[johnung]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I believe the CSF is a 5.5" core, but it does cool well (should be a little better than the ATM and Evo 2)

The Wagner Evo 2 is one of the worst products that you carry bar none. It's more expensive and performs worse than any other intercooler named here.

I've never heard of MAD.

I'm curious. When you say "performs worse", are you basing your opinion only on IATs, or do you consider any other quantitative measurement?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by rjd_F30

I generally subscribe to the idea that bigger is better when it comes to FMICs, even if it does mean a bit of pressure drop: I'll take that in exchange for low IATs. However, I wouldn't say that the popular 5" models are too small for stage 2. Sure a bigger intercooler will do better, naturally, but the 5" isn't necessarily under performing or becoming a glaring weak point. When I do an FMIC I'm gonna get one of the big ones, but that doesn't mean people who choose a smaller one because they don't plan on anything past stage 2 and/or want to save a few bucks are doing something terribly wrong. Just my .02

IMO there is way too much fixation on IATs. That makes sense for guys who track. But for a daily driver, if someone is considering several FMICs and they are all capable of preventing heat soak for the specific horsepower tune and the intended driving, then IATs become a non-issue. IATs become a moot point.

If all the focus is on picking the FMIC with the lowest IATs, then it's likely that an FMIC will be chosen with a big pressure drop which equates to more turbo lag. For a daily driver, the Intake Pressure Drop of an upgraded FMIC must be considered.

I've got buddies who drive my car and then tell me that it seems really responsive to them compared to their own car. Often they have a big ass FMIC on their car that they chose solely based on IATs. They've gotten used to driving around with the turbo lag that it has caused. They just don't realize until they drive a car without turbo lag.

[Silverlining_m2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

No, it's really not. And while it's the HD Fin Pack, it's actually less dense than the competition and race. (16 fins an inch vs 20 fins an inch)

Next - here is you running into IAT issues in 64F (18C) Ambient temps. Your IAT goes 93F (34C) to 118F (48C) in [ONE GEAR.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=359
If you're struggling at this powerlevel, how do you think someone else in a hotter climate will fare?


This intercooler is too small for stage 2, and no one will convince me otherwise. Pay the extra hundred dollars and get the better product. Edit -it's $40 dollars.
https://www.vr-speed.com/vrsf-interc...i-n20-n55.html

Just for the sake of argument, here is a VRSF competition model in 79F ambient weather, stage 2 car:
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1752195

And here's another log with me operating with iat's 20° above ambient temp, Temps dropping during pull, and returning to 20° over ambient afterward. I get that it isn't the BEST option. I will likely upgrade this summer. But to say its inadequate is false. VRSF themselves claim that it is.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5fe7...729b406cb6507d

[brigade24]

Originally Posted by Jnursey

I am planning on running BM3 Stage 2 on my car (435i) along with catless DP, new CP, and FMIC.

I am ballin on a budget and was leaning towards a CTS Turbo or BMS intercooler (~$350) but a lot of what I am reading seems to suggest a more beefed up FMIC.

My question is, would I be fine with one of the "lower end" FMIC such as CTS, BMS, VRSF 5"? or is it majorly in my best interest to consider something more substantial?

How about the 6.5" VRSF (Performance)?

Also, I live in Florida just FYI.

Whats the application? Street machine? track warrior/autox? Covid-19 relief purchase? Fastn' Furious light to light?

If your keeping it relegated to street duty then you don't need anything big...that's just going to hurt your performance which is what you are looking to improve with an FMIC. Unless there is a turbo upgrade in your future, keep it real simple. There is a reason BMW used a tube and fin design instead of a bar and plate so again, you need to determine what your plan is since going too big or too small won't get the result you want. this is one of those items that really does depend on your plans/requirements.

trial and error is expensive so do your research.

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by johnung

IMO there is way too much fixation on IATs. That makes sense for guys who track. But for a daily driver, if someone is considering several FMICs and they are all capable of preventing heat soak for the specific horsepower tune and the intended driving, then IATs become a non-issue. IATs become a moot point.

If all the focus is on picking the FMIC with the lowest IATs, then it's likely that an FMIC will be chosen with a big pressure drop which equates to more turbo lag. For a daily driver, the Intake Pressure Drop of an upgraded FMIC must be considered.

I've got buddies who drive my car and then tell me that it seems really responsive to them compared to their own car. Often they have a big ass FMIC on their car that they chose solely based on IATs. They've gotten used to driving around with the turbo lag that it has caused. They just don't realize until they drive a car without turbo lag.

Really depends on preference. I'm certainly in the minority, but turbo lag doesn't much bother me. You're right though, picking an FMIC is just about balancing the FMICs heat soak fighting abilities against its pressure drop (and if you're really serious, the massive amount of weight you're hanging over the nose). Unfortunately those two seem to be pretty much mutually exclusive but again, that's where you have to make a choice.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by johnung

I'm curious. When you say "performs worse", are you basing your opinion only on IATs, or do you consider any other quantitative measurement?

Well, considering an intercooler's job is to lower IATs, I give the objective/quantifiable data more weight than subjective factors.

When I speak about the Wagner Evo series, I'm speaking in regards to their:

High Price: It's known that Tube and Fin intercoolers are cheaper to produce and manufacture, but Wagner sells theirs at a significant markup. The Evo 2 literally is the most expensive "stage 2" intercooler - meaning not only does it perform poorly, you get to pay extra for that cache to feel better about it.

Poor cooling performance: I've compiled a few threads/datalogs on the Evo series line up (I considered doing a spreadsheet, but I don't care that much) showing their subpar performance in comparison to other intercoolers.

Like here Evo 2 vs ATM track comparison (note the temperature deltas)
Or here
Evo 2 vs DO88 (note, this is not 3rd party data)
or here
VRSF RACE vs Evo 2 (30 degree difference in IAT - that's insane!)

Physics: The Evo 1/2 have not shown the ability to cool quicker/faster than other intercoolers. Period. I've seen multiple logs of the Evo 1/2 on these cars, and I've never seen any evidence that it cools down quicker than another kind of intercooler.

Wagner Evo 1 vs stock (note the Evo 1 cools down at the same rate as stock)
Or here
Evo 2 vs ATM street comparison (ATM cools down at the same rate as the Evo 2 and has lower absolute temperatures - even in daily driving)

The Wagner has less effective surface area (less rows/less fins) how it is possible for it to dissipate heat quicker?

Drivability...err Marketing: The claimed benefits of superior drivability are completely hearsay. Almost all intercoolers I've researched do not impact drivability. I can show you countless reviews, like this one
Evo 2 vs Evo 3 impressions where throttle response feels as good or better with a larger intercooler.
or this one
VRSF Competition model vs Stock

Fit and finish: I don't grade this too highly, but it matters. I know Wagner products fit well (the first time) and look nice. But they sit behind my bumper and aren't on the car for "bling" and the "fit the first time" doesn't mean much when all these models have been existing on the market for at least 5 years.

I'm just struggling to understand what people are debating here - the Evo Series intercoolers are not something I can recommend for any reason.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by f32spaceship

And here's another log with me operating with iat's 20° above ambient temp, Temps dropping during pull, and returning to 20° over ambient afterward. I get that it isn't the BEST option. I will likely upgrade this summer. But to say its inadequate is false. VRSF themselves claim that it is.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5fe7...729b406cb6507d

VRSF says that it supports 600whp - and I have no idea what that means. Flow? Pressure? IAT reduction?

We know it isn't IAT reduction because you're not even approaching those levels and you're still overheating in ONE multiple gear pull. This intercooler simply isn't adequate for what your asking it to do, and it has almost zero headroom for higher ambient temps - a concern in Florida.

I see a lot of talk on feel good talking points and little in the way of facts. You guys are really going to tell him that a 5" core we know to be struggling on similar cars, is an acceptable option for someone who lives in one of the hottest regions of the entire country - because the bigger option is $40 more?

[Munchi435i]

I run the evo comp 2 and have zero issues with heat soak in florida with my PS2. But from a cost standpoint I purchased mine used for a steal!! It came with ER charge pipe and ER turbo to intercooler pipe. Also, I dont track or beat the car so its great for what I need and if heat soaking was a concern I'd add a WMI kit.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Munchi435i

I run the evo comp 2 and have zero issues with heat soak in florida with my PS2. But from a cost standpoint I purchased mine used for a steal!! It came with ER charge pipe and ER turbo to intercooler pipe. Also, I dont track or beat the car so its great for what I need and if heat soaking was a concern I'd add a WMI kit.

Post a log.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Well, considering an intercooler's job is to lower IATs, I give the objective/quantifiable data more weight than subjective factors.

When I speak about the Wagner Evo series, I'm speaking in regards to their:

[COLOR="Red"]High Price[/COLOR]: It's known that Tube and Fin intercoolers are cheaper to produce and manufacture, but Wagner sells theirs at a significant markup. The Evo 2 literally is the most expensive "stage 2" intercooler - meaning not only does it perform poorly, you get to pay extra for that cache to feel better about it.

[COLOR="red"]Poor cooling performance[/COLOR]: I've compiled a few threads/datalogs on the Evo series line up (I considered doing a spreadsheet, but I don't care that much) showing their subpar performance in comparison to other intercoolers.

Like here Evo 2 vs ATM track comparison (note the temperature deltas)
Or here
Evo 2 vs DO88 (note, this is not 3rd party data)
or here
VRSF RACE vs Evo 2 (30 degree difference in IAT - that's insane!)

[COLOR="red"]Physics[/COLOR]: The Evo 1/2 have not shown the ability to cool quicker/faster than other intercoolers. Period. I've seen multiple logs of the Evo 1/2 on these cars, and I've never seen any evidence that it cools down quicker than another kind of intercooler.

Wagner Evo 1 vs stock (note the Evo 1 cools down at the same rate as stock)
Or here
Evo 2 vs ATM street comparison (ATM cools down at the same rate as the Evo 2 and has lower absolute temperatures - even in daily driving)

The Wagner has less effective surface area (less rows/less fins) how it is possible for it to dissipate heat quicker?

[COLOR="red"]Drivability...err Marketing[/COLOR]: The claimed benefits of superior drivability are completely hearsay. Almost all intercoolers I've researched do not impact drivability. I can show you countless reviews, like this one
Evo 2 vs Evo 3 impressions where throttle response feels as good or better with a larger intercooler.
or this one
VRSF Competition model vs Stock

[COLOR="red"]Fit and finish:[/COLOR] I don't grade this too highly, but it matters. I know Wagner products fit well (the first time) and look nice. But they sit behind my bumper and aren't on the car for "bling" and the "fit the first time" doesn't mean much when all these models have been existing on the market for at least 5 years.

I'm just struggling to understand what people are debating here - the Evo Series intercoolers are not something I can recommend for any reason.

I appreciate that you wrote a long response but it didn't really answer my question. It went off on tangents. You seemed to focus on IATs/cooling- which is what my question was. Is that the only quantitative thing you looked at? From your response it appears that your answer is YES.

You glossed over Intake Pressure Drop which is a quantitative measure just like IAT. Instead you talked around it with vague labels like "drivability", "marketing" and how "throttle response feels".

My point is that for street daily driver cars, not track cars, IATs are not the only measurement to consider. If several FMICs under consideration all have low enough IATs to prevent Heat Soak on a specific car, then IATs no longer matter for that group of FMICs that are being considered.

Then the decision making or should move onto considering the Intake Pressure Drop for each to choose an FMIC that isn't going to increase turbo lag in a daily driven street car. A decision making process that does not consider FMIC intake pressure drop is incomplete.

[FastF30]

VRSF 6.5" on sale $419.99.... can't beat that price per performance dollar value...

[Pussiwillow]

Originally Posted by FastF30

VRSF 6.5" on sale $419.99.... can't beat that price per performance dollar value...

Good looking out, that's a damn good price

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by FastF30

VRSF 6.5" on sale $419.99.... can't beat that price per performance dollar value...

Originally Posted by Pussiwillow

Good looking out, that's a damn good price

*Cough*

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

This intercooler is too small for stage 2, and no one will convince me otherwise. Pay the extra hundred dollars and get the better product. Edit -it's $40 dollars.

https://www.vr-speed.com/vrsf-interc...i-n20-n55.html

Just for the sake of argument, here is a VRSF competition model in 79F ambient weather, stage 2 car:
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1752195

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by johnung

I appreciate that you wrote a long response but it didn't really answer my question. It went off on tangents. You seemed to focus on IATs/cooling- which is what my question was. Is that the only quantitative thing you looked at? From your response it appears that your answer is YES.

At this point, I think you're just choosing not to understand what I'm posting.

Originally Posted by johnung

You glossed over Intake Pressure Drop which is a quantitative measure just like IAT. Instead you talked around it with vague labels like "drivability", "marketing" and how "throttle response feels".

What does pressure drop have to do with the conversation. How many PSI does the stock intercooler lose?
Wagner Evo?
I know the VRSF Race is .85psi

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

Our F30 race intercooler has .85 PSI pressure drop across the core. There is no noticeable increase in lag over the OEM intercooler..

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...5&postcount=93

I know the VRSF outflows the stock intercooler - all of them do:
VRSF Race IC Dyno

Wagner's Data:


Here is a larger EVO 3


So tell me, what's better?

Originally Posted by johnung

My point is that for street daily driver cars, not track cars, IATs are not the only measurement to consider. If several FMICs under consideration all have low enough IATs to prevent Heat Soak on a specific car, then IATs no longer matter for that group of FMICs that are being considered.

So you should pay more for a core that offers nothing in terms of IAT reduction, cooldown, and no noticeable difference in throttle response compared to another intercooler?

I'm sold.

Originally Posted by johnung

Then the decision making or should move onto considering the Intake Pressure Drop for each to choose an FMIC that isn't going to increase turbo lag in a daily driven street car. A decision making process that does not consider FMIC intake pressure drop is incomplete.

What does this mean? You keep on talking about pressure drop as the determining factor. But what if I told you almost all intercoolers sold offer less restriction than stock.

That includes the aforementioned VRSF Race

[Munchi435i]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Post a log.

https://datazap.me/u/munchi/ps2-e30-...og=0&data=4-23


Enjoy!

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Munchi435i

https://datazap.me/u/munchi/ps2-e30-...og=0&data=4-23


Enjoy!

The car went from 82 degrees to 88 degrees in 4th.

You shifted to 5th, and despite letting off off the throttle, the temperature keeps increasing to 93 degrees, before coming down to 91 while you coast.

10 degrees on a single gear pull is a lot, but I guess that's acceptable. If OP plans on only doing one WOT pull at a time, I guess anything will work.

Thanks for posting.

[Silverlining_m2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

VRSF says that it supports 600whp - and I have no idea what that means. Flow? Pressure? IAT reduction?

We know it isn't IAT reduction because you're not even approaching those levels and you're still overheating in ONE multiple gear pull. This intercooler simply isn't adequate for what your asking it to do, and it has almost zero headroom for higher ambient temps - a concern in Florida.

I see a lot of talk on feel good talking points and little in the way of facts. You guys are really going to tell him that a 5" core we know to be struggling on similar cars, is an acceptable option for someone who lives in one of the hottest regions of the entire country - because the bigger option is $40 more?

You said vrsf 5" is "barely enough for stage 1" and that is straight bs. Then showed a stage 2 6.5" at 79° with iat's at 90°. I get thats 11 degrees and mine operates about 20° above ambient. But that ONE PULL you keep harping on was the last of many, and I came to an immediate stop afterwards. I just showed you one operating at 20° over ambient with impeccable timing, temps dropping during the pull, and returning to where it was afterward. That is NORMALLY the case. I personally like to drive hard so I will likely upgrade to the race this summer.

Again I'm not saying the 5" is best, and I will also upgrade to a 6.5" race vrsf this summer. But you're treating it like its garbage without even knowing this person's driving habits, and purposely condescending every comment otherwise to your opinion.

And when I initially said that going bigger wasn't necessary unless you upgrade the turbo, I meant bigger than 6.5... as in the 7 inch varieties.

IAT's 20° above ambient are not unacceptable. Is that 11°? No. I'm simply saying in most cases either would suffice. And now I'm saying good day.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by f32spaceship

You said vrsf 5" is "barely enough for stage 1" and that is straight bs.

Then showed a stage 2 6.5" at 79° with iat's at 90°. I get thats 11 degrees and mine operates about 20° above ambient. But that ONE PULL you keep harping on was the last of many, and I came to an immediate stop afterwards. I just showed you one operating at 20° over ambient with impeccable timing, temps dropping during the pull, and returning to where it was afterward. That is NORMALLY the case. I personally like to drive hard so I will likely upgrade to the race this summer.

I'm not understanding what you're arguing here - a smaller intercooler isn't at efficient as a larger intercooler? Ok, I agree.

Originally Posted by f32spaceship

Again I'm not saying the 5" is best, and I will also upgrade to a 6.5" race vrsf this summer. But you're treating it like its garbage without even knowing this person's driving habits, and purposely condescending every comment otherwise to your opinion.

And when I initially said that going bigger wasn't necessary unless you upgrade the turbo, I meant bigger than 6.5... as in the 7 inch varieties.

IAT's 20° above ambient are not unacceptable. Is that 11°? No. I'm simply saying in most cases either would suffice. And now I'm saying good day.

[Munchi435i]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The car went from 82 degrees to 88 degrees in 4th.

You shifted to 5th, and despite letting off off the throttle, the temperature keeps increasing to 93 degrees, before coming down to 91 while you coast.

10 degrees on a single gear pull is a lot, but I guess that's acceptable. If OP plans on only doing one WOT pull at a time, I guess anything will work.

Thanks for posting.

You are a man on a mission clearly!! I wont clutter OP's thread any further. But a 10 degree increase with a upgraded turbo seems very acceptable. I have plenty of back to back logs with the same degree difference. So there is consistency with the EVO COMP 2.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Munchi435i

You are a man on a mission clearly!! I wont clutter OP's thread any further. But a 10 degree increase with a upgraded turbo seems very acceptable. I have plenty of back to back logs with the same degree difference. So there is consistency with the EVO COMP 2.

10 degrees in a single GEAR isn’t acceptable to me or most people, but whatever works for you.

[FastF30]

what I noticed with the 5" is once it get's heat soaked it's very inefficient....but still way better than stock...

[rjd_F30]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

VRSF says that it supports 600whp - and I have no idea what that means. Flow? Pressure? IAT reduction?

We know it isn't IAT reduction because you're not even approaching those levels and you're still overheating in ONE multiple gear pull. This intercooler simply isn't adequate for what your asking it to do, and it has almost zero headroom for higher ambient temps - a concern in Florida.

I see a lot of talk on feel good talking points and little in the way of facts. You guys are really going to tell him that a 5" core we know to be struggling on similar cars, is an acceptable option for someone who lives in one of the hottest regions of the entire country - because the bigger option is $40 more?

Errr... yes I'm going to tell him that. You said it yourself: acceptable. Incredible? No. Superlative? Nope. Maybe even just strong... perhaps not. But acceptable? Yes, it is acceptable.