[shawnsheridan]

Originally Posted by Tony Twoclicks

...Concerning the price, as a non-professional coding enthusiast I only code my own and my mum's car maybe once or twice a year. Spending 50-100 bucks for a license, even if it is for charity, is still a large amount for that. I also think that serves as a huge threshold for people wanting to start learning, thereby deminishing the coding community. Open source could be a solution to that..

Spending 50-100 bucks for a license" is a "huge threshold" for someone that can afford to own and operate a BMW?

[teaston]

Originally Posted by shawnsheridan

Spending 50-100 bucks for a license" is a "huge threshold" for someone that can afford to own and operate a BMW?

It’s not, but I think because it was free for so long it now seems hard for some people to start paying for it.

For me it was worth the $50 just to have my mirrors fold in when I lock the car, let alone the other stuff!

[shawnsheridan]

Originally Posted by teaston

It’s not, but I think because it was free for so long it now seems hard for some people to start paying for it.

For me it was worth the $50 just to have my mirrors fold in when I lock the car, let alone the other stuff!

...maybe so...as I wrote back in Post #15, for the first 5 years, before Launcher PREMIUM came along, we all paid $50 for a 12 month E-Sys token, year after year, and were happy to do it...so for us "old-timers", maybe paying for it is an easier pill to swallow.

[Tony Twoclicks]

Well, yes, actually it is. I have worked very very hard the last couple of years to finally buy my dreamcar. And as a hobby, I'd like to tweak and tune some settings occasionally, but that's about all I do with coding. For that kind of incidental usage I find 50-100 bucks quite a lot.

If you're just getting started, finding your way, interested in the possibilities but unsure of how it all works, then I can certainly imagine that spending that amount of money just to try it out, would be a huge threshold and will withhold people from even beginning.

Cheers, Tony

[teaston]

Originally Posted by shawnsheridan

...maybe so...as I wrote back in Post #15, for the first 5 years, before Launcher PREMIUM came along, we all paid $50 for a 12 month E-Sys token, year after year, and were happy to do it...so for us "old-timers", maybe paying for it is an easier pill to swallow.

I don't remember ever paying for a token, I thought you could just download them for free before they trimmed the cafd's and we then need launcher?

[shawnsheridan]

Originally Posted by teaston

I don't remember ever paying for a token, I thought you could just download them for free before they trimmed the cafd's and we then need launcher?

Au contraire mon frère...

The evolution was as follows:

1) E-Sys Patch & Token - 2 native .jar files patched (est-cm-xx.xx.xx.jar and psdz-core.jar) and a .EST Token file with 1-Year validity - Available for $50 USD to seller (most all bought from akiss)

2) Patchless Token Solution - Custom .jar file (tokenMaster-1.jar) and a .EST Token file with 1-Year Validity - Available from TokenMaster after making a $50 USD Donation

3) E-Sys Launcher PREMIUM - Token Solution with Integrated CAFD / FAFP Mapping and Cheat Codes with some restrictions - Available for Free from TokenMaster

4) E-Sys Launcher PRO - Token Solution with Integrated CAFD / FAFP Mapping and Cheat Codes without any restrictions and with added features - Available from TokenMaster after making a $50 USD Donation

5) Launcher PRO 3.x - Revamped / Streamlined version of E-Sys E-Sys Launcher PRO - Available from TokenMaster after making a $50 USD Donation

And if one has trouble wrapping their head around paying $50 for an .EST Token, they will be shocked to know that the first version of E-Sys leaked out (E-SYS_v.3.10.1 if I recall correctly) was sold for $50k USD (10-man group buy at $5k per head). Granted back then it was being purchased by those hoping to commercialize it for great profit and not hobbyists. Ironically a day later, one of the 10 posted it to Usenet (if anyone remembers or knows what that is ) and well, the rest is history as they say...

[teaston]

Originally Posted by shawnsheridan

Au contraire mon frère...

The evolution was as follows:

1) E-Sys Patch & Token - 2 native .jar files patched (est-cm-xx.xx.xx.jar and psdz-core.jar) and a .EST Token file with 1-Year validity - Available for $50 USD to seller (most all bought from akiss)

2) Patchless Token Solution - Custom .jar file (tokenMaster-1.jar) and a .EST Token file with 1-Year Validity - Available from TokenMaster after making a $50 USD Donation

3) E-Sys Launcher PREMIUM - Token Solution with Integrated CAFD / FAFP Mapping and Cheat Codes with some restrictions - Available for Free from TokenMaster

4) E-Sys Launcher PRO - Token Solution with Integrated CAFD / FAFP Mapping and Cheat Codes without any restrictions and with added features - Available from TokenMaster after making a $50 USD Donation

5) Launcher PRO 3.x - Revamped / Streamlined version of E-Sys E-Sys Launcher PRO - Available from TokenMaster after making a $50 USD Donation

And if one has trouble wrapping their head around paying $50 for an .EST Token, they will be shocked to know that the first version of E-Sys leaked out (E-SYS_v.3.10.1 if I recall correctly) was sold for $50k USD (10-man group buy at $5k per head). Granted back then it was being purchased by those hoping to commercialize it for great profit and not hobbyists. Ironically a day later, one of the 10 posted it to Usenet (if anyone remembers or knows what that is ) and well, the rest is history as they say...

Pretty sure I downloaded a token for free from somewhere though, I definitely never paid for it.

So, what are these “cheat codes”?

[Sasquartch]

I'm getting a bit confused with the licensing in general

Is esys free ?

Are the supporting psdzdata files public domain ?

It seems the issue is the generation of a token - is this effectively a way of using a licensed product (ie esys) in an unlicensed way ?

All the talk so far is just about the launcher rather than esys itself

Can someone clarify please ?

[shawnsheridan]

Originally Posted by teaston

Pretty sure I downloaded a token for free from somewhere though, I definitely never paid for it.

You may have. There was nothing preventing someone that bought one from sharing it with others.

Originally Posted by teaston

So, what are these “cheat codes”?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...05&postcount=1

[shawnsheridan]

Originally Posted by Sasquartch

I'm getting a bit confused with the licensing in general

Is esys free ?

Are the supporting psdzdata files public domain ?

It seems the issue is the generation of a token - is this effectively a way of using a licensed product (ie esys) in an unlicensed way ?

All the talk so far is just about the launcher rather than esys itself

Can someone clarify please ?

E-Sys is developed by ESG for private use by BMW. It is not supposed to be in Public Domain as it is.

PSdZdata is ripped from BMW ISTA/P software, and also is not suppose to be in Public Domain as it is.

.EST Token has nothing to do with licensing. .EST token is used by E-Sys as a means to authorize FDL Coding Changes being written to ECU.

[julienjj]

Originally Posted by Sasquartch

I'm getting a bit confused with the licensing in general

Is esys free ?

Are the supporting psdzdata files public domain ?

It seems the issue is the generation of a token - is this effectively a way of using a licensed product (ie esys) in an unlicensed way ?

All the talk so far is just about the launcher rather than esys itself

Can someone clarify please ?

E-Sys is a BMW AG engineering tool for internal use. Dealers don't even have direct access to it.

It's definitively not "Free" but with this tool being important for repairs, one could argue that with the various "right to repair bills" the information and feature of this software should be available to the car owners and mechanics we contract with for our repairs.

The PSDzdata is basically monthly patches that contain firmwares and configurations for all the computers in all BMWs that BMW Ag provide to anyone with the workshop software (ISTA/Rheingold), that even independants shops can get access to if they pay the 2K a year license. This data was simply extracted from the repository of the software.

From my understanding of e-sys, the token themselves allow for coding the car. They are a BMW attemps at preventing 3rd party from injecting data in the modules for security reasons (think public/private key safety)


There are other ways to code the modules, as I have an AutoHex II which can code pretty much any module and do operations the BMW software would not allow, such as changing the VIN# or making new keys.

Edit : looks like we have been explaining this at the same time LOL.

[Sasquartch]

So it seems we're all using pirated software or at least not complying with the licence.

I'm not sure if BMW make any attempts to stop people using their software but either way charging for a launcher that enables the (technically illegal) use of licenced software is perhaps something some people are not comfortable with.

I guess Carly and similar products are all fully legal in this respect as they don't use BMW code.

[shawnsheridan]

Originally Posted by Sasquartch

...I'm not sure if BMW make any attempts to stop people using their software but either way charging for a launcher that enables the (technically illegal) use of licenced software is perhaps something some people are not comfortable with.

I guess Carly and similar products are all fully legal in this respect as they don't use BMW code.

I have no idea where you are going with this...but I leave that with you.

As for TM, he is not charging for anything. His solution is free to anyone who makes a charitable donation to a legitimate charity. He can't be accused of profiting from BMW's protected works.

Any application, including BimmerCode and Carly, that is writing FDL Changes to an ECU, at a minimum is violating some aspect of BMW AG's copyrights and patents by using their cryptographic key.

[Sasquartch]

Interesting.
I'm not trying to "go anywhere" with this, just discussing the licencing implications.
As someone who works for a software developer the issue of piracy is of interest to me.
I guess if Carly and the like use BMW proprietary code and or keys, i wonder why they tolerate it
The fact that they do is of course good for us
I'm fairly sure being able to do what we take for granted is not possible with mercedes with freely available software

[teaston]

Originally Posted by Sasquartch

Interesting.
I'm not trying to "go anywhere" with this, just discussing the licencing implications.
As someone who works for a software developer the issue of piracy is of interest to me.
I guess if Carly and the like use BMW proprietary code and or keys, i wonder why they tolerate it
The fact that they do is of course good for us
I'm fairly sure being able to do what we take for granted is not possible with mercedes with freely available software

I think BMW probably cannot be bothered because carly and bimmercode are so small time. If they got big then no doubt BMW would be after them.

[Brobbo]

im still waiting for a reply from tokenmaster for a license.
emailed last month and had nothing back
is there any other ways of getting the license?

[shawnsheridan]

Originally Posted by Brobbo

im still waiting for a reply from tokenmaster for a license.
emailed last month and had nothing back
is there any other ways of getting the license?

PM me your email address that you send TM email from.

[Brobbo]

Originally Posted by shawnsheridan

PM me your email address that you send TM email from.

sent shawn
thanks

[MarkG_M5Comp]

For now I'm happy with BimmerCode, mainly for simplicity since I had loads of issues trying to get multiple computers to work with ESys.

I just don't understand the resistance to pay a few quid to unlock your car's features since most pay much more on a set of mats or key holder.

That said, looking back in my email, I paid Eli $70 for a 3 year 'license' back in 2014. The tokens became free not so long after that so I was ripped off!

[Kandyland]

Looking for a link to download esys -- or through PM thx --

[teaston]

Originally Posted by Kandyland

Looking for a link to download esys -- or through PM thx --

Tokenmaster includes all the download links when you purchase a token from him.

[Fixx]

Originally Posted by julienjj

All this prove we need an open source solution for the tokens.
For now these cars are fairly new, so no engine swap or hardcore mods or expensive dealer fixes alternatives have been done.

For the average joe a phone app is good enough (enable windows with remote etc).

But we will need a working e-sys in the future; If tokenmaster get hit by a bus crossing the street it's done; we take a 3-4 years setback.

As far as I understand, he don't want people to re-sell his software and rip-off people(which is good), but E-sys launcher was distributed in such a misterious/non-existant way that many just gave off and paid 20$ to get it on a DVD from ebay.

If he were to setup a Github so it can be downloaded easily it and have others look and improve the code it could :
1) Reduce the troubleshooting burden on him
2) Stop wasting his time replying to activation/license emails.
3)The BMW community would gain durable code that would be lasting for as long as e-sys will be used for the BMW products it works for (if we take on how long DIS/INPA was used at bmw.... e-sys will likely be around for 15 years easily)
4) If Tokenmaster gets bored of doing or has other thing come up in his life we don't end up with only pay to play solutions (various coding app or paid tokens as it used to be)

+1