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      11-07-2019, 11:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TURBO8 View Post
Actually, doing the math:

Regular work year is 2080 hours
+
Claimed 5,616 hours of overtime
=
Total work hours in 1 year: 7696
-
total hours in a year 8760
=
1064 hours of free time for the year
/365 days
This guy had ~3 hours free time a day

Maybe he was on duty at the fire house for those hours, including sleeping?
Assuming that firefighters work a straight work week is where the math may be wrong. Itís rotating 24 or 48 shifts - some portion of which could be down time if not out on a call or doing work at the fire house. Average work week is 56 hours and typically 10 days per month. Due to wildfires, some have worked up to 30 days on, with a weekend off and back on for another 30 days. 20 of those days would be considered overtime.

That said the math is off unless thereís contract details that push pay up even higher after a certain threshold.

Itís probably this dude - https://reason.com/2018/05/21/firefi...overtime-by-w/

Basically stays on shift all year long
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      11-07-2019, 11:54 PM   #24
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Dude probably never clocked out every other day.
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      11-08-2019, 01:34 AM   #25
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100% Fraud. He is not working 21 hours a day. Period.
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      11-08-2019, 01:42 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Assuming that firefighters work a straight work week is where the math may be wrong. Itís rotating 24 or 48 shifts - some portion of which could be down time if not out on a call or doing work at the fire house. Average work week is 56 hours and typically 10 days per month. Due to wildfires, some have worked up to 30 days on, with a weekend off and back on for another 30 days. 20 of those days would be considered overtime.

That said the math is off unless thereís contract details that push pay up even higher after a certain threshold.

Itís probably this dude - https://reason.com/2018/05/21/firefi...overtime-by-w/

Basically stays on shift all year long

Pfffft didn't even know they made $90k. If I had guessed I would of said maybe $50k.
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      11-08-2019, 04:10 AM   #27
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I'm calling fraud as well. I'm not familiar with labor code in California, but where I live you aren't allowed to work more than 24 days straight. If you max out, your employer has to give you 4 days off before you can return to work. Pretty sure a fire hall isn't going to contravene labor laws. Also, I'd question the wisdom of having a person responsible for the lives of others overworked to that extent. A lot of red flags here.
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      11-08-2019, 06:33 AM   #28
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I don't live in the state, so I have no say. If it is a "loophole" that he used to his advantage, they need to rectify it and move on as it was their fault for allowing it to be take advantage of to begin with. In my line of work, I have to manage the amount of OT that any of my employees get. You have some who just want to make their 40 hours and go home, but we have others who will do anything they can including creating more work to try and justify more OT.

These are the same people who budget their personal finances as that being fixed/permanent income, and when it gets cut out abruptly.....they lose the most and whine the loudest.

I'm of the thought that people in public service (Police, Fire, etc) should make more than what most of them currently do. I wish that came to attention more than the fact of the headline we see here.

When my wife taught school, she routinely put in a 10 hour day between class and clubs. Then when she got home, it was another 1-2 hours at least 3 days a week of grading and prepping for the next day. She had her Masters, was National Board Certified, and still made less than $50K a year.

But NC ranks as one of the lowest paying states for teachers. So you did have some who would take early retirement to get their pension (which wasn't a lot) and then go and teach in SC to earn more money.
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      11-08-2019, 07:37 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
So he sleeps less than three hours a day? Does he eat? Does he take showers? Does he shave? Does he get a haircut? Does he go to the bathroom? inifinty

I'm not even going to debate this because it's clearly fraud. Nobody on this planet is working 7k hours a year.
Maybe you're not understanding. They work in 24 hour shifts. That means they're in the firehouse and are able to eat, sleep, shit, shower, shave...all during their 24 hour shift, in the firehouse. Dude could've found a loop hole and basically moved into the firehouse and stayed clocked in the entire time.

I'm not debating right or wrong, just saying that I can see how the story is possible. What defencies within the department exist that made it possible, is a whole other debate.
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      11-08-2019, 07:47 AM   #30
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I agree it's likely someone taking advantage of the system. Any amount of fraud is not right, but I'd rather have it be a firefighter than some of the people I see "working" for the state/federal government robbing the tax payers.

I personally know of about 5 people who make $300k+ a year who should be fired because they do nothing, but the unions saved them, so now they just sit in a room working on "special projects" browsing the web. Many are way past retirement age but continue to work because obviously they have no reason to retire.

Not to mention those who have retired collecting six figure pensions, who then come back as contractors for the state making even more money doing the same job they had before.
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      11-08-2019, 09:14 AM   #31
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This kind of stuff has to be kept in check. Even if he did work 21 hours a day, there is no way he was even half as effective at doing his job, therefore putting his colleagues and the general populace at risk. Isn't this the same reason employers of big rig drivers limit them to a certain amount of hours driving per day? Complete contradiction in terms.

Complete irresponsibility.

Typical Californian 'gaming the system mindset'.

Never in my life have I seen so many arrogant, useless people as I do in this state. From public employees to private citizens, the attitude is unbelievable.

On my drive home, on a daily basis I see people running red lights 3-5 seconds after they turned red. I've lived in a lot of places, but never a state as shitty as CA.
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      11-08-2019, 09:50 AM   #32
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I've never required the help of a Fire Department but aren't they like an ambulance service, billing individuals for making a call? If so, much of the labor cost would be recovered by the city. I would be interested in how LA County calculates overtime. Is it x1.5 after 8 hours or 24 for firemen? Does overtime go to x2 for holidays and escalate to a higher rate at any point? The two links in this thread do not give that information and I think that it's important. My stepbrother is a Nashville Fire Fighter with over thirty years experience and he's always had a second job, perhaps he's simply in the wrong place.
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      11-08-2019, 09:53 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90335e36m3 View Post
This kind of stuff has to be kept in check. Even if he did work 21 hours a day, there is no way he was even half as effective at doing his job, therefore putting his colleagues and the general populace at risk. Isn't this the same reason employers of big rig drivers limit them to a certain amount of hours driving per day? Complete contradiction in terms.

Complete irresponsibility.

Typical Californian 'gaming the system mindset'.

Never in my life have I seen so many arrogant, useless people as I do in this state. From public employees to private citizens, the attitude is unbelievable.

On my drive home, on a daily basis I see people running red lights 3-5 seconds after they turned red. I've lived in a lot of places, but never a state as shitty as CA.
And the more oppressive, complex, and unfair the system, the more natural and accepted it becomes to game it. It's just human nature.

My impression of CA, from having spent several years there in the military, was that it was one big "Gimme! Gimme!" self-serving scam-fest. Not much sense of community anywhere. No sense of authentic altruism. People just wanted to make a bunch of money, by whatever means available.
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      11-08-2019, 10:02 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcphoto View Post
I've never required the help of a Fire Department but aren't they like an ambulance service, billing individuals for making a call? If so, much of the labor cost would be recovered by the city. I would be interested in how LA County calculates overtime. Is it x1.5 after 8 hours or 24 for firemen? Does overtime go to x2 for holidays and escalate to a higher rate at any point? The two links in this thread do not give that information and I think that it's important. My stepbrother is a Nashville Fire Fighter with over thirty years experience and he's always had a second job, perhaps he's simply in the wrong place.
Pay in CA for LEOs and firefighters is pretty good.

An LA County firefighter on OT for a single day can make $1,600 a day (or two days, i forgot, but pretty sure it's one) according to one source I can't disclose. I don't know how accurate that number is, but even if it's close, it's a lot.
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      11-08-2019, 01:14 PM   #35
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FD and LEO have contracts negotiated that would "violate" FLSA rules, but they are allowed to negotiate those contracts because of the nature of their work.

We had a sergeant here who took all teh OT he could ever get his hands on. He was always here, even filling shifts for dispatch. We put in a new ERP system, and guess who was the first person to cross into 6-figure territory and discover we had the wrong number of spaces on our Leave/Earnings statement?

There is a separate officer, who's plate on his new truck is "PD W OT" (Paid With OT)

Are you going to go arrest those "service resistance" individuals sleeping in from of the local bakery????
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      11-08-2019, 01:20 PM   #36
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Quote:
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FD and LEO have contracts negotiated that would "violate" FLSA rules, but they are allowed to negotiate those contracts because of the nature of their work.
What do the Mormons have to do with this?
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      11-08-2019, 01:22 PM   #37
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What do the Mormons have to do with this?
Authors? Contributing editors?

Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) is a U.S. law that is intended to protect workers against certain unfair pay practices or work regulations


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      11-08-2019, 01:41 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Authors? Contributing editors?

Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) is a U.S. law that is intended to protect workers against certain unfair pay practices or work regulations


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Oh! I was pretending to think that you were referring to the FLDS for the sake of joke centered around my lack of understanding.
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      11-08-2019, 03:55 PM   #39
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Oh! I was pretending to think that you were referring to the FLDS for the sake of joke centered around my lack of understanding.
Not too sure what to do about either of you guys..

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      11-08-2019, 04:52 PM   #40
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I can only provide my long stale perspective on this whole firefighter debate. I used to volunteer at a heavy rescue squad over a decade ago. At my station, the majority of the staffing was by volunteers. We had the career guys cover the normal working hour shifts while the volunteers were out working their normal jobs.

I picked being on Monday night crew. My shift starts at 6PM Monday evening and ends 6AM Tuesday morning. I was also required to work every third weekend alternating Saturday and Sunday shifts. Saturday shifts were 12 noon on Saturday till 8AM Sunday Morning. Sunday shifts were 8AM Sunday morning till 6PM Sunday night. We had to stay at the station the entire time. The station has a kitchen, bunk rooms, and a common area with sofas and TV. Depending on the staffing level, you might alternate between another crew in responding for calls. If the staffing level was low, you run every call for the apparatus you're assigned to. The firefighters were all assigned to the heavy rescue truck. I don't think we've had enough staffing ever to run the second heavy rescue truck. Those trucks were alternated to even out use if they were both working. My station was also the primary ALS (advanced life support) unit for our first due coverage. There were times when I was on duty where we were rocking and rolling the entire time to include during the night. I remember I had about 3 calls in the dead of night and barely slept 2 hours not all at once. It's also difficult to sleep even if you don't get called out. All of us are in the same bunk room together. So if the squad truck gets called out, the speakers in the bunk room turn on blaring the dispatch and all the lights come on including our custom in house tones specific to the squad truck or the EMS/medical side.

I give all that background because many of you may not be aware of how life is at one of these stations. We had one of our members get approved for live in status. He lived in a back section of the bunk room which had enough privacy where he was able to be separate from the rest of us on duty shift. His obligation was to do his duty shift along with jumping in to help out when other shifts were short handed.

But in my area, there are stations fully manned by career firefighters and EMS personnel 24/7/365. I'd imagine life there is very similar to what I experienced at my station.

If you're on duty, you're on duty the entire time. There's no slacking or breaks. I remember when my county had a huge dispute between the career guys and the volunteers over some legislation and the attempt to combine the chiefs of both sides into a single one. It got so ugly that I remember when I was on my Monday night duty shift. A call comes in at 5:58 on Tuesday morning. The career guys were already at the station but wouldn't take the call. They forced us to take it. By the time I got done with the call, it was 7AM.

I haven't read the article. So don't know the specifics of how this firefighter was logging his ours. But I thought I would provide some perspective from someone who did live the life for a few years.
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      11-08-2019, 05:25 PM   #41
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I used to volunteer at a heavy rescue squad over a decade ago.
Thank you from across the country
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      11-08-2019, 06:05 PM   #42
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Top 25 most dangerous jobs: Per USA Today

24. Firefighters. Fatal injuries in 2017: 8.9 per 100,000 workers. Total: 34 fatal injuries. Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents.

7. Driver/Sales Workers and Truck Drivers. Fatal injuries in 2017: 26.9 per 100,000 workers. Total: 987 fatal injuries, 77,470 nonfatal injuries. Most common fatal accidents: Transportation incidents.

Truck drivers are 3xs more likely to die than fire fighters, yes driving a big rig isn't the same as walking into a burning building they deserve compensation but that OT is sky high

https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gal...e-us/38833255/

Lol, I'm a roofer I have a higher hazard risk than firefighters, my insurance premium is the price of a 3 series every year...
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      11-08-2019, 06:53 PM   #43
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Hazards that firefighters/EMS workers experience:

In addition to the expected fire/smoke hazards with working a fire, the unknown about the construction of the home/building. The use of engineered I-beams in new home construction is a huge hazard for responding personnel. Those things can give way without warning when exposed to heat.

Hazmats in the home, business, and crashed commercial vehicles.

Attacks by random people because of the uniform. There was an incident quite a few years ago where a unit on scene was treating a GSW (gun shot wound) patient in SE DC. While stabilizing the patient for transport, the gun man went back to finish the job. He entered the vehicle and shot the patient and in the process one of the crew members of the unit.

Car wrecks. Idiots that don't pay attention to driving and just want to gawk. I was almost hit by one of these brain dead motorists while pulling a long board and KED out of the side compartment of my rig. In addition, working with cars with the numerous air bags is a constant hazard with the potential for those things going off at any given moment. Bumpers. Depending on the crash and deformation of the bumper, they've been known to snap back out releasing energy and severely injuring who ever is in its path.

Patients. Some patients have displayed and acted on hostility towards responding personnel. I was on a call where we picked up a homeless person. The guy gave his history as a IV drug user and is HIV positive. The medic on my crew was trying to establish a line on the patient and as you can expect it was difficult with the patient's history. The patient got irate with the medic poking around with the catheter needle and took a swing at the medic. We had to restrain the patient while he was bleeding out...remember his HIV status? And a loose sharp...again remember his HIV status? Another call I was on, the patient was under the influence of PCP. He blacked out and we had to wake him up. He got combative with us in the back of the ambulance enroute to the hospital. It took two of us in the cab to restrain him and tie his arms down with triangular bandages to the litter. He managed to break free from the triangular bandages at which time we had to restrain him and tie him down again.

Those are some of the things off the top of my head. Not sure how many jobs out there where you're exposed to all these diverse hazards. Just saying.
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      11-08-2019, 10:03 PM   #44
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i'm sure someway someone will get to the bottom of this whole shit show. and they should..
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