (hopefully not) pay dearly for it. It's great that all season tires worked for you your whole life, I'm not saying it's impossible to drive on them, but from personal experience I'm trying to tell you there's a lot better and safer choices to make.

Remember in my family we have both AWD and RWD currently, (and have owned FWD vehicles in the past), always with good winter tires except for the few years when I was young and naive (and with less disposable income). Same as you, I got around on all season tires just fine. I have also lived in Northeast for 20+ years and drive exclusively FWD vehicles in Europe frequently (sometimes in areas where standards of road maintenance don't quite meet North American standards, areas that are a lot more diverse terrain wise than Norteast).

Seems that you don't want to hear the other side of argument, instead you just keep repeating things that work for you as best possible solution and reasons to dismiss RWD or FWD vehicle purchase. On one hand you're arguing how you live in snowy area, nasty 5% of the country with lots of snow days, on the other, you dismiss use of winter tires. Sorry but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

All you have to do is to try driving with and without winter tires on the same road, same day, doesn't even have to be same vehicle, same drivetrain is desirable for this "test" though. You would quickly realize the difference in grip levels, cornering, stopping power and confidence winter tires can bring to your driving. And yes, it's that much better with AWD, but not with AWD on all season tires, no way this I know for a fact. I tried it myself and have driven behind one too many AWD vehicles on all season tires struggling to find grip on nasty days.

But fine, don't trust some random person on the internet forum, here's first google hit on winter tires.
A bit more specific link to AWD.

There is no doubt that snow tires provide more benefits over AWD with all season. Seriously, if the cost of a separate set of winter wheels & tires is too much for you, skip the AWD (which costs more) and go RWD with proper tires. Again, AWD with proper tires is going to be the best for winter driving, but you are stuck with the AWD system the other 300+ days of the year that you are not using it.

I agree that the argument for AWD to avoid running snow tires is flawed thinking and is very, very common. I do understand the idea of storing and swapping wheels twice a year is not desirable for many, but tire stores and dealers often have solutions for this, and this is the cost of truly safe winter driving.

What good is more grip for better acceleration with AWD, when you have the same limited stopping and cornering grip of a less than ideal winter tire? Stopping and steering, the true measures of safety are the same on a RWD and AWD model given the same set of tires. And when someone says they use the power grip of the front wheel to steer, I call BS, that doesn't help, actually hinders, and doesn't factor at all in practical higher speed maneuvering.

[Araemo]

One small item that was part of my decision:

In northeast ohio, the roads are snowy, icy, or very wet something like 1/2 of the year, and this is my daily driver. Sure, you can be completely safe and capable of getting where you're going with RWD and appropriate tires. But... I'm paying for a high performance car, and trying to accelerate quickly on slick surfaces with only two wheels is limiting the power delivery quite a bit. I want to be able to use the horsepower I paid for more of the year, so I went with AWD. Sure it doesn't get as sideways as RWD when you want to... but it gets sideways enough, especially on snowy parking lots.

If it was my second car, I would have gone RWD all the way (though I'm starting to rethink that, I actually like the AWD driving dynamics so far).

[shawntech]

xdrive all day, it's so nice to have immediate thrust under full boost in 1st gear.

[anotheran]

I live in a cold place
AWD or FWD for the daily driver
I much prefer RWD for the toss-ability but not even a consideration for daily driver.

Daily drivers get shared in the family. Had a RWD before that a less capable family member managed to lose control on a clear day but on a wet surface.

Family first. Fun car after.

[hollandog]

Originally Posted by Araemo

One small item that was part of my decision:

In northeast ohio, the roads are snowy, icy, or very wet something like 1/2 of the year, and this is my daily driver. Sure, you can be completely safe and capable of getting where you're going with RWD and appropriate tires. But... I'm paying for a high performance car, and trying to accelerate quickly on slick surfaces with only two wheels is limiting the power delivery quite a bit. I want to be able to use the horsepower I paid for more of the year, so I went with AWD. Sure it doesn't get as sideways as RWD when you want to... but it gets sideways enough, especially on snowy parking lots.

If it was my second car, I would have gone RWD all the way (though I'm starting to rethink that, I actually like the AWD driving dynamics so far).

I'm pretty sure you can put down the 320HP fine without AWD. The 340i isn't the M3. If you're that into performance, I hope you're wearing a set of proper summer tires. BMW's AWD system is no way by any mean performance oriented. You don't even get a proper sport suspension with xDrive without additional cost (and still crippled).

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by hollandog

I'm pretty sure you can put down the 320HP fine without AWD. The 340i isn't the M3. If you're that into performance, I hope you're wearing a set of proper summer tires. BMW's AWD system is no way by any mean performance oriented. You don't even get a proper sport suspension with xDrive without additional cost (and still crippled).

This.

[Strudle]

I don't understand why there's such a pervasive anti - X drive bias on this forum. Having just come from a Quattro Audi, I think X drive feels just as good. Also, on BMWs website, X drive models either match or outperform their RWD counterparts in 0 - 60 times. (FACT: If the M models came with X drive they would be faster to 60). They are still primarily RWD with a 60/40 split. (X1 excluded). I just drove my friend's RWD F30 in Dallas this weekend as a comparison and I don't buy the argument that the suspension is in any way superior to the X drive.

And this:

https://www.google.com/amp/jalopnik....1792513795/amp

[tuco44]

Originally Posted by ls3c6

xdrive all day, it's so nice to have immediate thrust under full boost in 1st gear.

Agree. Love the xDrive in my every day car.

[Araemo]

Originally Posted by hollandog

I'm pretty sure you can put down the 320HP fine without AWD. The 340i isn't the M3. If you're that into performance, I hope you're wearing a set of proper summer tires. BMW's AWD system is no way by any mean performance oriented. You don't even get a proper sport suspension with xDrive without additional cost (and still crippled).

Originally Posted by Polo08816

This.

The suspension difference worried me, but in practice, with adaptive suspension, I have no complaints so far. We'll see what I say after my first track day in it. As for the power.. my last car, with only 210 HP stock, couldn't put it down in the wet (And with 285 tuned, it really couldn't). With the 340, it's 330 stock, and 365 to the wheels with MPPSK. And yes, it came with summers, and next year I'll be putting pilot sports on it.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Strudle

I don't understand why there's such a pervasive anti - X drive bias on this forum. Having just come from a Quattro Audi, I think X drive feels just as good. Also, on BMWs website, X drive models either match or outperform their RWD counterparts in 0 - 60 times. (FACT: If the M models came with X drive they would be faster to 60). They are still primarily RWD with a 60/40 split. (X1 excluded). I just drove my friend's RWD F30 in Dallas this weekend as a comparison and I don't buy the argument that the suspension is in any way superior to the X drive.

And this:

https://www.google.com/amp/jalopnik....1792513795/amp

So why don't M models come with xDrive then, as of today anyway ?
You surely will agree those are "the best" performance vehicles BMW has to ofer?

I wouldn't call it bias against xDrive though. Those of us criticizing it do so mostly because of slightly higher center of gravity (higher by 10 or 20mm comparing to available RWD options) and additional weight making somewhat softer base suspension feel less sporty. All you have to do is search for something like "upgrading xDrive suspension" in these forums, you will find many threads on the subject. Maybe this all gets addressed in next generation (or rumored xDrive M car) to come.

Now you say you don't feel any difference between the two and that's great, some of us do. But I also doubt you can tell the difference of 0.2 sec. in acceleration between the two in blind test.

To me xDrive with stock suspension understeers slightly when compared to RWD, feels (and it is) heavier and has more body roll than I would want. I think they are great, I really do, and keep repeating that, but it's just not exactly how I'd want it. In addition, I find other manufacturers to be more competitive with BMW in AWD segment than RWD. Bottom line, we all vote with our money, no need convincing each other one is better than other, or trashing other's choice. I'm happy with my choice and just trying to offer different point of view.

[Strudle]

Bottom line, we all vote with our money, no need convincing each other one is better than other, or trashing other's choice

Agreed.

[Shadycrew31]

Try going uphill from a stop in a snowstorm with RWD, then with AWD.

This is why you get AWD.

That said Xdrive is complete garbage compared to Quattro so in the BMW world its most likely better to get RWD.

[Zentan]

Originally Posted by Altima

Excellent choice! You will not regret it. Once you take it in for service, they probably will get you an xDrive loaner.. Then you can push it and do your own comparisons as I was able to do.

Anyway what type of tires does your car have? If driving in ice/snow/rain during winter, please verify that they are at least All Season (M + S on the tires written somewhere).. You can snap a pic and send it here as well to verify.

So winter tips: Push the DTC button to activate DTC Mode when driving in the snow, turn it off when back on the pavement if you are trying to just drive safely. It will tone down the ESC so it doesn't apply too much braking to the front wheels when trying to get through the snow. (ESC brakes individual wheels in less than a second to keep the car pointed where your steering wheel is pointed, but this could work against forward momentum in deeper snow)
It will also allow a little bit of wheel spin which is sometimes needed to get through it.

On a snowy day, go to an empty parking lot and play around with the car a bit to learn the limits.. Test it out in the different driving modes, DTC On/Off, etc. to learn how the car will behave.
While going slow, brake the wheels hard every once in awhile on a backroad to "Test" the traction. Also stab the gas pedal sometimes to break traction for the same type of "test". It will give you an idea of how much you have before getting onto a main road.

Otherwise Enjoy the car! Congrats! Pics please!

Originally Posted by Altima

Excellent choice! You will not regret it. Once you take it in for service, they probably will get you an xDrive loaner.. Then you can push it and do your own comparisons as I was able to do.

Anyway what type of tires does your car have? If driving in ice/snow/rain during winter, please verify that they are at least All Season (M + S on the tires written somewhere).. You can snap a pic and send it here as well to verify.

So winter tips: Push the DTC button to activate DTC Mode when driving in the snow, turn it off when back on the pavement if you are trying to just drive safely. It will tone down the ESC so it doesn't apply too much braking to the front wheels when trying to get through the snow. (ESC brakes individual wheels in less than a second to keep the car pointed where your steering wheel is pointed, but this could work against forward momentum in deeper snow)
It will also allow a little bit of wheel spin which is sometimes needed to get through it.

On a snowy day, go to an empty parking lot and play around with the car a bit to learn the limits.. Test it out in the different driving modes, DTC On/Off, etc. to learn how the car will behave.
While going slow, brake the wheels hard every once in awhile on a backroad to "Test" the traction. Also stab the gas pedal sometimes to break traction for the same type of "test". It will give you an idea of how much you have before getting onto a main road.

Otherwise Enjoy the car! Congrats! Pics please!

Great advice! Thank you. Since you've asked, here's my baby.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Shadycrew31

Try going uphill from a stop in a snowstorm with RWD, then with AWD.

This is why you get AWD.

Yeah, very good reason, no doubt.
I have to ask though, have you tried it with good winter tires - do you know for a fact it's impossible? How do you think people did it in the past, remember, Benz and BMW in the past had mostly RWD cars. Did everyone just wait for spring with their family in the car at the spot they got caught by snowstorm?

AWD absolutely does it better with same tires, no doubt, but can also get in trouble "from a stop on the hill in a snowstorm", contrary to popular belief, they actually can't fly in the snowstorm either.

[Araemo]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

So why don't M models come with xDrive then, as of today anyway ?

Note the M5 is confirmed to be xDrive only next generation.

I wouldn't call it bias against xDrive though. Those of us criticizing it do so mostly because of slightly higher center of gravity (higher by 10 or 20mm comparing to available RWD options) and additional weight making somewhat softer base suspension feel less sporty. All you have to do is search for something like "upgrading xDrive suspension" in these forums, you will find many threads on the subject. Maybe this all gets addressed in next generation (or rumored xDrive M car) to come.

Now you say you don't feel any difference between the two and that's great, some of us do. But I also doubt you can tell the difference of 0.2 sec. in acceleration between the two in blind test.

To me xDrive with stock suspension understeers slightly when compared to RWD, feels (and it is) heavier and has more body roll than I would want. I think they are great, I really do, and keep repeating that, but it's just not exactly how I'd want it. In addition, I find other manufacturers to be more competitive with BMW in AWD segment than RWD. Bottom line, we all vote with our money, no need convincing each other one is better than other, or trashing other's choice. I'm happy with my choice and just trying to offer different point of view.

You have a number of valid concerns, but regarding your understeer comment: Have you had a chance to really test out an LCI 340i xDrive? Most reviews that comment on it suggest it is noticeably improved in that respect compared to pre-LCI, and I have noticed no issues so far... but again, I haven't had it on the track yet.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Araemo

Note the M5 is confirmed to be xDrive only next generation.

I read about it possibly being xDrive but didn't know it was confirmed.
And that might be the best thing that ever happened to xDrive, I have zero issue with xDrive as a technology or way BMW implemented it comparing to others. It's different shades of gray, who can for sure say which one is best, who cares anyway. I just have an issue with lack of suspension choice on xDrive for current generation.

Originally Posted by Araemo

You have a number of valid concerns, but regarding your understeer comment: Have you had a chance to really test out an LCI 340i xDrive? Most reviews that comment on it suggest it is noticeably improved in that respect compared to pre-LCI, and I have noticed no issues so far... but again, I haven't had it on the track yet.

I have tried 2016 228 and 328, 2014 335 and various 5 series with xDrive configuration. And for sure comparing to my car, I can notice "ever so slight" understeer with all of them. Now, all of those came with stock RF tires which I don't have on my car, so perhaps a bit of grip is lost there and also traditionally RWD will oversteer a bit, this might be matter of preference/habit. That's why I said "comparing to RWD".

[Zentan]

Could someone quickly elaborate on the major differences on the suspension system in the RWD vs Xdrive models? Heard that the suspense on the RWD models are "sportier" than Xdrive's?

[hollandog]

Originally Posted by Araemo

Note the M5 is confirmed to be xDrive only next generation.


You have a number of valid concerns, but regarding your understeer comment: Have you had a chance to really test out an LCI 340i xDrive? Most reviews that comment on it suggest it is noticeably improved in that respect compared to pre-LCI, and I have noticed no issues so far... but again, I haven't had it on the track yet.

The M5 AWD system is rumored to be completely different than xDrive. It will be a performance focused system, which xDrive isn't. Rumor was you could switch between AWD and RWD in the M5 with a button.

I feel like xDrive was utility focused for the snow belt market. Imagine how much sales they would lose to Audi and others if they don't have xDrive. You don't add 10mm ride height to add performance.

[Araemo]

Originally Posted by Zentan

Could someone quickly elaborate on the major differences on the suspension system in the RWD vs Xdrive models? Heard that the suspense on the RWD models are "sportier" than Xdrive's?

For the 340i:

"Sport" suspension is not offered on xDrive models. If you look at the option list, it's a distinct difference. The Sport and M Sport packages for RWD have 'sport suspension' and "Adaptive M Sport suspension". The Sport and M Sport packages for xDrive do not include the word sport.. the sport/msport packages default to the same suspension as the non-sport package xDrive.

Sport suspension means shorter, stiffer springs (lower the car, make it stiffer to start with). Note that even stock to stock (non-sport) suspensions differ between RWD and xDrive (as they should). Though some of the differences are driven by market segment rather than performance (xDrive is softer than it has to be, I believe, due to the desires of most people who buy RWD vs AWD).

My opinion based on what I've read about adaptive suspensions is: Adaptive allows you to get the same wheel control with softer springs, getting the 'best' of both worlds. Does that mean that stiffer springs with lower ride height wouldn't help even more? And you can get Adaptive M-Sport suspension on the RWD, which has the stiffer, lower springs AND the adaptive dampers.

[hollandog]

Originally Posted by Zentan

Could someone quickly elaborate on the major differences on the suspension system in the RWD vs Xdrive models? Heard that the suspense on the RWD models are "sportier" than Xdrive's?

Msport package on RWD has standard M suspension that's 10mm lower than regular suspension. Msport package on AWD has regular xDrive suspension that's the softest version of all F30 suspensions. Even if you paid $700 for M Adaptive it doesn't lower 10mm for xDrive. You're forced to go after market if you want it lower.