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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > N20, N26, B46, B48 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N20 22psi Peak boost.... Is it too much??
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      09-25-2018, 10:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by ilivas View Post
I’d like to point out that it’s not necessarily that torque kills the motor. Cylinder pressure, heat, and detonation kills motors. From what I’ve seen on dyno sheets of this car, torque is what the car makes more of. So in that essence, torque is killing it. The reason torque is killing it is because the heads, cam, turbo, intake manifold, or whatever simply cannot carry that torque into the higher rpms. There is a restriction in the motor somewhere. Ideally, you want to carry that torque to redline since as rpms increase up will increase if the torque curve stays flat. So on the n26, the most stress on the motor is where the torque peaks because it simply dies off in the upper rpms.

Notice my torque curve on my Vette. This is an old dyno sheet.

HP=(torque x rpms)/5252

Buddy you keep talking about your vette and its annoying, These are not vettes, torque kills this motor and shitty tunes way before any of that will do anything to our motor.
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      09-25-2018, 10:45 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by IssaF32 View Post
Buddy you keep talking about your vette and its annoying, These are not vettes, torque kills this motor and shitty tunes way before any of that will do anything to our motor.
The basic physics behind engines is typically generally applicable. Whether you gain knowledge of those physics (which are more or less what we're discussing here) by tuning a Corvette or an N2x is irrelevant.

That being said, he also kind of agreed with you: "So in that essence, torque is killing it." You saying torque kills motors is like saying fatness kills fat people. No, it's the fact that a human heart can't support 250lbs of extra weight. In the same way, yah, you could say torque kills these motors, but it's really the sudden onset of a lot of cylinder pressure at low rpms that kills the motor. This pressure subsequently generates torque, but the torque itself is not what's killing the motor.

In the same vein, you saying that a bigger turbo will make more boost is sorta true, but it's not really. On a log, you'll see more boost in the upper rpms, which can fool you into thinking it's making more boost, but that's only because the bigger turbo is remaining efficient where the stock one becomes inefficient.

ilivas also didn't flat out call anyone wrong, he just said he can't understand how a rod bolt could be damaged by a lot of low rpm torque, not that it doesn't happen.
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      09-25-2018, 10:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by rjdnyy224 View Post
The basic physics behind engines is typically generally applicable. Whether you gain knowledge of those physics (which are more or less what we're discussing here) by tuning a Corvette or an N2x is irrelevant.

That being said, he also kind of agreed with you: "So in that essence, torque is killing it." You saying torque kills motors is like saying fatness kills fat people. No, it's the fact that a human heart can't support 250lbs of extra weight. In the same way, yah, you could say torque kills these motors, but it's really the sudden onset of a lot of cylinder pressure at low rpms that kills the motor. This pressure subsequently generates torque, but the torque itself is not what's killing the motor.

In the same vein, you saying that a bigger turbo will make more boost is sorta true, but it's not really. On a log, you'll see more boost in the upper rpms, which can fool you into thinking it's making more boost, but that's only because the bigger turbo is remaining efficient where the stock one becomes inefficient.

ilivas also didn't flat out call anyone wrong, he just said he can't understand how a rod bolt could be damaged by a lot of low rpm torque, not that it doesn't happen.
Look, don't gotta get all technical your basically saying the thing that generates torque kills engines which is torque. yes engines are the same but every time I get on the n20 forums all I see is corvette
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      09-26-2018, 08:02 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by IssaF32 View Post
Look, don't gotta get all technical your basically saying the thing that generates torque kills engines which is torque. yes engines are the same but every time I get on the n20 forums all I see is corvette
Yes, but how far along would the medical community be if we just went along satisfied with saying that fatness kills fat people and never dug deeper to find out why? Sorry to use such a crude analogy but it works, and I think you get my point... if he just came on here to brag about his Corvette or something I'd get it, but relating his experience on that platform to this platform is often helpful, at least I think so.
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      09-26-2018, 10:02 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilivas View Post
The overboosting likely causes a lean condition and detonation. I wonder if itís a tuning issue. Has that happened a lot? Itís hard for me to wrap my head around instant torque breaking a rod bolt. I can see a lot of factors breaking rod bolts, but itís hard for me to see a torque curve doing it. NA motors have even more instant torque.

Itís not a huge platform, so really not many people have pushed them to their limits. Youíve been around here longer than I have so you would know better, but from what Iíve seen, only a couple people have pushed them so their may not be a ton of info on the motor. In the other platforms that Iíve dealt with, there are more bad tuners than good ones. Iím not yet sold on a lot of things till I can see a lot more tuners with a solid general consensus.
Heat + oil starvation on corners/braking + instant torque @ ~350lbs = broken rod bolt

That's pretty much the recipe for a blown track motor on quite a few before they started building them. Then everyone redid the con rods/bolts and custom oil sump pickups to make up for this issue.

As for the overboosting, it's all from JB4. Piggybacks cannot react fast enough to save this engine from failure once that occurs. Events were almost always the same: boost to 25psi+ and cylinder blew due to a ring failure. Not saying that it will always boost but due to the lean conditions that JB4 runs the car in plus that overboost... yeah.
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      09-26-2018, 10:05 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by rjdnyy224 View Post
Yes, but how far along would the medical community be if we just went along satisfied with saying that fatness kills fat people and never dug deeper to find out why? Sorry to use such a crude analogy but it works, and I think you get my point... if he just came on here to brag about his Corvette or something I'd get it, but relating his experience on that platform to this platform is often helpful, at least I think so.
I'll agree in saying that his perspective is insightful at times. I'll admit, we didn't get off on the right foot but it's okay to talk about other cars.
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      09-26-2018, 02:18 PM   #95
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While Iím new to this platform, I try to use things that I know apply to all cars. I have been bringing up my Vette because itís something that Iíve been heavily involved in right now since Iím in the middle of a build. But the concepts should apply.

I do concede that they are not the same car though and not EVERYTHING applies which is why I ask questions as well. I do like to remain skeptical mainly because the aftermarket support of this car is so limited and not many are going past FBO.

I do have a large car community here and have learned to respect all cars and I try to get a good understanding of the popular platforms especially.
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      09-26-2018, 02:24 PM   #96
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Great. I have a JB. Lol. What a buzz kill. Haha
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      09-26-2018, 04:51 PM   #97
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Great. I have a JB. Lol. What a buzz kill. Haha
Lol! I would configure the safety down to 24psi and cross your fingers.
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