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      02-24-2019, 10:31 PM   #1343
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post

Hydrogen would be the best bet for a green renewable, sustainable solution and most realistic but the powers that be have spoken and they tell us that EV is what we want.
You mean hydrogen fuel cell? You still need to obtain hydrogen since they don't usually exist in its pure form in nature. You would need to purify hydrogen through water which will require some overhead energy such as oil. At least for the foreseeable future, it all comes down to oil.
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      02-25-2019, 09:19 AM   #1344
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Meanwhile in Florida:
https://www.local10.com/news/florida...ium%3Dsharebar

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Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
The ultimate holy grail is nuclear fusion - practically limitless source of energy.
Hydrogen would be the best bet for a green renewable, sustainable solution and most realistic but the powers that be have spoken and they tell us that EV is what we want.
What's wrong with the EV?
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      02-25-2019, 12:14 PM   #1345
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The batteries themselves and mining for raw material along with the utility companies which provide the electricity. It isn't the most "green" option but it is what we are told we want when hydrogen was not fully explored.
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      02-25-2019, 12:31 PM   #1346
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What's wrong with the EV?
There is nothing wrong with EV. But you have to be aware that producing Lion batteries creating a lot of waste products and CO2. It's not a free lunch.
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      02-25-2019, 01:48 PM   #1347
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
The batteries themselves and mining for raw material along with the utility companies which provide the electricity. It isn't the most "green" option but it is what we are told we want when hydrogen was not fully explored.
Re: Utility companies

That all depends on the utility company. CA, for example, does not source a lot of it's power from coal like some other states. This just highlights how flexible the EV is. We can use solar, hydro, nuclear, coal, wind etc... it's not locked into one thing: oil, gas, diesel, hydrogen etc.

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Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
There is nothing wrong with EV. But you have to be aware that producing Lion batteries creating a lot of waste products and CO2. It's not a free lunch.
I don't think anyone can realistically say it's a free lunch, I don't personally think that it has to be a free lunch to be a better alternative than the ICE.

As a concept, however, it has a big advantage over the ICE and even the Hydrogen fuel cell. First off, hydrogen takes a lot of energy to make and transport. It's a one-per-instance use as in, it's used once for energy and must be replenished with more hydrogen. Oil has to refined and transported and also takes energy to make and distribute also on a once-per-use basis: the ICE burns it for energy and the gasoline must be replenished with only gasoline. On the other hand, batteries can be used multiple times over and over, so yes, it takes some resources to make the battery, but given enough cycles it ends up being more efficient. You don't need to replenish the materials in the battery to get more energy, you just need more energy, which I mentioned earlier is more flexible: You aren't locked into JUST hydrogen, JUST gasoline, or JUST coal sourced energy. The nature of the battery allows for multiple sources, which can be more "green" in some areas than others.


I'm all for a hydrogen car, I don't think we should stop research into it, but it doesn't invalidate the EV as a viable option either.

I realize this is a Tesla thread, but it seems more like an anti-EV thread when more anti-EV arguments are brought up than Tesla specific arguments.
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      02-25-2019, 02:29 PM   #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I don't think anyone can realistically say it's a free lunch, I don't personally think that it has to be a free lunch to be a better alternative than the ICE.

As a concept, however, it has a big advantage over the ICE and even the Hydrogen fuel cell. First off, hydrogen takes a lot of energy to make and transport. It's a one-per-instance use as in, it's used once for energy and must be replenished with more hydrogen. Oil has to refined and transported and also takes energy to make and distribute also on a once-per-use basis: the ICE burns it for energy and the gasoline must be replenished with only gasoline. On the other hand, batteries can be used multiple times over and over, so yes, it takes some resources to make the battery, but given enough cycles it ends up being more efficient. You don't need to replenish the materials in the battery to get more energy, you just need more energy, which I mentioned earlier is more flexible: You aren't locked into JUST hydrogen, JUST gasoline, or JUST coal sourced energy. The nature of the battery allows for multiple sources, which can be more "green" in some areas than others.


I'm all for a hydrogen car, I don't think we should stop research into it, but it doesn't invalidate the EV as a viable option either.

I realize this is a Tesla thread, but it seems more like an anti-EV thread when more anti-EV arguments are brought up than Tesla specific arguments.
As I said, there is nothing wrong with EV just as long as nobody is going to hold me at gun point forcing me to drive an EV.
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      02-25-2019, 03:03 PM   #1349
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the markets will. look at manual transmissions... almost a relic from yesteryear. nobody is forcing you to buy automatic but if there aren't any to purchase... then they dont have to. companies will produce what is sold until it is not being sold or demand shifts.

on a side note i like that we are over sixty pages into this topic and are able to discuss points and topics along with opinions without going off topic, unhinged or personal.
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      02-25-2019, 03:20 PM   #1350
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Quote:
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the markets will.
I actually don't think it's that's simple. We can't simply do a simple extrapolation as to the demand of EV. As EV is ramping up, it will face raw material constraints due to demand which will drive up the cost of batteries - just like oil. Currently there is only a small amount of EV vs. ICE cars, so you don't see it.

The market can kiss my a$$ :-).
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      02-25-2019, 04:21 PM   #1351
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As I said, there is nothing wrong with EV just as long as nobody is going to hold me at gun point forcing me to drive an EV.
I will probably be long dead and buried when they stop selling ICE cars or the old leftovers are no longer drive-able. Our children will care less than we do because let's face it, they already care less anyway.

Sad story:

I drop my son off at grade-school every morning. Sometimes I take the M3 CS and sometimes I take the i3. My son told me the other day that his classmates thought I had a cool car. The kid in me was a little proud until he said that they liked the i3, not the M3 CS. They liked that it was quiet and sounded like a "future car".

It was a mindfuk for sure.
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      02-25-2019, 06:07 PM   #1352
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Sad story:

I drop my son off at grade-school every morning. Sometimes I take the M3 CS and sometimes I take the i3. My son told me the other day that his classmates thought I had a cool car. The kid in me was a little proud until he said that they liked the i3, not the M3 CS. They liked that it was quiet and sounded like a "future car".

It was a mindfuk for sure.
I don't doubt that future generation will probably prefer EV over ICE cars. That is why I have argued that new car such as the Toyota Supra is becoming more and more irrelevant. It's not that I haven't seen the writings on the wall.
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      02-25-2019, 06:20 PM   #1353
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I suspect the future generation would prefer to stay at home, have a free paycheck and everything delivered.
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      02-25-2019, 06:23 PM   #1354
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I suspect the future generation would prefer to stay at home, have a free paycheck and everything delivered.
So do I if I can get away with it.
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      02-25-2019, 07:04 PM   #1355
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After-Hours down 4%... SEC after Musk again:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/25/tesl...ting-deal.html
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      02-25-2019, 07:13 PM   #1356
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After-Hours down 4%... SEC after Musk again:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/25/tesl...ting-deal.html
It's safe to say few will shed any tears for someone who has a $23B net worth. If he got cancer, well then maybe I'll pray for him.
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      02-27-2019, 05:49 PM   #1357
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https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...225-story.html
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      02-27-2019, 06:35 PM   #1358
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I'm tellin' ya, those pesky batteries will be the death of us all!
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      02-27-2019, 07:24 PM   #1359
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I am not going to crap on Elon a$$, but the Lion-batteries are very flammable if you're not careful but as long as you follow proper functional procedures, you should be fine. Overcharging usually will cause them to catch fire.
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      02-27-2019, 08:08 PM   #1360
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Tesla used to have an entire portion of their site dedicated to first responders and procedures for these vehicles. Not sure if it is still up there but they need to figure something out with this because the flare-ups may effect the availability and response time for more serious issues.
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      02-28-2019, 02:48 AM   #1361
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Tesla used to have an entire portion of their site dedicated to first responders and procedures for these vehicles. Not sure if it is still up there but they need to figure something out with this because the flare-ups may effect the availability and response time for more serious issues.
It's still there.

https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders

Thermal runaway risk is not limited to Teslas. I wonder if BMW has similar countermeasures for my i3.
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Last edited by jmg; 02-28-2019 at 11:35 AM..
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      03-01-2019, 09:00 PM   #1362
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      03-01-2019, 10:37 PM   #1363
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Every year as long as I can remember a lot of people have been predicting the demise and bankruptcy of Tesla. The short sellers have been getting burnt multiple times. Tesla has defied logic. But in the last year or so, there stocks have been trading in a defined range. You can't really short the stock but it's hard to make money by buying them either. The only way to make money in Tesla is that if you can time it perfectly either on the up side or down side.
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      03-02-2019, 06:51 PM   #1364
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I understand why someone would want a Tesla, but I'm not one of them. I have zero interest at this time in my life. It is inevitable though. In 10 years the ICE may very well be gone.

I recently went to an NHRA event. I don't know the first thing about the sport. What I love about the event is the insane noise and punch in the chest you get when 11,000HP ignites. Your vision goes blurry and you can't breath for a fraction of a second. Hell, it's hard to stand against the wall when they take off. At the most current event, there was a Chevy ECopo. If you haven't seen it, look it up. It ran the 1/4 in the 9s. It was however the biggest sensory let down ever. If this is the future of the sport, I will no longer attend. I suspect there will soon be an EClass. When they run I will just head for the pits.

I currently own a M2 and I'm looking at a M4CS in the future. I'm not interested in the M4CS because if it's 0-60 time, it's Nurembering lap time, or distance it can go on a tank of fuel. I'm looking at it for 4 reasons

1. Bouncing off the rev limiter
2. Banging through gears
3. Cold starts
4. The viseral sensation the lovely S55 provides

Tesla can't fulfill any one of those for me. The Model X can however play the silly celebration routine though when you win the 0-60 race, when it works. At our Christmas party, someone had a Model X and couldn't wait to show off the celebration mode. It crashed the car 5 times. I just laughed. I would have rather looked at someones Corolla.
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