[C320]

Originally Posted by bishbosh

My daughter has her driving test booked for the end of March, she did a mock test with her instructor today who said she'd have passed if it was the proper test.

I've also been taking her out for practice sessions between her proper lessons and have been drilling into her to assume that every other road user is an idiot. Prime example being don't assume someone indicating left on a roundabout is going to take the next exit, pulling out and having the other driver running into you.

The number of people I see who indicate way too early is shocking.

I'll be doing the same, getting lots of practice in once her instructor has covered the key stuff with her.

Yes roundabouts are a particularly bad point, so many people have no idea on lane choice and when and how to indicate correctly.

Out of interest to all those who have kids learning or have recently passed - did your child learn on a manual?

My daughter no longer has any desire to learn on a manual - her rationale was sound in that automatics are far more common and in a few years time when it's all EV they're all automatics anyway!

Did try to tempt / encourage her to rethink - such as what about driving some older classic exotic stuff in the future, or what to do when hiring cars abroad, particularly somewhere far flung!

[Pond]

[QUOTE=C320;30847468
Out of interest to all those who have kids learning or have recently passed - did your child learn on a manual?

My daughter no longer has any desire to learn on a manual - her rationale was sound in that automatics are far more common and in a few years time when it's all EV they're all automatics anyway!

Did try to tempt / encourage her to rethink - such as what about driving some older classic exotic stuff in the future, or what to do when hiring cars abroad, particularly somewhere far flung![/QUOTE]

Had a similar issue a few months back. Daughter was struggling with clutch control for a long time. Looked into automatic lessons (and cars) but actually couldn't find an instructor locally for autos!
The ONLY auto instructor locally works three weekdays 10-4pm. When all the kids are at school. Bloody brilliant business plan.
So she persevered in a manual and got there in the end.

The idea of 'if you can drive a manual you can drive anything' was the way we looked at it.

[C320]

Originally Posted by Pond

Had a similar issue a few months back. Daughter was struggling with clutch control for a long time. Looked into automatic lessons (and cars) but actually couldn't find an instructor locally for autos!
The ONLY auto instructor locally works three weekdays 10-4pm. When all the kids are at school. Bloody brilliant business plan.
So she persevered in a manual and got there in the end.

The idea of 'if you can drive a manual you can drive anything' was the way we looked at it.

That's exactly what I've been struggling to explain to her. Even discussed it on the way home from school tonight

I was trying to describe the feeling of car control and she thinks I'm mad. It's not helped by her conversations with her American cousins who can pass on Autos and then figure out how a 'stick shift' works later (her cousins don't seem to care either, they just want their licences!)

On that auto instructor observation, yeah that's crazy working 10-4. Nice work if you can get it I guess, feels like they may be missing an opportunity!

[Pentland]

Originally Posted by Pond

Had a similar issue a few months back. Daughter was struggling with clutch control for a long time. Looked into automatic lessons (and cars) but actually couldn't find an instructor locally for autos!
The ONLY auto instructor locally works three weekdays 10-4pm. When all the kids are at school. Bloody brilliant business plan.
So she persevered in a manual and got there in the end.

The idea of 'if you can drive a manual you can drive anything' was the way we looked at it.

I think that kinda sums up the crux of bad driving. I think many just want to get around. They have no interest in driving so it’s not a skill to be learned (or one that comes naturally) but a need, a chore. Consequently many are bad at it. I’m bad at skiing so I stay off the slopes and do different sports. Bad drivers however, stay on the roads and don’t take alternate transportation.

[TurboWeasel]

Originally Posted by Pentland

Still not quite right.

Broken white lines are lane dividers, you should keep between them. No requirement to give way. However, rule 133 comes into play (MSM).

You don’t get a single solid white line on the off side except as a bus lane / segregated lane marking. I think you are thinking about double solid white lines or solid white line with a parallel dashed line.

Solid white lines on the near side are road edge markings. Feel free to cross those

Give way markings at a junction are broken double white lines preceded with a white inverted triangle.

Someone forcing into a lane is different to someone who hasn’t seen you, or simply ignoring you when merging in. Forcing in suggests that you can both see each other and there is confrontation in which case you are equally to blame and you can easily solve the conflict by yeilding. For the 2nd situation, usually a sound of the horn to indicate your presence is enough to alert the other driver. Excessive braking in any case is clearly an emergency last resort.

I stand corrected then That was how my instructor taught me way back in 1990! It was mainly when joining a carriageway off a slip road, his teachings were the broken lines meant give way to the faster moving traffic, and to not just pull out in front of someone. Same applies when moving into the outside lane.

Basically, if your manoeuvre causes people to brake sharply, then it's poor judgement, etiquette and/or driving without due care and attention, but I suppose the 'rules' can be blurred a bit when it comes to driver behaviour.

What I meant by someone forcing their way in is in a typical scenario where you've come off an intersection roundabout in the outside lane, and committed to an overtake with judicious application of the gas pedal....and then the person you're just about to pass indicates and barges over unexpectedly, causing me to brake hard. Well, it's more of a single indicate and steer movement at once, giving me little time to react.

I didn't mean someone wanting to move over gracefully and in plenty of time. I do read the road ahead and try and predict what people are going to do, but sometimes.....you just get twonks to deal with.

I am by no means an advanced driving god, but some days, you just think, really?!

[Pond]

Originally Posted by C320

That's exactly what I've been struggling to explain to her. Even discussed it on the way home from school tonight

I was trying to describe the feeling of car control and she thinks I'm mad. It's not helped by her conversations with her American cousins who can pass on Autos and then figure out how a 'stick shift' works later (her cousins don't seem to care either, they just want their licences!)

On that auto instructor observation, yeah that's crazy working 10-4. Nice work if you can get it I guess, feels like they may be missing an opportunity!

My daughter was exactly the same (in her naivety). Strange thing is, as soon as she passed her test (which I really didn't think she would TBH), she has become interested in driving and really wants to be 'good' at it.

We are not anywhere near yet, as yesterday she was talking about putting fuel in her car and thought it took 1.6 litres of fuel to fill! Bless her, she was getting confused with the cc of the engine!

[Pond]

Originally Posted by Pentland

I think that kinda sums up the crux of bad driving. I think many just want to get around. They have no interest in driving so it’s not a skill to be learned (or one that comes naturally) but a need, a chore. Consequently many are bad at it. I’m bad at skiing so I stay off the slopes and do different sports. Bad drivers however, stay on the roads and don’t take alternate transportation.

One thing I have learned recently is that not everyone takes to driving a car naturally. I couldn't understand why my daughter kept making the same mistakes over and over again. And it became a problem for a while in our household, believe me.
Some people just 'get it' and others just don't no matter how much practice they have. Almost anyone can be taught to drive safely (ish) but that is a far cry from being a decent driver. Experience is a massive factor in the latter IMO aswell.

Having a basic knowledge of how a car works helps immensely IMHO, but a 17 year old girl is generally not at all interested and probably never will be.

[fortythirtyfive]

Originally Posted by Alscoob

Not many people read the road and traffic situation IMO or practice defensive driving (don't put yourself in a position you can't get out of). They tailgate the car in front of them and I doubt if they have a clue what is happening 100m further up the road, seem to be on & off the brakes all the time. I generally stay well clear.

I was recently traveling back north from Eastbourne to North Yorks and had this exact whole situation around me.

Just before Heathrow I saw the gantry light up to say accident in the outside lane, however everything more or less came to halt early right there. Turns out the accident about 800m down the motorway had everyone slamming on and all the tailgaters had jumped into the back of each other, 2 cars in front, then another set 2 cars behind me.

Worst of all they idiots who had given themselves 6ft space and bumper tapped each other had the stupidest idea ever, they decided to swing a sharp 90 degree turn to the left, cut horizontally across all 4 lanes to get on the hard shoulder but because they weren't merging they t-boned themselves into some poor sod in lane 1!!

Never in my life have I wanted to change motorway so fast in all my life and escape the people I was sharing the road with, it was like the raining cars scene out of Fate off the Furious

[APJ]

I agree with everything everyone has said, i also believe there is too much reliance on technology. It appears to me that people get in a vehicle and think that all the modern safety features of car, means that they don't have to read the road because the car will do it for them.
Cars a just a means of A to B, and the quicker they can do that, the better it is for them.
I can't believe i'm saying this, but maybe the quicker we have fully automatic driving cars, the safer it is, for ourselves and our children.

[goram]

I bet our parents used to talk like this too!

[TurboWeasel]

Originally Posted by APJ

I agree with everything everyone has said, i also believe there is too much reliance on technology. It appears to me that people get in a vehicle and think that all the modern safety features of car, means that they don't have to read the road because the car will do it for them.

Modern cars do a good job of rescuing people from driver errors to be fair. I remember in my E30 days, my 325i would try and throw me off the road in damp conditions very easily if I didn't drive it carefully. By comparison, an F30 needs stupid inputs to get it wildly out of shape.

The amount of power that is easily accessible to younguns now is crazy. Even a basic MK5 GTI can do 150 mph without much fuss, let alone all the M lites I see young kids driving around in. My first car had 54hp and would have folded up like a cardboard box if I stacked it. So I suppose there is a higher chance of surviving an accident these days to be thankful for.

[Pond]

Originally Posted by TurboWeasel

The amount of power that is easily accessible to younguns now is crazy.

That is a very good point. My 17 year old daughter's Mini has 120bhp. My first 'performance' car after a good few years of driving was a 1983 XR3i which had 115bhp and was a bigger car.

[Wibbles]

Driving standards since COVID have dropped dramatically, every day I am having to think for other bellends on the road....

[Pentland]

Originally Posted by TurboWeasel

Modern cars do a good job of rescuing people from driver errors to be fair. I remember in my E30 days, my 325i would try and throw me off the road in damp conditions very easily if I didn't drive it carefully. By comparison, an F30 needs stupid inputs to get it wildly out of shape.

The amount of power that is easily accessible to younguns now is crazy. Even a basic MK5 GTI can do 150 mph without much fuss, let alone all the M lites I see young kids driving around in. My first car had 54hp and would have folded up like a cardboard box if I stacked it. So I suppose there is a higher chance of surviving an accident these days to be thankful for.

Yup.
While cars have become more powerful over the years, they have also become safer and easier to drive. However, that doesn’t negate the skill or experience needed to drive moderately powerful “normal” family cars.

A couple of things I’ve always felt missing in the path to obtaining and maintaining a licence are:
You don’t need any training to pass the driving test.
You can go from a 50bhp car to a Bugatti without a by your leave from day 1.
There is no regular ongoing assessment you can drive from 17 for the next 80+ years so long as you are fit enough.

[crAbb]

Originally Posted by Pentland

I think that kinda sums up the crux of bad driving. I think many just want to get around. They have no interest in driving so it’s not a skill to be learned (or one that comes naturally) but a need, a chore. Consequently many are bad at it. I’m bad at skiing so I stay off the slopes and do different sports. Bad drivers however, stay on the roads and don’t take alternate transportation.

Bullseye! As my late father used to remind me, you wouldn't want a brain surgeon operating on you, that didn't enjoy his job!

[TurboWeasel]

Originally Posted by Pond

That is a very good point. My 17 year old daughter's Mini has 120bhp. My first 'performance' car after a good few years of driving was a 1983 XR3i which had 115bhp and was a bigger car.

That is a great car for a youngling imo. Fun to drive and enough power to keep up with the flow of traffic.

My first rung on the performance car ladder was a MK2 Golf 16V. That thing was scary fast compared to the 1.3 Peugeot 205 I had prior, but it only weighed 1100kg or around that. The weight of modern cars has kind of tempered them a bit and don't feel as frenetic as the older hot hatches.

My friend went from a 1.2 Corsa to an Escort RS Turbo and pranged it a week later 3rd party only insurance as well, which cost £2.5K as an 18 year old back 1994! A loan for the car and a loan for the insurance. He was still paying for that quite a few years later. Still, the only way some people learn is via a wallet bashing. He drives a Volvo now

Another friend at that time 'borrowed' his Mum's Sierra Cosworth and wrapped it around a tree 15 minutes after setting off. Those two mates were the reason insurance was so high back then!

[TurboWeasel]

Originally Posted by Pentland

Yup.
While cars have become more powerful over the years, they have also become safer and easier to drive. However, that doesn’t negate the skill or experience needed to drive moderately powerful “normal” family cars.

A couple of things I’ve always felt missing in the path to obtaining and maintaining a licence are:
You don’t need any training to pass the driving test.
You can go from a 50bhp car to a Bugatti without a by your leave from day 1.
There is no regular ongoing assessment you can drive from 17 for the next 80+ years so long as you are fit enough.

Indeed. An added danger is when inexperienced young drivers get an M140i and then remap it. That kind of thing is all over YouTube to encourage them with crazy hp figures for little outlay, which is irresistible to them. I'm sure we've all seen the "Cars leaving a meet" type videos with younglings skidding all over the place and nearly rear ending other drivers minding their own business.

Thank god that capability wasn't around 30 years ago when tyres and brakes were rubbish!

I would say there is also a lack of motorway/dual carriageway tuition. I've seen plenty of younguns with P plates joining said roads at 30mph. It's quite scary the amount of aggression and tailgating I see on 70 limit roads as an adult with 34 years driving experience, so god knows what these kids must think going from 20-30mph roads to that!

[TiredGeek]

I think it's the "pass your test in 7 days" training. They're being taught to meet the minimum standard to pass the test, not actually being taught to drive.
I was taught to treet white lines like stone walls. Stick to your lane, don't just cut roundabouts and corners willy nilly. Slip roads, accelerate to the speed of the traffic on the main carriageway and merge into a gap, not drive along at 30, bung your indicator on (optional) and drive out and assume everyone else will avoid you. And since when do we drive in the right hand lane for miles and miles rather than pulling into the left? Again, poor training.

[Jon TDI]

I was told (a long time ago) “Once you pass your test, you then start to learn to drive”.

This statement is very true. However, I believe these days the initial training is just not enough.

[sl13]

This isn't confined to busy cities or motorways. My top gripes -

Slip roads onto dual cw or mways - the harsh braking on the part of those already on the road and the forcing out of idiots on the slip. Read the highway code...

Reversing. This is a major one. Nobody seems even remotely capable of reversing down a lane. I can do it witha stockbox or trailer and yet muppets in the smallest of cars ( and van drivers surprisingly) don't have a bloody clue. Ridiculous.

Roundabouts. People stopping at a clear roundabout and thus stacking up all the traffic behind. There's no need to stop if you look ahead and see it's clear.

If people looked down the road instead of their phones or end of their noses. I could go on but I don't have the hours...

[C320]

Originally Posted by Jon TDI

I was told (a long time ago) “Once you pass your test, you then start to learn to drive”.

This statement is very true. However, I believe these days the initial training is just not enough.

That's exactly what my instructor told me too!

[Pond]

Originally Posted by Jon TDI

I was told (a long time ago) “Once you pass your test, you then start to learn to drive”.

This statement is very true. However, I believe these days the initial training is just not enough.

I have been telling my daughter exactly the same; "passing the driving test is just to prove you are safe to be on the road with others. Learning to drive starts from here".

I can say from recent experience with my daughter's test (which I was quite shocked about TBH):
She didn't do an emergency stop (she seems to think they only do a certain number everyday). Maybe it's because it costs too much in iPads when they slam them on the dashboard!
She didn't do a three point turn (or turning around in the road).
She didn't do a hill start (tricky in the Lincs flatlands admittedly but still).
She didn't do reversing around a corner (they don't do that anymore at all apparently).
She didn't do much at all by the sound of it!