[luke1990]

Hi all,

I have a mild tune on my F36 435d - 360hp / 720Nm - the top end is kind of low - just the nature of tuners around here unfortunately (central europe). So I was thinking Im going to help things around by putting new IC in - heard good things about the CSF and that it can easily boost HP - the video many of you have seen from Evolve . Easy HP up top. There was one comment I read on the IC thread here which talked about bad lag - but it was on single turbo setup so I thought Ill be fine.

Well today I got in the car. First thing - it sounded better - but maybe thats just me thinking . When I did a bit of sporty driving though I could feel that I lack the push into the seat I got with the stock IC - it just wasnt there. This was then confirmed in my 0-100km and 1/4 mile runs.
Stock: 0-100km 4.3-4.6s 1/4 mile 12.40-12.60 - both depends if the LC engages and on shifting; 0-100km without LC 5.1s
With CSF IC:0-100km 4.8-4.9s (without full LC - so vs 4.6 stock), 1/4 mile 12.74, 0-100km without LC 5.5-5.6s
well not the results I was expecting. I knew the IC was bigger, but I didnt expect this - this is attrotious result. You can clearly see it on a Dragy app - the G push comes later on the graphs. Might post something later.

Anyhow.
1) Did anybody else experience anything similiar? Or is this just the nature of the CSF IC?
2) Could it be that the IC was not properly put in and that is causing the issue? If so - how would I find out?
3) I am thinking of swapping in the Wagner - but don't want to experience the same :/ or basically on benefit over the stock. Thoughts?

Thanks a ton!

EDIT: Updated results at the bottom of this page

[fantanas]

Both the CSF and the Wagner should produce very similar results. You probably got a boost leak somewhere. Do you hear a hissing/high pitch sound?

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by fantanas

Both the CSF and the Wagner should produce very similar results. You probably got a boost leak somewhere. Do you hear a hissing/high pitch sound?

The CSF has different structure - so more lag may be expected. I will try to hear for the hissing/high pitch sound - but didnt today. Also didnt get any error codes or warning lights which may be expected with serious boost leak I think.

The car accelerates fine after it overcomes the first hurdle. This to me indicates lag in the IC rather than leak no? The leak I think would affect it the whole way.

Have a look at this:



If you compare the 1/8 to 1/4 time of the last two without full LC - they are identical. This either means there is no problem once it pressurizes, or there is a leak since with IC it should have more a bit more power :/. really dont know

[luke1990]

Also here a comparison of 0-100km run without any form of LC - just flooring it without the break

[FaRKle!]

I think if he had a boost leak it'd be larger and more obvious. I really think he's seeing the nature of increasing interior volume and adding more flow restriction.

If you want to rule out lag/boost threshold from a stop you can do a rolling test like maybe 50kmh-130kmh and start in a gear where your rpms aren't really low.

[fantanas]

0.3s drop in 0-60 and noticeable reduction in performance is weird. There is more volume but better flow. Also the car is remapped and has worse acceleration than mine l, which is stock. I think there is something off. The boost leak can be a small one and when the large turbo kicks in the effect is not as evident.

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I think if he had a boost leak it'd be larger and more obvious. I really think he's seeing the nature of increasing interior volume and adding more flow restriction.

If you want to rule out lag/boost threshold from a stop you can do a rolling test like maybe 50kmh-130kmh and start in a gear where your rpms aren't really low.

:/ my thoughts. Hence my original question - would I see the same with the Wagner? It also has much larger volume, but its not as restrictive I think.

Ill do 100-200 pull - this should clear it. Just didnt have space for that yet.

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by fantanas

0.3s drop in 0-60 and noticeable reduction in performance is weird. There is more volume but better flow. Also the car is remapped and has worse acceleration than mine l, which is stock. I think there is something off. The boost leak can be a small one and when the large turbo kicks in the effect is not as evident.

I had the IC replaced in a shop - didn't want to do it myself as I have 0 experience. What would be the best way of identifying if there is a leak? I could then take it back for them to fix - provided there is something.

[fantanas]

There would be noise. See videos on YouTube to get an idea. You would have noticed it. Maybe you need a new map to accommodate for the IC. Evolve does remote mapping FYI. Imran@Evolve might have some more insight.

[fantanas]

Not the best example...

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by fantanas

There would be noise. See videos on YouTube to get an idea. You would have noticed it. Maybe you need a new map to accommodate for the IC. Evolve does remote mapping FYI. Imran@Evolve might have some more insight.

Thanks! I don't think I hear a sound like that - then again, if I have a leak, its probably a small one affecting mainly the small turbo. Ill listen tomorrow again.

Ill try to contact Imran - he might have insight. And a remote map with his experince with the CSF might not be bad.

[fantanas]

Good luck! Keep us updated

[Watsey]

As per my replies on other threads, I understand that the CSF IC has double density fins in the lower (larger) section of the core.

If true (it's not necessarily fact; just what I've heard) this could lead to reduced flow and greater pressure drop through the IC.

[fantanas]

But people see 15ish Hp improvement, without changing the map (see evolve video on this). Wouldn't a reduction in air flow and drop in air pressure make it worse?

[Enabled]

You don't accelerate only with your peak hp, however.


Then there is also a potential difference on how the tunes are set up. A diesel does not have a fixed air to fuel ratio, so adding more air doesn't always add more power. A diesel running at 17:1 afr, will make the same power as 20:1. Sometimes less when you're trying for more air, due to power losses from trying to spin a turbine uselessly.
It depends a lot how the limiters are set up vs. measured air flow, etc.

Very multifactorial.

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by Watsey

As per my replies on other threads, I understand that the CSF IC has double density fins in the lower (larger) section of the core.

If true (it's not necessarily fact; just what I've heard) this could lead to reduced flow and greater pressure drop through the IC.

It could - but I think it shouldn't to this extend. Also if it did - wouldn't it show on the dyno charts? I.e. you would see lower power in lower RPMs compared to stock no? When looking at the Evolve dyno charts - e.g. 4:45. Those charts look similiar with only top-end being the difference / benefit.

[luke1990]

Originally Posted by Enabled

You don't accelerate only with your peak hp, however.


Then there is also a potential difference on how the tunes are set up. A diesel does not have a fixed air to fuel ratio, so adding more air doesn't always add more power. A diesel running at 17:1 afr, will make the same power as 20:1. Sometimes less when you're trying for more air, due to power losses from trying to spin a turbine uselessly.
It depends a lot how the limiters are set up vs. measured air flow, etc.

Very multifactorial.

True - its different from gas engine, but generally speaking there is a benefit to more air (under the right conditions of course). Thats sort of the whole turbo thing . You put bigger one in diesel, it will - with right setting, give you more power as well. E.g. m550d is pretty much the same engine just with bigger fuel injectors and more turbos pushing more air. Same with hybrid turbos - e.g. from Pure Turbos.

[Enabled]

Yea, when a breathing hardware mod on a diesel makes a big difference, it just means the tuner is riding the smoke limiter maps. Especially true when you have enough turbo capacity to spare.

[luke1990]

Hi guys - thought I'd share the results.

I couldn't hear any blowing sound, so went back to the shop to check, they checked the hoses both up and down, ran a diagnostic and it all checked out. We went for a drive and the guy said it just a big turbo "hole" down low.

So we swapped back the old IC to be sure and the car went to normal results again. The conclusion thus is that the CSF will create a pretty noticable turbo lag down low which you will feel. Unless you of course you run some aggrisive map on a the small turbo .

For your reference I put together some figures using Dragy. I know - every pull is different, but it should give you an idea what's happening.



Important to note that the CSF was in +9C degrees. Will test tomorrow again for more comparable results. But CSF is slower down low - significantly very low, and faster up top

I like the faster thing top, but that turbo lag kills the enjoyment of daily drive. I'm wondering:
1) If I go for Wagner - I should get some benefits on top, but not as much lag down low - can people with Wagner confirm please?
2) I don't think we can get ATM in mainland Europe right? It should be the best one out there

Thanks!

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Hi guys - thought I'd share the results.

I couldn't hear any blowing sound, so went back to the shop to check, they checked the hoses both up and down, ran a diagnostic and it all checked out. We went for a drive and the guy said it just a big turbo "hole" down low.

So we swapped back the old IC to be sure and the car went to normal results again. The conclusion thus is that the CSF will create a pretty noticable turbo lag down low which you will feel. Unless you of course you run some aggrisive map on a the small turbo .

For your reference I put together some figures using Dragy. I know - every pull is different, but it should give you an idea what's happening.



Important to note that the CSF was in +9C degrees. Will test tomorrow again for more comparable results. But CSF is slower down low - significantly very low, and faster up top

Good findings! I appreciate your A-B-A test and the range of tests/data backing up your conclusions. It makes a clear story.

Originally Posted by luke1990

I like the faster thing top, but that turbo lag kills the enjoyment of daily drive. I'm wondering:
1) If I go for Wagner - I should get some benefits on top, but not as much lag down low - can people with Wagner confirm please?
2) I don't think we can get ATM in mainland Europe right? It should be the best one out there

Thanks!

1) Based upon my time with the Wagner EVO 2 Comp I didn't notice as much low end lag as the CSF. Also, based on my testing between the EVO 2 Comp and ATM it didn't give me as much top end (my front straight speeds at the track were higher with ATM).

2) You can email them at atm@atmspeedshop.com and see if they ship to Europe. The ATM will have more lag than the EVO 2 Comp though.

[Watsey]

ATM will ship direct to the UK (I asked a few weeks ago) so will almost certainly ship to mainland Europe.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by luke1990

Hi guys - thought I'd share the results.

I couldn't hear any blowing sound, so went back to the shop to check, they checked the hoses both up and down, ran a diagnostic and it all checked out. We went for a drive and the guy said it just a big turbo "hole" down low.

So we swapped back the old IC to be sure and the car went to normal results again. The conclusion thus is that the CSF will create a pretty noticable turbo lag down low which you will feel. Unless you of course you run some aggrisive map on a the small turbo .

For your reference I put together some figures using Dragy. I know - every pull is different, but it should give you an idea what's happening.



Important to note that the CSF was in +9C degrees. Will test tomorrow again for more comparable results. But CSF is slower down low - significantly very low, and faster up top

I like the faster thing top, but that turbo lag kills the enjoyment of daily drive. I'm wondering:
1) If I go for Wagner - I should get some benefits on top, but not as much lag down low - can people with Wagner confirm please?
2) I don't think we can get ATM in mainland Europe right? It should be the best one out there

Thanks!

That data doesn't make for good reading for the CSF : as much as 35% performance reduction in the low speed range, and only a 5% gain (at best) elsewhere. Predominantly it's a sea of red.

Thanks for taking the time to log the data and share it. Very insightful