[martin10chk]

Saw the top of the thread and thought i had entered a parallel universe - "boring race" - but then saw that the thread was old and the latest post was much more of the moment. It was a stunning Hamilton performance. Really superb. Max is still too much of a hothead for my liking.

[ArthurKing]

Originally Posted by SteveChester

Great weekend from Hamilton showing why he is the GOAT.

Far too aggressive from Max again - running him and himself off the road to keep the place isn't acceptable.

Great title fight and season so far can't wait for Qatar in 7 days.

Ps holy thread resurrection!

There is aggressive driving....then there is Max.

You need to be an aggressive driver to a degree to win races and therefore championships, which is one of the reasons Bottas was never winning much.
However Max seems to feel hard done by if everything doesn't go his way, even when the corner is clearly not his he will smash in all guns blazing and he genuinely cannot see what he has done wrong as he thinks every drive should yield.

With the changes next year, I will be interesting to see if Red Bull can keep up with Mercedes again. One thing Mercedes have been consistent with for a while is building a fast car.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by ArthurKing

There is aggressive driving....then there is Max.

You need to be an aggressive driver to a degree to win races and therefore championships, which is one of the reasons Bottas was never winning much.
However Max seems to feel hard done by if everything doesn't go his way, even when the corner is clearly not his he will smash in all guns blazing and he genuinely cannot see what he has done wrong as he thinks every drive should yield.

With the changes next year, I will be interesting to see if Red Bull can keep up with Mercedes again. One thing Mercedes have been consistent with for a while is building a fast car.

Next year is going to fascinating. Mercedes have clearly sacrificed development of the current car to devote more resources to designing the new one. I wonder if it will pay off.

Same with Haas.. they better have an amazing car given how poor this season has been for them.

[Tengocity]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59285491

Feels to me like there is more going on behind the scenes than we know about.

If I was a paranoid conspiracy theory type then I'd wonder if the FIA were doing some things to try and have a different winner than the Mercedes team!

[ArthurKing]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59285491

Feels to me like there is more going on behind the scenes than we know about.

If I was a paranoid conspiracy theory type then I'd wonder if the FIA were doing some things to try and have a different winner than the Mercedes team!

If it was a fault with the rear wing rather than an attempt to 'cheat', how did Red Bull know the wing had an issue? Its hardly like 0.2mm is visible to the naked eye so just because Lewis had speed on Max, RB assumed it was something amiss with the wing which was helping him?

Even when the wing was fixed, its quite clear Mercedes have a speed advantage over RB so did the 0.2mm wing difference have any impact at all on Lewis' quali time or is it just an attempt by RB to whinge because Mercedes are quicker again?

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59285491

Feels to me like there is more going on behind the scenes than we know about.

If I was a paranoid conspiracy theory type then I'd wonder if the FIA were doing some things to try and have a different winner than the Mercedes team!

Originally Posted by ArthurKing

If it was a fault with the rear wing rather than an attempt to 'cheat', how did Red Bull know the wing had an issue? Its hardly like 0.2mm is visible to the naked eye so just because Lewis had speed on Max, RB assumed it was something amiss with the wing which was helping him?


Even when the wing was fixed, its quite clear Mercedes have a speed advantage over RB so did the 0.2mm wing difference have any impact at all on Lewis' quali time or is it just an attempt by RB to whinge because Mercedes are quicker again?

The whole thing stinks of a levelling up attempt from the FIA. I also wonder how Max knew immediately to go over to touch the wing and draw attention to it? Lewis also got a fine for removing his harness in the car while celebrating. Petty much! Meanwhile its ok for Max to attempt to ram him off the track, unbelievable but Hamilton will be pumped by this and the whole Mercedes team galvanised by the 'Us Against the World' approach.

It's back on now for Title 8!

[MY340i]

is there a F1 101 guide for newbie F1 fans?

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by JustChris

The whole thing stinks of a levelling up attempt from the FIA. I also wonder how Max knew immediately to go over to touch the wing and draw attention to it? Lewis also got a fine for removing his harness in the car while celebrating. Petty much! Meanwhile its ok for Max to attempt to ram him off the track, unbelievable but Hamilton will be pumped by this and the whole Mercedes team galvanised by the 'Us Against the World' approach.

It's back on now for Title 8!

There is something brewing with the rear wings, I can feel it... After the race yesterday, C Horner mentioned something about what Max reported after having felt both his and the Mercedes wing... Something about it feeling different... and then there is the issue of Red Bull constantly having to fix their wings...

Definitely back on for title 8...

As for Max, he obviously does not recall his (and his team's) comments after Silverstone... and Lewis got a penalty for that...

Interesting thinking about yesterday vrs Silverstone...

Lewis definitely turned out of the collision yesterday, and both continued, ultimately to Lewis' advantage... Had Max done the same at Silverstone, he might have won that race (25 points) instead of the zero he did get, and Lewis would have, what, 7 points less... so if he had backed out and carried on at Silverstone, Max would now be something like 40/45 points clear... and nailed on favourite for the championship...

I remember thinking that Max's choice at Silverstone was a poor one... Fine margins, for sure...

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by ArthurKing

If it was a fault with the rear wing rather than an attempt to 'cheat', how did Red Bull know the wing had an issue? Its hardly like 0.2mm is visible to the naked eye so just because Lewis had speed on Max, RB assumed it was something amiss with the wing which was helping him?

Even when the wing was fixed, its quite clear Mercedes have a speed advantage over RB so did the 0.2mm wing difference have any impact at all on Lewis' quali time or is it just an attempt by RB to whinge because Mercedes are quicker again?

I don't think it is so much the particular test failure that Red Bull knew about, rather that they are able to model quite accurately how they think another car should be able to perform compared to their own data and they are seeing something different in the modelling results to the actually measured data on the car's performance...

Hence, as I read it, they think something is going on, but they are not sure what... so all they can do is ask the FIA to check against the various tests and rules...

Something similar was going on a few years ago when certain teams thought a competitor's car was faster than they thought it should be...

[Lynxi2k]

Couple of interesting points here I think.

The difference in straight line speed between the 2 cars without DRS or Slipstream was 3-5mph only. As Red Bull run high downforce set ups, probably no more than expected?

To disqualify a card on the basis that there was a damaged part, and that part had been touched/tampered with by a competitor in Parc Ferme, seems more than harsh.

Beyond that I think that i've come to expect Max to be allowed to do what ever he wants without the FIA getting involved, ultimately the fight and controversy is good for the image of the sport and a new champion even better.

Does have the feeling of a championship slipping away with all the desperation Red Bull seem to be operating with.

[stefan4]

Originally Posted by Lynxi2k

Couple of interesting points here I think.

The difference in straight line speed between the 2 cars without DRS or Slipstream was 3-5mph only. As Red Bull run high downforce set ups, probably no more than expected?

To disqualify a card on the basis that there was a damaged part, and that part had been touched/tampered with by a competitor in Parc Ferme, seems more than harsh.

Beyond that I think that i've come to expect Max to be allowed to do what ever he wants without the FIA getting involved, ultimately the fight and controversy is good for the image of the sport and a new champion even better.

Does have the feeling of a championship slipping away with all the desperation Red Bull seem to be operating with.

It's pretty easy for any team to identify strange behaviour, they know the speed curve of all cars on the grid, and if the drag tails off in an strange way, leading to unusual speed curves, it's very easy for them to detect manually, or with A.I algorithms that they will certainly have. 0.2 mm at the speeds they are travelling will actually produce a detectable difference.

The speed difference was around 5mph under normal circumstances, but in tow and with drs open that was a massive 20mph.

That said, I think merc have just been really clever and rb are just pulling all the levers they can to try and understand what merc are doing.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by stefan4

0.2 mm at the speeds they are travelling will actually produce a detectable difference.
.

I do wonder how much difference. It was only 0.2mm in one small section of the wing near the side, so does sound like a close to negligible difference.

Not saying that a rule infringement shouldn't be punished, but I doubt it really explains the speed differential by a long way.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

If I was a paranoid conspiracy theory type then I'd wonder if the FIA were doing some things to try and have a different winner than the Mercedes team!

As with any sport it's generally not good for the show if one person or team becomes dominant so I can well imagine there are a lot of people in and around F1 who'd like to see Lewis and Mercedes beaten.

However, if they are beaten I think it should happen in the right way and it does feel at the moment like the FIA are quick to punish any transgression by Hamilton and/or Mercedes whilst being more prepared to cut Verstappen and RBR a bit of slack. How Max escaped a penalty in the race yesterday I really don't know - it looked like a very deliberate move to run his title rival off the track and if the roles had been reversed I bet Lewis wouldn't have got away so lightly. And why are RBR being allowed to continually repair rear wings under Parc Ferme conditions - surely with all their technical expertise they should have designed something fit for purpose by now?

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by MY340i

is there a F1 101 guide for newbie F1 fans?

1. Lewis is the GOAT
.01 Max/RB a bit whingy and not very sporting

Happy to help

[Watsey]

Schumacher, Senna and Prost have all, at some point in the F1 racing careers, deliberately and literally driven into another driver/car in order to secure a victory and have even sealed a championship in this way.

Apparently they were all great champions.

Why is the hard racing between Hamilton and Verstappen judged to be any different ?

IMO yesterday's incident at Turn 4 was rightly left alone but the stewards. Both drivers left the track, both were disadvantaged as a result. There wasn't any contact. Undoubtedly the cornering line was determined by Max's placement of his car, but both cars could continue at speed.

Good hard racing. After so many years of processional F1, almost like fast parade laps at times, this return to form should be applauded. Far more entertaining.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Apparently they were all great champions.

They were great despite doing those things, not because of, so I'm not sure it has any relevance on what happened yesterday. The entertainment should be about what happens on track, but surely that's through fair racing, not through crashes.

[Lynxi2k]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Schumacher, Senna and Prost have all, at some point in the F1 racing careers, deliberately and literally driven into another driver/car in order to secure a victory and have even sealed a championship in this way.

Apparently they were all great champions.

Why is the hard racing between Hamilton and Verstappen judged to be any different ?

IMO yesterday's incident at Turn 4 was rightly left alone but the stewards. Both drivers left the track, both were disadvantaged as a result. There wasn't any contact. Undoubtedly the cornering line was determined by Max's placement of his car, but both cars could continue at speed.

Good hard racing. After so many years of processional F1, almost like fast parade laps at times, this return to form should be applauded. Far more entertaining.

The main difference being discussed here is that if Max is in Lewis's position from the weekend, he will make contact and complain about it after. Lewis gets out of harms way to continue fighting. See, Silverstone, and Lewis picked up a penalty for doing less of what Max did, but Max decided not move.

I think we all agree it is more exciting, we are all talking about it, the rules just need to be consistent for both drivers.

As for, Senna, Prost and Schumacher. I think they are all considered great champions in spite of the incidents that marred their careers but made them what they were. If Max goes on to win multiple championships then he may be talked about in the same way.

Acknowledged their genius and takes into account their flaws. Max is just potential(at this point) and should he not win this year or other years due to his aggressive nature it will be a different narrative as at this point could cost him more than it gains.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Schumacher, Senna and Prost have all, at some point in the F1 racing careers, deliberately and literally driven into another driver/car in order to secure a victory and have even sealed a championship in this way.

Apparently they were all great champions.

Why is the hard racing between Hamilton and Verstappen judged to be any different ?

IMO yesterday's incident at Turn 4 was rightly left alone but the stewards. Both drivers left the track, both were disadvantaged as a result. There wasn't any contact. Undoubtedly the cornering line was determined by Max's placement of his car, but both cars could continue at speed.

Good hard racing. After so many years of processional F1, almost like fast parade laps at times, this return to form should be applauded. Far more entertaining.

For me, Senna did it too much, even though I was a Senna fan and "supported" him despite Mansell-mania. Prost really only got into that kind of move with Senna. Senna mainly, but not exclusively, with Prost. Strange times as well with the 11/16 scoring system.

Schumacher was consistently unsporting and found himself in a team that was more than a touch cynical. Despite his speed, wins and titles, I found little to enjoy with his style of achieving it.

Max comes across as entitled and is most like Schumacher imho. Win at all costs. Hang the sport, forget the other driver.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Schumacher, Senna and Prost have all, at some point in the F1 racing careers, deliberately and literally driven into another driver/car in order to secure a victory and have even sealed a championship in this way.

Apparently they were all great champions.

Why is the hard racing between Hamilton and Verstappen judged to be any different ?

IMO yesterday's incident at Turn 4 was rightly left alone but the stewards. Both drivers left the track, both were disadvantaged as a result. There wasn't any contact. Undoubtedly the cornering line was determined by Max's placement of his car, but both cars could continue at speed.

Good hard racing. After so many years of processional F1, almost like fast parade laps at times, this return to form should be applauded. Far more entertaining.

I'd agree with all this too…but this season at Silverstone Hamilton got a 10s penalty and precedent was set.

In the same season the Stewards need to be applying the same ruling and judgement to similar 'offences'.

- Neither given and hard racing - ok
- Both given - ok

- Given to Mercedes driver and not Red Bull because of ??? (Levelling up to make the series exciting - just suggesting) - Not ok

[SteveChester]

Lewis left the track because he didn't really have much choice…. Either that or have a contact with Max.

That's not hard racing.

[sahajesh]

Also Christian Horner prefers the nickname "Whiny Spice".

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Schumacher, Senna and Prost have all, at some point in the F1 racing careers, deliberately and literally driven into another driver/car in order to secure a victory and have even sealed a championship in this way.

Apparently they were all great champions.

It always amuses me when people try to lump Prost in with Senna and Schumacher when it comes to dirty driving. Prost was guilty of one iffy move in his career - Suzuka 1989 - and that was because he was fed-up with continually having to concede ground to Senna to avoid an accident. He said before that race he wasn't going to leave the door open any more and when Senna called his bluff - and tried a move that would only work with the co-operation of the person being overtaken - a coming together was the inevitable result. However, the clumsy way in which Prost closed the door showed it wasn't exactly second nature for him and no way in the world was he an habitual dirty driver in the same way as the other two (all IMHO of course!).

Originally Posted by Watsey

IMO yesterday's incident at Turn 4 was rightly left alone but the stewards. Both drivers left the track, both were disadvantaged as a result. There wasn't any contact. Undoubtedly the cornering line was determined by Max's placement of his car, but both cars could continue at speed.

Good hard racing. After so many years of processional F1, almost like fast parade laps at times, this return to form should be applauded. Far more entertaining.

Except the rules don't allow one driver to run another off the track but that's what Verstappen appeared to do to Hamilton yesterday; the only reason there was no contact was because Lewis was alert enough to see what Max was doing and took avoiding action. Whether Hamilton would gave got away with the same move without penalty if the roles had been reversed I'm not sure but regardless I thought his reaction after the race was excellent; he made no issue of the incident and basically sent a message to Verstappen along the lines of you can try what you like but I'll keep fighting and won't be intimidated...