[gippy]

i'm keen to try out one of the various tunes now available.
i'm not looking to push the limits, and would happily live with a conservative tune that adds another 50-70bhp.

how do you guys know whether the engine can tolerate such tunes, and whats the point at which its advisable to upgrade engine internals?

could i safely add another 50-70bhp to my 440i and not have to worry at all about reliability? (all other things being equal, ensuring it's maintained regularly etc.)

i've tried googling around but struggling to find an answer.

[Solid67]

Originally Posted by gippy

i'm keen to try out one of the various tunes now available.
i'm not looking to push the limits, and would happily live with a conservative tune that adds another 50-70bhp.

how do you guys know whether the engine can tolerate such tunes, and whats the point at which its advisable to upgrade engine internals?

could i safely add another 50-70bhp to my 440i and not have to worry at all about reliability? (all other things being equal, ensuring it's maintained regularly etc.)

i've tried googling around but struggling to find an answer.

I'm definitely no expert, but I'll give my 2cents before those who know better jump in. At 50-70bhp over stock, you really arent stressing the motor at all. These engines are definitely overbuilt from the factory. I would even think that at 500hp at the wheels, the stock motor would still be reliable for some time.

Definitely interested to hear from some vendors/tuners.

[GA/\/\/\/\A_CT]

Originally Posted by gippy

i'm keen to try out one of the various tunes now available.
i'm not looking to push the limits, and would happily live with a conservative tune that adds another 50-70bhp.

how do you guys know whether the engine can tolerate such tunes, and whats the point at which its advisable to upgrade engine internals?

could i safely add another 50-70bhp to my 440i and not have to worry at all about reliability? (all other things being equal, ensuring it's maintained regularly etc.)

i've tried googling around but struggling to find an answer.

I think the majority of people on here will try to talk you into a tune.

A tune has to degrade reliability, almost by definition. Simply that more boost is more heat and more heat is more wear on parts. More wear on parts equals problems down the road. The key question is whether you find the trade off acceptable.

Some key points that make me feel better about the risk are that bmw has used the same b58 motor (essentially) in higher HP applications like MPPSK, x3M, m240, etc.and those applications all carry the same standard warranty.

The key point that makes me feel worse about taking tune risk is that I’ve read stories of b58 engine problems on stock cars. Given the probability of engine problem on a stock car is non-zero, and that a tune would disqualify your warranty in that scenario, I personally stay away from tunes...at least until warranty is over.

[kern417]

No one can tell you how reliable the engines are in the aspect you're thinking. Most people expect a % reduction or something, but running a tune with safe parameters and all factory monitors in place will run well and protect itself in case of a failure.

What you should be more concerned with are components that can't handle the stress. If there was a glaring issue with the B58, we'd know by now. For example, it didn't take long before N54/N55 guys found out about charge pipe failures, because it's a part that can't handle the increased boost. Years of JB4 + several months from flash tuners indicated that there are no issues with the B58 engine and components, so nothing to worry about. In all honesty I'd say an early failure of a turbo or other engine component has no bearing on tune reliability with how much data is out there.

[gippy]

Originally Posted by GA/\/\/\/\A_CT

I think the majority of people on here will try to talk you into a tune.

it's why i've asked!

totally get your point about reliability - it must inevitably go down, the question is, is it significant.

If the engine can tolerate far higher stresses then fair enough - i just don't know how tuners are judging it.

Does everyone just push it till it breaks? And that's the level when you need to strengthen internals and spend big bucks?

Or has anyone worked out that running the engine with more air/fuel to give say, 50bhp, will wear out internal components say, 20% quicker, due to the additional heat.

i don't have a clue. I've googled around but struggling to understand what that threshold point is, when people go 'yup we will definitely need to upgrade the internals if we want to make even more power'.

If i can add 50-70bhp to my car without a sweat, then i definitely want to do it.
Warranty runs out in 3 months anyway so not bothered about that anymore!

The only reason i'm after more power is for quicker 50-90mph - that's all i'm looking for to be honest.

[Solid67]

Originally Posted by gippy

it's why i've asked!

totally get your point about reliability - it must inevitably go down, the question is, is it significant.

If the engine can tolerate far higher stresses then fair enough - i just don't know how tuners are judging it.

Does everyone just push it till it breaks? And that's the level when you need to strengthen internals and spend big bucks?

Or has anyone worked out that running the engine with more air/fuel to give say, 50bhp, will wear out internal components say, 20% quicker, due to the additional heat.

i don't have a clue. I've googled around but struggling to understand what that threshold point is, when people go 'yup we will definitely need to upgrade the internals if we want to make even more power'.

If i can add 50-70bhp to my car without a sweat, then i definitely want to do it.
Warranty runs out in 3 months anyway so not bothered about that anymore!

The only reason i'm after more power is for quicker 50-90mph - that's all i'm looking for to be honest.

Dude at 50-70bhp the engine reliability is probably down 5-10% at most if we can even measure it that way. There are owners on here that have 400-450+wheel horsepower (FBO - STG 2) with 10-20k hard miles and reporting no issues. I feel like you are really overthinking this reliability issue.

[EricVR4]

Given that flash tunes have been out for less than 6 months, there just isn't the data out there to give a solid answer on power levels and reliability.

Plenty of people have run with the JB4 + meth and made some decent power levels, but again, it's not like it's been 50k miles worth so the data just isn't really there yet.

The B58 seems like a pretty stout motor, so for my $.02, if all you're going for is a Stage 1 tune to mess around with on the street from time to time.....you'll be fine. Keep the maintenance up to date like you normally would, and do like a lot of us and change the oil in between dealer services and I doubt you'll ever have an issue. That won't guarantee zero problems, but you're not guaranteed that even with a brand new, untouched car from BMW either.

[DreamerJoe]

its also about maintenance and supporting mods. supporting mods are meant to make the engine run more efficient w/ the tune, if your turning up the boost than upgrade your cat and heat exchanger/intercooler etc.. the tunes out right now are safe enough to work with the car, if intake temps get too high it may pull timing/lower boost. but its also important to get supporting mods unless you just plan on doing a stage 1, which I say go for it, these cars (and alot of others) are undertuned if anything for emissions and road safety reasons.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by gippy

it's why i've asked!

totally get your point about reliability - it must inevitably go down, the question is, is it significant.

If the engine can tolerate far higher stresses then fair enough - i just don't know how tuners are judging it.

Does everyone just push it till it breaks? And that's the level when you need to strengthen internals and spend big bucks?

Or has anyone worked out that running the engine with more air/fuel to give say, 50bhp, will wear out internal components say, 20% quicker, due to the additional heat.

i don't have a clue. I've googled around but struggling to understand what that threshold point is, when people go 'yup we will definitely need to upgrade the internals if we want to make even more power'.

If i can add 50-70bhp to my car without a sweat, then i definitely want to do it.
Warranty runs out in 3 months anyway so not bothered about that anymore!

The only reason i'm after more power is for quicker 50-90mph - that's all i'm looking for to be honest.

Everyone is operating based on assumptions.

For example, AFRs are a very important part of tuning. The tuner will choose what they perceive to be a safe AFR level, and increase boost until AFRs cannot stay below that threshold. Not every tuner will use the same threshold. And, for example on the B58, they may take a very different approach than the OEM (our cars tend to run leaner from the factory, so in that sense the tune could be considered safer than OEM).

Another example that has been discussed more with the addition of ethanol-based tunes, is there are different ways to make power. They all have risks and benefits. You can rely on boost, and push the turbo to a limit you deem safe. Or you can rely on timing, and add degree by degree until you feel it's safe. It all just depends, but the rule of thumb is you push it until you are losing efficiency (power stops increasing) or one of your indicators shows an unsafe condition (knock, high IATs, high EGTs, etc.) and then pull back some to stay in a safe zone.

Then you do beta testing with a handful of users in different regions. Gather data, keep pulling things back until they're safe for everyone.

Finally you push out the tune. Everyone jumps on it and complains. Send way more data than you can handle. And within 2 months you already have 4 revisions that continue to improve on the tune and make it work better for larger audiences.

That's basically the process for consumer level tunes. You don't push it until it breaks unless you have no idea how to read your engine monitors. And the car monitors enough on it's own that we have little to no risk of being effected by a tune-related problem. You'll get a drivetrain malfunction, limp mode, etc. that prevents the car from damaging something.

[gippy]

how on earth do you decide which tune manufacturer to go for?
there's about 3 or 4 different ones in the UK all offering similar power levels and saying similar things.
I suppose i have to understand how much they've tested, methodology, etc?
I hear a lot about JB4 etc, do certain tuners just have good reputations on which they've built themselves and so can be relied upon to deliver good tunes?

EDIT:
also there are plug and play options, and then other companies here in UK like celtic tuning which appear to be bespoke i.e. take the car in to get it tuned.
Can the plug and play kits be 'trusted'?
or is it always advisable to go to a place that dyno's the car and tunes accordingly?

[track.n.trail]

Just tune it

My car is at 38k miles, 10k tuned on ProTuningFreaks BM3 Stage 1. I've heard of many forum members with 40-60k mile cars with 15-25k miles tuned with zero issues. Even cars with an upgraded turbo are running stock internals and 500+whp with no issues. We haven't seen any clear issues with the B58 so far and a tune thats pushing +50whp is no problem.

[Wires]

Keep in mind that unless you are running full throttle all day long, that extra boost of power would be hard to quantify the reduction of reliability over the life of the car.

In a given day, how much of your drive involves full throttle operation? Not a lot, but it's still worth it 100%.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by gippy

how on earth do you decide which tune manufacturer to go for?

In order:
Customer service
Performance/options/reputation
Price

At this point, most people will recommend a flash tune over a plug and play (piggyback). JB4's only saving grace at this point is the MHD back end flash. I also wouldn't go with a tuner that requires you to bring it your car. There are too many other convenient options that allow you to flash at home, run your own logs, change settings on the fly, etc.

Originally Posted by Wires

Keep in mind that unless you are running full throttle all day long, that extra boost of power would be hard to quantify the reduction of reliability over the life of the car.

In a given day, how much of your drive involves full throttle operation? Not a lot, but it's still worth it 100%.

This. My track car gets maybe 1000 miles a year but a solid 20%-25% are full throttle. It takes way more of a beating than if i was daily driving on the same tune.

Even with my F32, I redline the car multiple times a day. I'll wear out components faster than someone that spends most of their time in traffic, even if they do more miles.

It also depends on your attention to maintenance, what types of fluids you use, etc. A lot of variables here.