[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by pierreye

FR graph doesn't really show which driver can play louder with more punch and lower distortion.

True. That's why speaker modeling software graphs not only FR but also phase, maximum power, maximum displacement limited SPL, group delay, cone excursion, impedance, and much more.
Those interested in learning more will find this to be an excellent resource.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum

[MrBigB]

Originally Posted by bgalakazam

Thank you for sharing your experience, good information. I am running the stock HiFi speakers with the MATCH-UP 7BMW amp and the stock tune from Audiotech-fischer. I tend to agree with Billfitz that the stock woofers are great when amped.

I don't use consumer grade Spotify like 99.9% of the people. Almost exclusively FLAC files and for some niche songs and mixes I use 320kbs MP3. If your source is crap, no matter what speakers you put in it will be crap in - crap out.

For the past 2 years I have been tempted to upgrade to the Earthquakes, but I can't justify a $250 replacement which will not really give me that much more quality. I already have a highend Atmos home theater system and a great Amp/DAC headphone setup so quality sound is really important to me.

Since you seem to be biased towards the stock woofers (which I find amazing), what ballpark % improvement would you say you had with the properly amped Audisons?

First of all, I'm happy to see people bringing different opinions and share the experience with each other, but I think you didn't get my point, I'm not saying there are day and night difference between OEM and Audison, I mean I get more quality bass instead more bass from the swap.
Lets back to OP's original question, he is asking experience of Audison S8-4
and he is planning to get customized Dynaudio front stage puls a real subwoofer which is a higher level than most plug N play speaker upgrade for BMW available in the market. But you guys keep telling the stock speakers actually works good with a properly amp, I get it and it's actually where I start my audio system upgrade. I'm sure it is a good start but OP looking for a completely different level of upgrade.
I don't want a debate with you guys but I just want to share my experience and learn from you guys.

[bgalakazam]

I would love a trunk sub, but with 2 kiddos I need all the trunk space. Done goofed there not getting a GT or wagon . Maybe I can figure out something with the "spare tire" storage compartment. We'll see. Good info regardless.

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by MrBigB

First of all, I'm happy to see people bringing different opinions and share the experience with each other, but I think you didn't get my point, I'm not saying there are day and night difference between OEM and Audison, I mean I get more quality bass instead more bass from the swap.
Lets back to OP's original question, he is asking experience of Audison S8-4
and he is planning to get customized Dynaudio front stage puls a real subwoofer which is a higher level than most plug N play speaker upgrade for BMW available in the market. But you guys keep telling the stock speakers actually works good with a properly amp, I get it and it's actually where I start my audio system upgrade. I'm sure it is a good start but OP looking for a completely different level of upgrade.
I don't want a debate with you guys but I just want to share my experience and learn from you guys.

Thanks MrBigB,

Nice to have some personal experience shared. My installer has tested the Audison S8-4's and feel they fit well and sound very good but I think they still would prefer Jehnerts if they could get them. I have researched the Earthquakes and while they seem to be a good option if you don't have a subwoofer, aren't much of an improvement as a woofer/mid-bass.

I found a driver that models very well and had been used in quite a few competition level builds but always in the door. I have not found an example where it has been installed under-seat in a BMW. The driver is being re-introduced and is supposed to be a little smaller. My installer has ordered a pair and will try and make them fit and test the results. If not, they found a pair of Jenherts they can use but I am really hoping this option will work out.

I'll know by the end of January and let you know. I had planned on waiting until my warranty expired but just completed my last "free" service at the dealer and moved it up a month.

[MrBigB]

I'm glad you tried it out already. When I planning my audio upgrade I had the same idea which is to modify any 3 way kit from Focal or Dynaudio to fit into BMW, because I have really good experience with Focal k2 3 way kit for my Audi A4, they seems like more sound focused, But for BMW you will have to put the 6.5 inch midbass into the under seat housing, but looks like the 6.5 inch midbass driver is designed to operate in the door panel not for under seat application. I could be wrong, so I'm very curious about your result lol.

[GeorgeR]

The 8" came in today. I think it is going work after some master craftsmanship but it should sound fantastic.

Not sure when it will be publicly announced, apologize for the mystery but not my place and this will not be an inexpensive solution and many will not be able to justify the cost and custom fitting.

Some more detail on my upgrade plan.

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1681701

[GeorgeR]

They are in and fit just fine with some modification. With just a couple hours of use they sound equal to Jehnerts. I'm hoping with a few more hours of use they will break in and sound even better.

[pierreye]

Just check out your install. Cool install and workmanship.

[eleven11]

Originally Posted by GeorgeR

https://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1681701

Looking good. Keep us updated.

I'm curious what garage storage you have (seen in the shop picture)? Those are sharp.

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by eleven11

Looking good. Keep us updated.

I'm curious what garage storage you have (seen in the shop picture)? Those are sharp.

I wish I had that storage set up. That is the shop that completed the installation.

Thanks.

[Fade_The_Public]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The Audison APBMW S8-4 is less capable than the stock under seat woofers. The only under seat woofer I've found that does beat OEM is the Earthquake that johnung referenced, and only when sufficiently powered. Since you don't care what the under seat woofers do below 80Hz the Earthquake wouldn't be an upgrade, as where it beats OEM is below 50Hz. The stock woofer beats the Audison above 80Hz.

I want to make sure I get this right...
Are you saying that the OEM speakers, when compared to Audison aftermarkets, are superior?

[Billfitz]

That's what Audison's own data says.

[Fade_The_Public]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

That's what Audison's own data says.

I happen to own the Audison underseat subs we're referring to. I'm going to go ahead and whole-heartedly disagree with your take here (allegedly Audison's take...). I installed only 1 sub and compared them to the OEM for reference for a full week, and the difference was simply amazing. The clarity you receive from the Audison is legit business.

I'm quite confident you'll rebut with some data or graphs or whatever, but to say that Audison, one of the premier sound companies in the space, is not superior to the OEM subs is laughable. Have you actually listened to these side by side or you just using data points?

Sorry if it's coming off as aggressive, but you're going to have to help me get where you're coming from. On no planet are the OEM's superior to the Audison. The OEM's aren't even superior to the BavSound Ghostsubs, in which, I had for years.

[Billfitz]

I'm a very successful professional loudspeaker designer. That's where I'm coming from. I won't bore you with data or graphs or whatever as you wouldn't understand them anyway.

[Fade_The_Public]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I'm a very successful professional loudspeaker designer. That's where I'm coming from. I won't bore you with data or graphs or whatever as you wouldn't understand them anyway.

Let's run with your logic here....The retailers that sell JL's Focals, Audison, etc are basically fools for not offering BMW OEM equipment because the data supports your argument.

You're either calling the licensed retailers suckers for offering a product that is inferior, the customers suckers for purchasing said inferior product, or the premier companies shams for promoting their product as superior despite its inferiority.

Can' tell a lie homie...I think you might be suffering from analysis paralysis. You can't look me in the eye and say Audison is inferior to an OEM underseat sub. If you feel this way, then I can't do anything for you. But for the people that rely on your opinion, they should be weary of any/all of your insight.

Have a nice day.

[Billfitz]

And what is your logic for assuming there's anything wrong with the BMW OEM speakers, which are out of Harmon, a far larger entity of any of those others? The only sources of that claim is the advertising of those who make and sell replacement speakers, and those who believe it. You should give this site a look see, it's right up your alley:
http://audiophile.rocks/index.html

For those interested in learning about how speakers work, without the advertising BS, this is a good starting point:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...building-bible

For those interesting in understanding the pervasiveness of BS in audio this is enlightening:

[pierreye]

Originally Posted by Fade_The_Public

Let's run with your logic here....The retailers that sell JL's Focals, Audison, etc are basically fools for not offering BMW OEM equipment because the data supports your argument.

You're either calling the licensed retailers suckers for offering a product that is inferior, the customers suckers for purchasing said inferior product, or the premier companies shams for promoting their product as superior despite its inferiority.

Can' tell a lie homie...I think you might be suffering from analysis paralysis. You can't look me in the eye and say Audison is inferior to an OEM underseat sub. If you feel this way, then I can't do anything for you. But for the people that rely on your opinion, they should be weary of any/all of your insight.

Have a nice day.

Those of us that have done the swap of aftermarket underseat mostly have positive experience on the upgrade. If you have ever compare the stock HIFI sub with aftermarket, you will know that HIFI sub lack mid bass punch. I'm not the guy that believe in marketing BS and believe in measurement and science. If you look at HIFI sub, it's rated 25W RMS, 50W peak vs most aftermarket which is rated 150W RMS, 300W peak. Most of us have upgraded the amp that exceed 50W. My conclusion, looking at parameters most aftermarket sub would be able to play louder and cleaner than stock HIFI sub when driven with higher than 50W power. I mostly will refrain myself from commenting on other subs that I never had experience and can only rely on others input. Anyone that are interested to upgrade your sound system, you just have to choose if you believe those that have experience in changing the underseat sub. The best is find someone nearby that had upgraded the system and listen.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by pierreye

If you have ever compare the stock HIFI sub with aftermarket, you will know that HIFI sub lack mid bass punch.

We've had this discussion before, and I agreed that some woofers have higher midbass sensitivity that stock. That higher midbass sensitivity comes at the expense of low frequency extension, you can't have it both ways. If you have a trunk mounted sub to handle the lows then going with a different woofer with higher midbass sensitivity makes sense, but only then.

My conclusion, looking at parameters most aftermarket sub would be able to play louder and cleaner than stock HIFI sub when driven with higher than 50W power.

Possibly. But that's not what their advertising says. They make unsubstantiated claims that in some cases border on magical. One, I don't recall which, even makes the outrageous statement that it has 10dB higher sensitivity than stock. That's the equivalent of a tune claiming it can give you 2400 HP from an N20. Of course you're very well aware of my endorsement of the Earthquake SWS when driven with 150w or more, so it's not like I'm saying you can't do better than stock, just that it takes more than just a speaker swap. As for relying on listening alone for comparative purposes, if you think something's going to sound better, it will. You wouldn't go to the expense and effort of making a change if you didn't think it was going to sound better, so what you end up with is textbook confirmation bias. More on that subject: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/0...o-product.html

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

We've had this discussion before, and I agreed that some woofers have higher midbass sensitivity that stock. That higher midbass sensitivity comes at the expense of low frequency extension, you can't have it both ways. If you have a trunk mounted sub to handle the lows then going with a different woofer with higher midbass sensitivity makes sense, but only then.

Possibly. But that's not what their advertising says. They make unsubstantiated claims that in some cases border on magical. One, I don't recall which, even makes the outrageous statement that it has 10dB higher sensitivity than stock. That's the equivalent of a tune claiming it can give you 2400 HP from an N20. Of course you're very well aware of my endorsement of the Earthquake SWS when driven with 150w or more, so it's not like I'm saying you can't do better than stock, just that it takes more than just a speaker swap. As for relying on listening alone for comparative purposes, if you think something's going to sound better, it will. You wouldn't go to the expense and effort of making a change if you didn't think it was going to sound better, so what you end up with is textbook confirmation bias. More on that subject: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/0...o-product.html

I followed Bill's logic and recommendations and did my own H/K audio upgrade project. The premise was that the H/K speakers are excellent. The weak point is the underseat subs. The result was amazing. My family and friends thought that I had replaced the entire audio system.

Components consisted of:
1) two Earthquake SWS-8Xi (2-ohm) with Earthquake spacer rings
2) an AudioControl AWS-2.300 combination LOC/Amplifier with 2x150 watts RMS/channel into 2-ohms. Haven't found any other units that meet criteria for small size, 40volt speaker level inputs needed to interface with H/K amplifier and amplifier specs previously stated.
3) Technicpnp custom harness
4) New 14-gauge speaker wire, in-line power fuse and assorted wire and connectors.

Component cost totaled ~$650-$700. Labor was my own.

There is absolutely no reason to change out any of the other H/K speakers. They sound great. It was the bass that was lacking. The Earthquake subs with their own amplifier powering them is what the system needed.

I'm not saying this will satisfy a guy who wants to mount two 12-inch subs in the trunk and rumble all the other cars at a red light.

One of my before/after test CDs is from U2, chosen because of the driving bass in their sound. Just amazing after the upgrade. I listen to music and bass players with a lot of nuance in their sound like Chris Squire, Mike Rutherford, etc and it finally comes out like I would expect to hear in my upgraded H/K car system.

Hope this helps!

[pierreye]

Originally Posted by johnung

I followed Bill's logic and recommendations and did my own H/K audio upgrade project. The premise was that the H/K speakers are excellent. The weak point is the underseat subs. The result was amazing. My family and friends thought that I had replaced the entire audio system.

Components consisted of:
1) two Earthquake SWS-8Xi (2-ohm) with Earthquake spacer rings
2) an AudioControl AWS-2.300 combination LOC/Amplifier with 2x150 watts RMS/channel into 2-ohms. Haven't found any other units that meet criteria for small size, 40volt speaker level inputs needed to interface with H/K amplifier and amplifier specs previously stated.
3) Technicpnp custom harness
4) New 14-gauge speaker wire, in-line power fuse and assorted wire and connectors.

Component cost totaled ~$650-$700. Labor was my own.

There is absolutely no reason to change out any of the other H/K speakers. They sound great. It was the bass that was lacking. The Earthquake subs with their own amplifier powering them is what the system needed.

I'm not saying this will satisfy a guy who wants to mount two 12-inch subs in the trunk and rumble all the other cars at a red light.

One of my before/after test CDs is from U2, chosen because of the driving bass in their sound. Just amazing after the upgrade. I listen to music and bass players with a lot of nuance in their sound like Chris Squire, Mike Rutherford, etc and it finally comes out like I would expect to hear in my upgraded H/K car system.

Hope this helps!

I have both HK speakers and Hifi speakers. I would say HK speakers limitation is the crossover plus the aluminium dome sound a bit ear piercing to my taste. But I wouldn't put HK speakers in the same league as better build speakers such as Scan Speak that I had try out. As for Hifi, that speakers will breakup under high SPL. Not to say anything wrong with Hifi speakers with stock amp, but once you swap out to higher output amp, Hifi speakers would become the weak link.

[J555]

Originally Posted by johnung

There is absolutely no reason to change out any of the other H/K speakers. They sound great. It was the bass that was lacking. The Earthquake subs with their own amplifier powering them is what the system needed.

I find this interesting, as I consider HK speakers in my car as possibly the worst out of all "premium" car audio speakers I can remember. Sure, evaluation of the sound quality is always subjective and BMW made that even more complicated by equipping the same audio option within single car model with different quality speakers... To say, I have listened to two HK-equipped F33's side-by-side and - with exactly same EQ - they sounded very different. I guess you are the more lucky within the HK camp

Back to my case, I always thought the HK tweeters are actually quite good, the underseat woofers are poor and the worst component are the mids. As I have upgraded my speakers in the opposite way compared to yours and listened to music after upgrading each single speaker, I can share my experience.

What I did was incremental replacement of all the speakers in my F31 LCI for the Bowers&Wilkins speakers (the high-end audio option in G11/G30/etc.).

As many others before, I was shocked of unbelievably poor manufacturing quality and materials of the HK mids. This is unacceptable and nobody can expect quality sound from these mids. However, the underseat woofers did not look that bad and the tweeters appeared just fine; also the only one components that weight just a bit less than their B&W relative.

What I found is the HK mids are even worse than I thought. While the improvement in overall sound quality is amazing, I was shocked that B&W are capable to reproduce much wider frequency range and the lower range is so much stronger they increased the mid-bass of the entire car to another level. To my suprise, I was wrong considering the HK tweeters are decent, as they sound terrible in comparison to upgraded ones... After all, I actually consider the underseat woofers to be the least crappy component of the HK system and while they lack the clarity and dynamics, they are at least not that distorted, limited in frequencies and muddy sounding as the tweeters and especially the mids.

Based on my findings, I can only suggest to carefully consider the upgrade options for anybody not looking just after more bass. The sound is indeed matter of personal taste, but I can imagine replacing the mid-bass woofers with the bass only coming from the Earthquakes can disappoint many; especially knowing how awful are the mid-bass capabilities of HK door speakers. As I am in doubt there are any 4" mids strong enough to cover the missing mid-bass freqs alone, this might be an issue for some after having the Earthquakes already in place.

[Encanto]

Originally Posted by J555

As I am in doubt there are any 4" mids strong enough to cover the missing mid-bass freqs alone, this might be an issue for some after having the Earthquakes already in place.

Morel Hybrid 402.