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      09-06-2019, 05:29 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by isleaiw1 View Post
Well on the subject, apparently on Question Time, Thornberry said that if Labour were in power they would negotiate with the EU "to the best of their ability" (low bar) and then put it to a referendum where she would campaign against the deal they had negotiated in favour of remain.....

I think that about sums up where we are at... Please negotiate with us but dont go to too much trouble as we dont really want it and the worse it is the easier it is to persuade people to remain....
Agreed - trying to convince both Leave and Remain voters that Labour are on their side, has led to the absurd position!
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      09-06-2019, 05:41 AM   #24
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I get the impression that if there was a second referendum then there is a not insignificant chance that the result would be to remain. There are a number of reasons why this might be the case, but Google searching seems to suggest it’s a real possibility.

I am not advocating a second referendum and as a remain voter, like others I would like to see them just get the f*ck on with it. However given that more than three years have passed since the original vote, for how long does that vote remain and is considered the will of the people? Some have mentioned that to not leave the EU or to have a second referendum would be undemocratic, but given that General Elections are repeated every 4-5 years giving voters the opportunity to change their minds based on past performance, a little part of me wonders if a second referendum wouldn't be the pragmatic option? We seem to have more facts about what Brexit would actually mean although I dare say both sides would still lie and spin like crazy in the lead up to any second vote. Anyway, if the vote is still to leave then surely that would give our inept politicians more impetus to sort the whole damned mess out, and would silence the remain voters (myself included) into the bargain?
I expect a lot of people hold similar views, but there's a big difference between the GE process and the three years since the Referendum took place.

After a GE the elected party forms a government and governs the country (or attempts to !). The electorate have (usually) several years to experience life with the governing party in power : did it hold true to its manifesto ? did it substantially change taxes ? have key investments been made and are the results clear ? etc.

The fundamental difference with Ref2 is that the result of Ref1 haven't been implemented yet. People are still relying on predictions, not realities. Spin, not facts. (awaits the Remain torrent of "facts ? they lied !").

At this stage I'm becoming less fixated on the outcome and far more concerned about the blatant disregard for democracy that MPs are demonstrating. I find it truly unbelievable. There was a vote, and the result of the vote hasn't been respected. How will the electorate trust the outcome of any significant future vote i.e. a GE ? Call for GE2 the following week if the result doesn't go their way, citing Ref2 as precedent ? We live in crazy times.

Politics in this country has become a cynical game, played by MPs acting with impunity. Some may argue that it's always been that way, but I think it's developed into something far worse.
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      09-06-2019, 05:45 AM   #25
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The political developments this week have been shocking. We now have unelected parties cutting the legs from underneath the elected government, not only by not backing the governments proposals (I have not issue with this - not agreeing is perfectly normal), but forming new laws which dictate what the government cannot do (use No Deal as a negotiating tool) and dictate what the PM must do (go to the EU to request an extension to A50). Labour, the LibDems and the SNP have not been elected into government but are now effectively running the country.

Irrespective of Brexit being at the centre of this particular situation, people should be up in arms about this blatant power-grab.
Although he may only now be realising this, Boris is not the President, he is the Prime Minister. As such he must command a majority in Parliament to create laws and govern. If his proposals are so extreme that even his own side won't back him, that is a parliamentary democracy doing its job.

It is a little strange having new laws formed by other parties, admittedly, but desperate times...

It is time for Boris to go. The other parties are now in a position to form a GNU, if they can reach agreement, extend article 50, and then call an election.
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      09-06-2019, 06:03 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by TouringPleb View Post
Exactly the same.

Voted remain. Sick and tired of it all. Just want it sorted one way or the other. If it's leave, then for God's sake just leave.
I don't think that just leaving will provide the end to uncertainty that some imagine. We'll spend the next decade with a great deal of uncertainty as trade deals are negotiated, the most significant ones from a position of weakness. Negotiating the withdrawal agreement with the EU was the easy part.

We will face campaigns and probably referendums on Scottish independence, and perhaps Irish reunification. So I suspect that far from bringing certainty, leaving will just fire the starting gun of a chaotic decade or two.
I agree, there will be years of uncertainty and adjustment.

But at least when (if!) we leave we know where we stand and can start making concrete plans .
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      09-06-2019, 06:46 AM   #27
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Every time someone predicts an outcome related to BREXIT something entirely different seems to happen!

The Labour, Lib-Dems and SNP's plan to avoid an election and no-deal relies on an extension being granted by the EU. Personally, I think that is far from certain, having seen Verholdstadt tear into Tusk last time.... It would be understandable if they did not want a trapped / desperate Boris with a veto over EU business.

We could end up out on the 31 October because in reality it is not the UK's choice unless Art.50 is revoked.. Groundhog day anyone?
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      09-06-2019, 06:59 AM   #28
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Every time someone predicts an outcome related to BREXIT something entirely different seems to happen!

The Labour, Lib-Dems and SNP's plan to avoid an election and no-deal relies on an extension being granted by the EU. Personally, I think that is far from certain, having seen Verholdstadt tear into Tusk last time.... It would be understandable if they did not want a trapped / desperate Boris with a veto over EU business.

We could end up out on the 31 October because in reality it is not the UK's choice unless Art.50 is revoked.. Groundhog day anyone?
Technically you're right but the EU wants the UK to remain as part of the club and so as long as there's a chance that could happen they'll extend IMO. Yes there'll be posturing along the way from people like Macron but when push comes to shove I don't think they'd force us out with no deal when there's a possibility Brexit could be overturned altogether.
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      09-06-2019, 07:13 AM   #29
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Technically you're right but the EU wants the UK to remain as part of the club and so as long as there's a chance that could happen they'll extend IMO. Yes there'll be posturing along the way from people like Macron but when push comes to shove I don't think they'd force us out with no deal when there's a possibility Brexit could be overturned altogether.
Agree with your reasoning, but I'm not so sure they will trust Boris to act in the EU's best interests whilst the UK occupys such a powerful position in its deliberations.
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      09-06-2019, 08:04 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JNW1 View Post
Technically you're right but the EU wants the UK to remain as part of the club and so as long as there's a chance that could happen they'll extend IMO. Yes there'll be posturing along the way from people like Macron but when push comes to shove I don't think they'd force us out with no deal when there's a possibility Brexit could be overturned altogether.
Agree with your reasoning, but I'm not so sure they will trust Boris to act in the EU's best interests whilst the UK occupys such a powerful position in its deliberations.
We all know a UK General Election is coming and one potential outcome is the return of a pro-Remain government; while that's still a possibility the EU won't chuck us out without a deal IMO.
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      09-06-2019, 08:04 AM   #31
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Quite.
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      09-06-2019, 08:30 AM   #32
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It is quite funny how everyone feels able to justify their position through some form of democracy.. amazing how one relatively simple concept can lead to very different "principles" and justification of certain behaviour, decisions and actions.
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      09-06-2019, 08:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isleaiw1 View Post
Well on the subject, apparently on Question Time, Thornberry said that if Labour were in power they would negotiate with the EU "to the best of their ability" (low bar) and then put it to a referendum where she would campaign against the deal they had negotiated in favour of remain.....

I think that about sums up where we are at... Please negotiate with us but dont go to too much trouble as we dont really want it and the worse it is the easier it is to persuade people to remain....
Just seen the clip of this. It is genuinely staggering!!

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      09-06-2019, 09:03 AM   #34
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Just seen the clip of this. It is genuinely staggering!!

I know sums up the situation with Labour really..Dont forget thats the women that was sneering at an England flag hanging from a window while campaigning during the World cup..or Euros cant recall, but she lost her position at the time over it....shes fucking horrible.
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      09-06-2019, 09:37 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Witney View Post
Just seen the clip of this. It is genuinely staggering!!

Yep, she's right at the bottom of the IQ scale along with Dianne Abbott.

Her ineptitude is only slightly more staggering than the fact the we pay people like this to be in parliament.
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      09-06-2019, 09:40 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
Yep, she's right at the bottom of the IQ scale along with Dianne Abbott.

Her ineptitude is only slightly more staggering than the fact the we pay people like this to be in parliament.
Yeah and i think shes a Lawyer ...apparently...shes just arrogant and horrid..
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      09-06-2019, 10:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
Yep, she's right at the bottom of the IQ scale along with Dianne Abbott.

Her ineptitude is only slightly more staggering than the fact the we pay people like this to be in parliament.
Yeah and i think shes a Lawyer ...apparently...shes just arrogant and horrid..
Thornberry isn't the smartest around but she's one of the brightest in the shadow cabinet by a long chalk.
Her expression as Fiona Bruce develops her question is priceless. One of the best "Oh f**k, here we go" moments in a long time. She knows that Labour's confusing and confused position on Brexit is risible and has struggled to tow the party line for years.
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      09-06-2019, 02:45 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Watsey View Post
....The EU would, of course, simply brush the dust off the existing WA or offer a worse deal - after all, if it's Deal or Remain, the Deal may as well be as bad as possible....
This is the nub now that parliament has taken control of UK policy making. Take a shitter of a deal or remain. A majority voting to extend A50 just want to revoke it anyway (with or without Ref 2).

I heard a radio interview with Lisa Nandy (Lab MP) who said if the WA was brought back she'd now vote for it. If it did come back for a meanginful vote, it COULD get through (though Boris purged c.20 tories who would have also voted for it!). I suspect Boris will try for that (getting some tweaks) but he won't get anything substantive given he's now got zero negotiating power. Either that or we'll find him in a ditch.
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      09-07-2019, 01:47 AM   #39
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I don’t see how a GE will solve this issues, I think Labour will be demolished which is a good thing in my mind but with the negative that the Brexit party comes out with quite a few seats. Lib Dem’s gain which makes remain stronger etc, it will be just shuffling the pack with no real change of what’s left in the deck.

After all we are in this position for the simple reason Cameron was trying to stop Farage gaining any parliamentary seats, now Johnson is opening the door to that. This is scary as the guy is a total idiot, at least on par with JC..

Either way the result wouldn’t give a mandate on Brexit as in theory a GE is about ALL of the parties policies not just Brexit..

The only way to give a direct mandate to the government is Ref2, as many have said we don’t really want this however this is the only was to have a clear direct mandate without the other policies muddying the waters..
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      09-07-2019, 11:57 AM   #40
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They are all a bunch of useless bankers. W.
Boris showed promise in doing SOMETHING at least but over played it and marshalled the remain lot together.

I really can see Theresa May's deal with a few tweaks around the back stop coming back and getting through.
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      09-07-2019, 12:49 PM   #41
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They are all a bunch of useless bankers. W.
Boris showed promise in doing SOMETHING at least but over played it and marshalled the remain lot together.

I really can see Theresa May's deal with a few tweaks around the back stop coming back and getting through.
So the new slogan is “a bad deal is better than no deal”.....

What an almighty cluster..

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      09-07-2019, 02:15 PM   #42
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Whilst I agree with you that he's making himself look as useful as a chocolate fireguard (nothing new there)....

I actually agree with him about the whole extension thing. Parliament keep forcing no deal off the table and make us ask the EU for an extension and it keeps going round in circles. They wouldn't back the deal that we got... so where the hell do they go from here? Are they just planning on constantly asking for an extension? It's as if they are living in denial.

For the record I voted remain and would very much like the whole thing cancelled and us to remain, but I'm now actually fed up of the whole thing and the sheer incompetence of all politicians and just want it done with.

I can't see a deal being done, so it's either crash out or cancel.

An election may solve it, I'm not sure how I'd vote as I assume Boris would campaign on getting us out no matter what.
I would assume Labour might campaign promising a second referendum? Trouble is I can't bring myself to vote for Corbyn, I think he'd probably be worse for the country than a no deal!

One has to assume if Labour had a reputable leader they'd be virtually guaranteed of winning an election against this government.
Absolutely 100% where I am on this whole subject!
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      09-07-2019, 02:33 PM   #43
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https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/...mpression=true

The largest newspaper in Canada on Boris Johnson and the state of UK politics.
How others see us, eh?!!
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      09-08-2019, 04:48 AM   #44
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Rudd gone now as well, this current Tory party is now beyond the pale, I've voted for them for the last 30 years but this is the end, what's happening now is a disgrace and they've lost their minds.

The party has been taken over by a cabal of "no dealers" which I can only compare to Militant back in the 80's in terms of a group of people who wish to destroy a party and a country in order to meet their aims.

It's a sad day when the Tories make Corbyn and McDonnell look reasonable.
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