[F30 Steve]

Originally Posted by Rukka

What really annoys me with the whole campaign is the corporate buffoons being wheeled out to say how damaging it will be if we leave.

The truth is, no one really knows what will happen in terms of trade and if it will cost us more or less to sell/buy our goods. It Cameron had the balls to come out and say that, we would at least have a shred of respect for him. But instead, we get these half assed statements telling us that the value of our houses will plummet; the cost of living will rise; our pensions will be worth less; taxes will go up etc etc etc.

Reality - I would much rather pay a bit more tax if I knew the money was being used to the benefit of THIS country and not everyone else across Europe.

Turkey - don't get me started on that one! Whoever even thought that Turkey should be able to join the EU should be f*cking hung.

Immigration/Asylum seekers - whilst I see the plight of many and to be honest, why wouldn't you want to leave Syria and live in a country where you don't get shot at as soon as you walk down the street (ok, lets leave Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow out of this...) but in all seriousness, we are a small island and we simply cannot cope anymore!

It has been said that our National Health Service relies on Europeans; Doctors, Surgeons, etc. That's great - if you have a trade that the UK needs and you contribute to society - then "welcome".

If you are coming to our country to get free accommodation, handouts, free healthcare (all whilst working at the local car wash for cash in hand wages and paying no tax or NI) then frankly no - you can bugger off!

We can't build houses fast enough, the NHS is absolutely saturated beyond comprehension, your kids can't get into the local school come September because it's full......

What really boils my p1ss is how hundreds of thousands of men and women fought for our country in two World Wars to keep us safe; how many proud young men actually lied about their age so they could sign up to protect a country they loved and were proud of and now our idiotic politicians open the doors to one and all. I'll bet each and every one of those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives are turning in their graves!

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to end this bureaucratic madness and; for better or for worse; take back control of OUR COUNTRY.

Your kids and grand kids will thank you for it.

Rant over - I'm out


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https://www.brexitthemovie.com/






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Could'nt agree more!!! Well said that man!!

[Grant_7]

A guy at my work made an interesting point:

Ignoring the UK's predicament and starting from a blank sheet of paper, would you want to join the EU as it currently stands?

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Tom Tallon

Oddschecker odds with bookies are remain 1/7. Its a foregone conclusion and anyone who says otherwise is pissing in the wind.

My guess is the split will be 63% remain and 37% out.

For christs sake lets get it over and back to making the country work again!

The problem is, the odds are mainly based on polls with people being canvased in streets etc.

Pretty much every person that wants out will vote.

The same cannot be said for those that wish to remain.

People are invariably lazy and polls suck, a couple of the girls I know where asked what they would be voting... They are Lithuanian and Czech, however the pollster Doris still recorded their answers.

We were chatting in pub the other night, we reckon, if it's dry on the 23 June we will remain, if it's raining we will leave, it is likely that crap a situation.

A high proportion of young people say they wish to remain, however historically they never vote, this was said to be one of reasons last election was utter pants from polls point of view.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Well its getting closer to decision day, when 'everyone' decides if we are in or out.

The Hokey Cokey vote.

Has anyone had any eureka moments over the in / out debate?

It is a bit of a complete buggers muddle on how it is being handled.

This has not been helped by Labour not allowing free debate among its MP's, whereas I imagine a vast majority of its members likely want out.

Then there is the SNP.... enough said.

So it has been pretty much left to Conservatives, UKIP and Lib Dems allowed to argue for the out vote.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referend...ut-will-be-key

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e7b2d4d4-d...#axzz49qrSIHm0

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/09668b3e-2...#axzz49qrSIHm0


My main thing is immigration from the EU and lack of control we have.

One of the key things they mention are the numbers of Brits LIVING in the EU, they never mention those working, which I imagine will be very few in comparison to numbers of EU working here.

I was out the other night with some Students, EU was brought up and one lad argued about being able to work in the EU, this same lad could not speak French, German or Spanish, never mind anything else.

Whereas people coming here on the whole can speak reasonable to very good English.

Try working in a café in France / Germany and not being able to speak local language... will be very few chances of getting a job.

So I am undecided still and annoyed over lack of clarity or discussion from Labour (clarity by saying no is not really helpful lol).

I agree entirely with you, this line about Brits abroad and we can work there as well is a nonsense, they only have to speak English it's the world's lingua franca so we are at a disadvantage right from the get go.

Also most of the Brits aboard are retired, I wouldn't mind if a load of German ex BMW/VAG/Siemens workers wanted to come over here with their fat pensions to spend, but instead we get Romanian pot washers living by the dozen in over crowed terrace houses.

We want people, but the right people, it makes me laugh I can't just rock up to the USA or Australia or where ever but start to say that we should be choosey like those countries quite rightly are and some people say you're xenophobic.

I am still undecided though, but after watching QT this week I'm not sure I can vote for something that annoying woman Caroline Lucas believes in.

I also believe that if we vote to leave that it will be the beginning of the end for the EU in its current state, we're not the only country raising questions on the project as it currently stands, look at the rise of right wing nationalist parties in France/Austria etc....

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Grant_7

A guy at my work made an interesting point:

Ignoring the UK's predicament and starting from a blank sheet of paper, would you want to join the EU as it currently stands?

I don't think we'd vote to join the EU if we weren't in it already (I certainly wouldn't!) but in that scenario we'd have trade agreements in place with other countries and be established and self-sufficient outside the EU. Therefore, people campaigning for us to join would have to convince us that life would be better if we did and I think their chances of doing that would be the square root of bugger all given the state of the Eurozone and the way it's run.

Problem, though, is we are already in the EU and for me the concern is the potential effect on the economy should we leave. I think a short-term adverse impact would almost be a given due to the uncertainty an exit vote would create but would that impact be severe or mild and how long would it last? Personally I'd happily live with some mild economic pain for a couple of years to be out of the EU but if it's severe and likely to last five years or more then perhaps not. Therefore, I'm still undecided at the moment; heart is definitely saying out but head is saying in (just).

Slight aside but I saw part of a TV programme last week where one young voter was actually using the example of reduced data roaming costs when on holiday as a justification for staying in the EU. If people are making their decisions based on "important" issues like that I despair for our future whether we're inside or outside the EU....

[Wills2]

When we talk about trade agreements, lets all remember that we do not have a trade agreement with China or the US, you don't need a trade agreement to do billions in trade.

Our goods and services are sold all over the world with or without trade agreements as we import goods from all over the world with and without trade agreements.

[Ss66]

More importantly all how will this affect any discount on my next BMW next year .lol ��

[Gixerste]

Originally Posted by Rukka

What really annoys me with the whole campaign is the corporate buffoons being wheeled out to say how damaging it will be if we leave.

The truth is, no one really knows what will happen in terms of trade and if it will cost us more or less to sell/buy our goods. It Cameron had the balls to come out and say that, we would at least have a shred of respect for him. But instead, we get these half assed statements telling us that the value of our houses will plummet; the cost of living will rise; our pensions will be worth less; taxes will go up etc etc etc.

Reality - I would much rather pay a bit more tax if I knew the money was being used to the benefit of THIS country and not everyone else across Europe.

Turkey - don't get me started on that one! Whoever even thought that Turkey should be able to join the EU should be f*cking hung.

Immigration/Asylum seekers - whilst I see the plight of many and to be honest, why wouldn't you want to leave Syria and live in a country where you don't get shot at as soon as you walk down the street (ok, lets leave Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow out of this...) but in all seriousness, we are a small island and we simply cannot cope anymore!

It has been said that our National Health Service relies on Europeans; Doctors, Surgeons, etc. That's great - if you have a trade that the UK needs and you contribute to society - then "welcome".

If you are coming to our country to get free accommodation, handouts, free healthcare (all whilst working at the local car wash for cash in hand wages and paying no tax or NI) then frankly no - you can bugger off!

We can't build houses fast enough, the NHS is absolutely saturated beyond comprehension, your kids can't get into the local school come September because it's full......

What really boils my p1ss is how hundreds of thousands of men and women fought for our country in two World Wars to keep us safe; how many proud young men actually lied about their age so they could sign up to protect a country they loved and were proud of and now our idiotic politicians open the doors to one and all. I'll bet each and every one of those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives are turning in their graves!

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to end this bureaucratic madness and; for better or for worse; take back control of OUR COUNTRY.

Your kids and grand kids will thank you for it.

Rant over - I'm out


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https://www.brexitthemovie.com/






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+ 1

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Wills2

When we talk about trade agreements, lets all remember that we do not have a trade agreement with China or the US, you don't need a trade agreement to do billions in trade.

Our goods and services are sold all over the world with or without trade agreements as we import goods from all over the world with and without trade agreements.

True but I still think leaving the EU would cause significant uncertainty which would in turn impact things like exchange rates and interest rates. In the case of the pound it would probably weaken significantly which would help exports but make imports more expensive (and increase things like fuel costs as oil's priced in dollars). The European single market is also a large trade area for the UK (as of course is the UK for our EU partners!) and I could see there being some short-term uncertainty around how those arrangements would work going forward in the event of a vote to leave.

To be fair I don't think any of this is insurmountable in the medium or long-term, the question in my mind is how bad it might be in the short-term and how long that short-term would last!

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by JNW1

True but I still think leaving the EU would cause significant uncertainty which would in turn impact things like exchange rates and interest rates. In the case of the pound it would probably weaken significantly which would help exports but make imports more expensive (and increase things like fuel costs as oil's priced in dollars). The European single market is also a large trade area for the UK (as of course is the UK for our EU partners!) and I could see there being some short-term uncertainty around how those arrangements would work going forward in the event of a vote to leave.

To be fair I don't think any of this is insurmountable in the medium or long-term, the question in my mind is how bad it might be in the short-term and how long that short-term would last!

To be honest if there is one thing our economy needs it's a bit of inflation, we are in a dead calm limping along at the moment with not enough money chasing too many goods.

Deflation is our biggest worry and a very dangerous cycle to get into.

I also think the uncertainty arguments are a bit over the top in terms of actual real world goods trade, but I'm aware that the hedge funds and the George Soros of the world will pounce on the situation to make a few quid however it could be the Euro that will be on the receiving end of it.

[Tengocity]

I do see some potential benefits to voting out but I'm concerned that many seem to think it's going to be some sort of cure to all our problems. The fact is there are many many problems that our government can't seem to solve and they're nothing to do with The EU-health service, energy security, education, trade deficit, housing costs... The list is endless. For every immigrant here on the scrounge there are 10 here working there socks off doing all the jobs the lazy Brits are too workshy to do.

And besides, if we try to copy the Norwegian or Swiss model of trade we have to agree to free movement of people, yet have no control.

However, I could go with all that if I believed that someone had a coherent positive vision of what a post Brexit UK would look like, perhaps admitting that the first decade may be tough but that in time we can create a truly Great Britain again, but it all de-generates in to lame debating over whether we will be a few grand up or down in the next few years.

So like the Scottish independence referendum it turns it that we care about is the short term impact on our pocket... Any risk to that and you can forget the rest. So there is no chance we will vote to leave.

[Dave_3]

As someone who lives in a country whose relationship with the EU would be similar to what the Brexit supporters dream of (Switzerland for the last 20 years), I can say that being out of the EU does not in any shape or form offer all the touted solutions to the perceived loss of sovereignty or decision making. It isn't some sort of Shangri-La, free from the EU.

Much like the argument for Scottish independence, a UK out of the EU does not actually offer much change and certainly not all the glowing positives touted. The same problems will still exist outside your front door but now with added complexity (even if the transition went magically smoothly). Anyone exporting will still adopt and be beholden to EU standards. Probably easier for the UK to adopt internally even if was out of the EU.

Switzerland is still subject to almost all the EU rules and regulations (including migration) without any real say in them at all. The Swiss have railed against the EU over migration, but on the other hand they also do very well out of the joint EU co-operations (I've seen it personally in Universities and Nuclear research - and these aren't just monetary benefits). So they do conform to most all of the EU regulations without being in the EU - and with no real influence over them. Adapting more and more of the EU regulations I have seen the benefits for me in Switzerland - closer standardisation in products and services, much easier to travel and get jobs here than before. But, apart from some politicised defiance from the Govt., the Swiss can't pick and choose.

Being out doesn't actually magically solve everything - just adds more levels of complexity to any interaction. Better to stay in and actually use it, improve it, influence it.

Edit : wrote this before Terry posted, but seem to think similarly.

D.

[planemad]

My wife and I voted this evening and will post my ballot tomorrow.

[dangerous_al]

I am firmly in the out camp because whilst I believed in the original concept of a common market for trade and commerce, it has gone way beyond that and in my opinion too far. They appear totally committed to making the whole of Europe a federal state so whilst individual countries will have some say in how they are run and some laws (as the individual states do in the USA), the actual government will come from the EU. Personally I do not want that much power devolved to Europe. There are some good points to being in the EU, but I believe these are outweighed by the bad points, but as this is a national referendum, everyone can make up their own mind and in the end, the majority decision will win the day. I think the EU have gone too far in encomapssing the poorer Eastern European countries. These countries have little or nothing of value to bring to the party, they are ex Soviet block countries that have been starved of investment for decades and are just a massive drain on the EU. Why they are so hell bent on bringing them into the fold I have no idea, but one of the countries waiting in the wings is Albania, why on earth would we want to bring such a country into the EU? Poland is the single biggest recipient of EU aid, (12 billion in 2013 alone), the reason being to bring it up to Western European standards. No doubt the rest of the eastern European countries will be getting similar levels of investment, and Britain will be funding all this at the same time we are forced to allow unlimited immigration from all these countries, providing benefits, jobs, housing, schooling and health care to thousands of unsklled workers who add very little to our economy

There has been a lot of opinions offered by global leaders stating it is in Britains best interest to remain, but I have my own ideas as to why everyone is so keen for us to remain, and I don't believe it has anything to do with Britains best interests. Germany is the largest net contributor with Britain the second largest. France is third (almost 2 billion behind Britain), then comes Italy and the Netherlands with contributions significantly less than half of the UK's. My view is that the EU needs Britains contribution, because without it, it would seriously be in danger of going bust and along with it the collapse of the Euro. I believe that senior leaders are aware of this and that is why they are so keen for Britain to remain, it is nothing to do with what is best for us, but what is best for Europe and the rest of the world. Personally I would be quite happy to see it all degenerate into one huge steaming pile and good luck to them. The majority of EU member states are already close to being bankrupt and it is only the handouts from the EU (a significant proportion of which comes from the UK) that is keeping them afloat.

[Wills2]

I was discussing this over weekend, I'm still in the undecided camp and yes everyone from Obama to the IMF and Carney wants us to stay or at least warns of the danger of leaving.

I don't want to give the SNP another excuse for a referendum nor do I want issues in NI over the border with ROI either.

But it appears that the rest of the EU couldn't give a fig whether we stayed or went, why are they so silent on this issue? I hear nothing in the media I see or read from other European countries urging us to stay?

[....,,,,..,,..]

In regards to imigration - low skilled types.

Anyone see groups of the following:
French
Germans
Austrians
Italians
Danes
Dutch
Sweden
?

Have we experienced a large influx of people for those countries?

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by Wills2

I was discussing this over weekend, I'm still in the undecided camp and yes everyone from Obama to the IMF and Carney wants us to stay or at least warns of the danger of leaving.

I don't want to give the SNP another excuse for a referendum nor do I want issues in NI over the border with ROI either.

But it appears that the rest of the EU couldn't give a fig whether we stayed or went, why are they so silent on this issue? I hear nothing in the media I see or read from other European countries urging us to stay?

I think Europe very much wants us to stay, especially the Germans. However I think they are very wary of being accused by the Leavers of sticking their noses in and interfering with our domestic politics and trying to tell us what to do.

[Carjack]

If we vote for 'in,' in the years to come, when we are just a state within the EU with no direct power and under the control of the richest state i.e. Germany.
People will say, why did they vote 'in'.
For hundreds of years Britain have fought to be independent country, free of Europe.
Yet, they 'gave in' to rhetoric from people who should know better.
Yes, the economy could well be grim for a few years and there will be a lot of nashing of teeth in the EU but I have the confidence that a 'free' Britain has got the power within to do well as it always has!

Vote 'out' for an independent Great Britain!

[bodtwo]

As a kid i remember being ferried around europe (army brat) and numerous border crossings, customs etc. Didn't like that.

I remember, mark's, francs, lira, schillings, even pound notes, not so keen on that (pounds i'm happy with of course.)

Remember numerous eastern european spats turning into genocide, did not like that at all.

I remember french farmers kicking off and getting anything they wanted from the eu, didn't like that then and don't like it now. Much as i don't like our tube people etc holding us to ransom.

Really didn't like the french when falklands kicked off and i had family on ships dodging twatty etards.

We still have lot's of problems in europe as well as localised kick off's (not mentioning terrorist shits) but I can only see a broken up europe becoming more unstable given the pressures individual nations will be under.

I now have two kids, 21 and 15, i really want a stable europe for them to grow up in, i don't want all the shit of europe over the last century or so to have any part in their lives other than taking the piss out of me when i mention when i was a lad and 'duck and cover'.

However, the european experiment has to change and to somehow maintain a degree of sovereignty unless it becomes a mock of the eurovision song contests where small like minded blocks can carry through ridiculous laws at odds with other nations core principals.

For me, i'd like to see some sort of G7, G30 setup, or premier league & championship of europe. And same as in football, the more money you have, the bigger the say you have.

I have no idea how it would work, i'm basically a mechanical engineer, so if i can't take a persuader and gaffer tape to it, i can't fix it.

My view, my opinions, and i've yet to see any more valid arguments from any camp, political or otherwise.

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by Rukka

What really boils my p1ss is how hundreds of thousands of men and women fought for our country in two World Wars to keep us safe; how many proud young men actually lied about their age so they could sign up to protect a country they loved and were proud of and now our idiotic politicians open the doors to one and all. I'll bet each and every one of those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives are turning in their graves!




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https://www.brexitthemovie.com/






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100th anniversary of the battle of Jutland today.. 5000+ poor souls gave up their live for the land we still call Great Britain.

[rocketretro]

Not a UKIP supporter myself, but he does sum it up rather well and may strike a cord for BREXIT supporters. Interestingly his prediction as to Turkey's intentions came about this week.

Farage sums it up

[Mark1966]

Unfortunately there are too many 'frightened' people in this country for us to 'Vote Out'. It will take a miracle on the 23rd to get an 'Out' vote I am afraid.

I will certainly be voting 'Out' as I really believe it is worth the 'possible' monetary cost to me that it 'may' incur over the next few years.

I really don't want to sit down with my Grandchildren in 15 to 20 years time and try to explain to them why I voted 'In' when we are totally governed by a bunch of Boneheads on the Continent, and trust me it will happen.

I had relatives as I expect many of you did too that lost their lives so we can be 'Independent' and I am not so sure they would like us to effectively be beholding to the Germans

I think it is going to be a very sad day on the 23rd and I for one plan to spend very little time in this country in the future if the British public take the cowards route and stay in.