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      06-27-2019, 08:44 PM   #2047
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Use a generator.
And that one works with....? Oh yea, I get it...
What is very clear is jmg has no concept of living in a condo. Where am I supposed to put a generator? In my loving room? Even if I got one of those suitcase style generators, where do I use it? I live in a 750 ft^2 single bedroom! 🤦🏻*♂️

Edit: wait- am I supposed to keep a generator on hand to charge my EV in case the power goes out?
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      06-27-2019, 08:47 PM   #2048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Use a generator.
And that one works with....? Oh yea, I get it...
What is very clear is jmg has no concept of living in a condo. Where am I supposed to put a generator? In my loving room? I live in a 750 ft^2 single bedroom! 🤦🏻*♂️
23.2 inches wide:

Champion 3500-Watt RV Ready Portable Generator (EPA) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009E26LL2..._UmwfDb4RHF4E2

I used to own a condo BTW.
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      06-27-2019, 08:50 PM   #2049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Use a generator.
And that one works with....? Oh yea, I get it...
What is very clear is jmg has no concept of living in a condo. Where am I supposed to put a generator? In my loving room? I live in a 750 ft^2 single bedroom! 🤦🏻*♂️
23.2 inches wide:

Champion 3500-Watt RV Ready Portable Generator (EPA) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009E26LL2..._UmwfDb4RHF4E2
You still don't get condo/apartment living. Where do I keep the generator with gasoline in a single bedroom condo? Obviously I've never checked, but I don't think I'm even allowed to keep gasoline in my condo.
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      06-27-2019, 08:55 PM   #2050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Use a generator.
And that one works with....? Oh yea, I get it...
What is very clear is jmg has no concept of living in a condo. Where am I supposed to put a generator? In my loving room? Even if I got one of those suitcase style generators, where do I use it? I live in a 750 ft^2 single bedroom! 🤦🏻*♂️

Edit: wait- am I supposed to keep a generator on hand to charge my EV in case the power goes out?
No. That's only if you WANT to charge your ev when the power is out. When the power goes out in my house I don't bother because most likely the car is not at 0%. I also have 3 other cars. The original question was what if you wanted to charge it.
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      06-27-2019, 09:00 PM   #2051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Use a generator.
And that one works with....? Oh yea, I get it...
What is very clear is jmg has no concept of living in a condo. Where am I supposed to put a generator? In my loving room? I live in a 750 ft^2 single bedroom! 🤦🏻*♂️
23.2 inches wide:

Champion 3500-Watt RV Ready Portable Generator (EPA) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009E26LL2..._UmwfDb4RHF4E2
You still don't get condo/apartment living. Where do I keep the generator with gasoline in a single bedroom condo? Obviously I've never checked, but I don't think I'm even allowed to keep gasoline in my condo.
If you don't have space that isn't society's problem to solve for you. I had a garage in my condo. Do you? If it is absolutely necessary for you to have a running car for the next zombie apocalypse than get an ice. I have an ice as well. The next apocalypse will be fine for both of us. In the meantime, before the zombies take over, I'll use an EV to get to work because it is better for me.

I used to live in both an apartment and a condo.
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      06-27-2019, 09:00 PM   #2052
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Let talk about "lot charging." For mass proliferation of EVs to work, we would need a charging unit for every parking spot. That's a huge project. Who's going to pay for that?
NYSERDA for those of us in NY State. They will pay up to $4,000 per plug for each EV charger that a business installs...and there's no restriction on said business charging to use them after installation! I handed my employer the info a few weeks ago for installing a handful where I work.

As for the size of the task, visit a northern climate and look at the block heater outlet posts in every parking lot:



Quote:
One other real world anecdotal situation to ponder... since the Northeast Blackout of 2003, I personally have had at least 2 situations (the other being Superstorm Sandy) where I didn't have electric for several days. In both of these situations having a gasoline powered vehicle provided a HUGE benefit. I like the idea of being able to go get a gas can and refill my car if things go awry.


How do gas stations get the fuel out of the ground without electricity? An even better question highlighted by Superstorm Sandy is how do you get the fuel off of the barges and into the trucks without electricity? They were diverting emergency fuel barges 60 miles up the Hudson to the nearest barge pier with power to unload, and the lines of out-of-town NJ cars at our few gas stations with power here in the Hudson Valley were long.

I have two large generators each capable of running my house or charging my car, and could be fully charged off of one in 4 hours in a pinch if I were willing to accept it was only 40 MPG.

Quote:
I think having diversity of energy supplying various systems in my life is a safety issue. I'm not comfortable putting all my eggs in the electric basket.
Diversity like this?





My electricity comes from nuclear, hydro, natural gas, solar, some wind, and even a smidge of coal. In an emergency, I can make electricity from gasoline. Maybe I should stick a "Flex Fuel" badge on my i3?????
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      06-27-2019, 09:06 PM   #2053
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Lol EV is great but doesn't work for over 50% of the US, not even saying that 50% could afford one.

Charging is a big issue when you live in a condo. Free charging spots are going to be more and more rare as businesses will have to fork over heavy $$$ for people parking and charging.

I would def get an EV in the future if I had a long commute and didn't want to put miles on my M2. But the cost isn't worth it today, it's ultra expensive for an ugly econobox. I can buy a Toyota Corolla for 17k which gets 40 mpg. I would never be able to recoup the cost difference between a Tesla and a corolla. They both look equivalent to me(hideous AF).

EV ppl are the worst to deal with and communicate on the forums. They live in a bubble and are super self centered. They think they're saving the planet but that's all a farce to make them appear superior to the rest of us.
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      06-27-2019, 09:11 PM   #2054
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If you don't have space [for a generator] that isn't society's problem to solve for you. I had a garage in my condo. Do you? If it is absolutely necessary for you to have a running car for the next [extended power outage] than get an ice.
Thank you. This post progresses the discussion and brings us back to some resemblance of being on topic.

My original point it is a dumb business decision for BMW to design their M automobiles so a large segment of people couldn't (or wouldn't) own even if they found the product alluring. This is reality for condo/apartment dwellers. As soon as the discussion dips into buying and keeping a smelly generator in my 1-bedroom condo I couldn't be more OUT.
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      06-27-2019, 10:55 PM   #2055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Let talk about "lot charging." For mass proliferation of EVs to work, we would need a charging unit for every parking spot. That's a huge project. Who's going to pay for that? How much are my maintenance fees going to be after I have to subsidize this massive expenditure? People like me are supposed to support politicians that propose such lunacy? No fucking way I am. I'm doing the opposite.

One other real world anecdotal situation to ponder... since the Northeast Blackout of 2003, I personally have had at least 2 situations (the other being Superstorm Sandy) where I didn't have electric for several days. In both of these situations having a gasoline powered vehicle provided a HUGE benefit. I like the idea of being able to go get a gas can and refill my car if things go awry. What are EV owners going to do if power goes out for days on end?

Another issue is what about if the power just goes out for one evening? This happens fairly regularly (say once every other year). Am I going to have to call out of work because my car didn't charge last night?

I think having diversity of energy supplying various systems in my life is a safety issue. I'm not comfortable putting all my eggs in the electric basket.
Who's paying for it? Right now it's local electrical companies, municipalities, and Tesla.

Certainly the electrification of vehicles requires grid upgrades that are already in the works. You're going to see a lot less reliance on the WECC and a lot more 'micro-grids' to isolate those outages and allow them to be ridden through.

As far as having a gasoline car vs an EV. Local storage matters too. So having a battery back up at the house could solve that issue. That's probably coming to homes even if they don't have an EV.

The problems that EVs face today are being fixed even without them existing via technological changes in the power industry. With the exception of charging stations, with...the electrical industry is doing also.
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      06-28-2019, 12:31 AM   #2056
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Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
Lol EV is great but doesn't work for over 50% of the US, not even saying that 50% could afford one.

Charging is a big issue when you live in a condo. Free charging spots are going to be more and more rare as businesses will have to fork over heavy $$$ for people parking and charging.

I would def get an EV in the future if I had a long commute and didn't want to put miles on my M2. But the cost isn't worth it today, it's ultra expensive for an ugly econobox. I can buy a Toyota Corolla for 17k which gets 40 mpg. I would never be able to recoup the cost difference between a Tesla and a corolla. They both look equivalent to me(hideous AF).
When technology progresses in the next few years to a 10-15 minute charge, then charging your EV will be as easy as going to a charging station and "filling up" much like going to a gas station today. Not too far from that will be 5-10 minute charges an we will look back on the nay-sayers as being short sighted. Do you have a fuel line running to your place of residence? No. You go to a gas station. It's not a foreign concept.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
EV ppl are the worst to deal with and communicate on the forums. They live in a bubble and are super self centered. They think they're saving the planet but that's all a farce to make them appear superior to the rest of us.
This argument applies to almost anyone who has a difference of opinion. It's an argumentative strategy called ad hominem that has existed long long before the EV vs ICE debate. As someone who supports the EV, I see the exact same characteristics as those who oppose it. A feeling of superiority, applying their own circumstance as universal (aka live in a bubble), and a strong barrier for communication between the two sides of the argument.
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      06-28-2019, 03:16 AM   #2057
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As for the size of the task, visit a northern climate and look at the block heater outlet posts in every parking lot:
To plug in few resistors that keep the engine warm is one thing, to connect an EV vehicle at the same plug is another. Not to mention many.
The electrical infrastructure is not ready for it. Not to mention you will charge your Ev at a ~3miles per hour charge.
Go and plug your EV in that one with all other drivers and be prepared for a melee with the other mad drivers that will be "happy" after you blew the fuse.
Wait until all of you move to EV and you will pay up to your nose for all the hidden costs to build that network...
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      06-28-2019, 03:24 AM   #2058
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
When technology progresses in the next few years to a 10-15 minute charge, then charging your EV will be as easy as going to a charging station and "filling up" much like going to a gas station today. Not too far from that will be 5-10 minute charges an we will look back on the nay-sayers as being short sighted. Do you have a fuel line running to your place of residence? No. You go to a gas station. It's not a foreign concept.




This argument applies to almost anyone who has a difference of opinion. It's an argumentative strategy called ad hominem that has existed long long before the EV vs ICE debate. As someone who supports the EV, I see the exact same characteristics as those who oppose it. A feeling of superiority, applying their own circumstance as universal (aka live in a bubble), and a strong barrier for communication between the two sides of the argument.
"When technology progresses".

This statement is always funny to me because it's usually from people that aren't scientist or engineers yet they apply a Moore's Law to "technology". Dude where is the ultimate cure for cancer, technology is advancing so in 3 years it won't be an issue?

I wish Tesla nuts would go take a series of physics and math courses before watching a bunch of YouTube videos on how "batteries work" and "how Tesla is dominating everything". Battery charging is not some mythical unicorn that we don't understand...
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      06-28-2019, 03:33 AM   #2059
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No. That's only if you WANT to charge your ev when the power is out. When the power goes out in my house I don't bother because most likely the car is not at 0%. I also have 3 other cars. The original question was what if you wanted to charge it.
Dude, if you are at the 5th floor, how the heck you will charge the vehicle from a generator?
Also, ever took into consideration the noise and fire exposure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
If you don't have space that isn't society's problem to solve for you. I had a garage in my condo. Do you?
Obviously all your replies are unreasonable, posting in here words that have nothing with the reality.
Even in a garage you must have a certain ventilation system to use a generator. That unit also needs air so there is another problem.
Also, in an apartment building even with a garage it is illegal and dangerous to use a generator.
Not the last, your neighbors will charge you faster than your EV once you start that very quiet thing...
You Ev people try everything just to justify your choice.
Works for you? good.
You love it? good
Are you happy with your perception that is better? good
There is no need to find justification for your choice.

Once you are in the woods, good luck to you. Or, put in the trunk that generator and enough gasoline to run it. Kind of like an ICE vehicle, just more complicated and a trunk full...
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      06-28-2019, 04:10 AM   #2060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
When technology progresses in the next few years to a 10-15 minute charge, then charging your EV will be as easy as going to a charging station and "filling up" much like going to a gas station today. Not too far from that will be 5-10 minute charges an we will look back on the nay-sayers as being short sighted. Do you have a fuel line running to your place of residence? No. You go to a gas station. It's not a foreign concept.




This argument applies to almost anyone who has a difference of opinion. It's an argumentative strategy called ad hominem that has existed long long before the EV vs ICE debate. As someone who supports the EV, I see the exact same characteristics as those who oppose it. A feeling of superiority, applying their own circumstance as universal (aka live in a bubble), and a strong barrier for communication between the two sides of the argument.
"When technology progresses".

This statement is always funny to me because it's usually from people that aren't scientist or engineers yet they apply a Moore's Law to "technology". Dude where is the ultimate cure for cancer, technology is advancing so in 3 years it won't be an issue?

I wish Tesla nuts would go take a series of physics and math courses before watching a bunch of YouTube videos on how "batteries work" and "how Tesla is dominating everything". Battery charging is not some mythical unicorn that we don't understand...
Porsche already has one that does a 15min charge to 80%.

https://electrek.co/2017/09/19/porsc...ctric-cars-us/
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      06-28-2019, 04:19 AM   #2061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
No. That's only if you WANT to charge your ev when the power is out. When the power goes out in my house I don't bother because most likely the car is not at 0%. I also have 3 other cars. The original question was what if you wanted to charge it.
Dude, if you are at the 5th floor, how the heck you will charge the vehicle from a generator?
Also, ever took into consideration the noise and fire exposure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
If you don't have space that isn't society's problem to solve for you. I had a garage in my condo. Do you?
Obviously all your replies are unreasonable, posting in here words that have nothing with the reality.
Even in a garage you must have a certain ventilation system to use a generator. That unit also needs air so there is another problem.
Also, in an apartment building even with a garage it is illegal and dangerous to use a generator.
Not the last, your neighbors will charge you faster than your EV once you start that very quiet thing...
You Ev people try everything just to justify your choice.
Works for you? good.
You love it? good
Are you happy with your perception that is better? good
There is no need to find justification for your choice.

Once you are in the woods, good luck to you. Or, put in the trunk that generator and enough gasoline to run it. Kind of like an ICE vehicle, just more complicated and a trunk full...
Seems like you are just picking a fight here. If you are on the 5th floor you take your generator to the garage. It seems a tad easier than bringing your car to your 5th floor doesn't it?

Don't have air in the garage? I guess you are SOL. you should have gotten a gas car for that ONE time in your life that the zombies took over and the world ended.

"You EV people" sounds like a generalization. I have 3 other cars that run on gas. I'll be fine, thanks.

My point is this: I don't only have a hammer in my tool box. I have other tools too, because a hammer doesn't screw in a screw.

Tool box=garage
Hammer=gas car
Screw Driver=EV

I have a use for an EV. It accomplishes a task my ICE cant do as well. Why is your disdain for the EV more relevant than my need for an EV?

Perspective is very important. You are assuming more than what I am saying because you are afraid of losing your gas car. I say keep your gas car. Let some of us who prefer an EV daily driver keep ours. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

How are my replies unreasonable? If the EV doesn't work for you then don't get one? That's very reasonable.

BTW I'm only justifying it because others are saying it's useless, inconvenient, or stupid. I don't find it either. Why is their situation more relevant than mine?
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      06-28-2019, 05:06 AM   #2062
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how does one run a generator in an indoor garage?
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      06-28-2019, 05:59 AM   #2063
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how does one run a generator in an indoor garage?
.. carefully.. with a long exhaust pipe to somewhere else?
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      06-28-2019, 06:49 AM   #2064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
No. That's only if you WANT to charge your ev when the power is out. When the power goes out in my house I don't bother because most likely the car is not at 0%. I also have 3 other cars. The original question was what if you wanted to charge it.
Dude, if you are at the 5th floor, how the heck you will charge the vehicle from a generator?
Also, ever took into consideration the noise and fire exposure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
If you don't have space that isn't society's problem to solve for you. I had a garage in my condo. Do you?
Obviously all your replies are unreasonable, posting in here words that have nothing with the reality.
Even in a garage you must have a certain ventilation system to use a generator. That unit also needs air so there is another problem.
Also, in an apartment building even with a garage it is illegal and dangerous to use a generator.
Not the last, your neighbors will charge you faster than your EV once you start that very quiet thing...
You Ev people try everything just to justify your choice.
Works for you? good.
You love it? good
Are you happy with your perception that is better? good
There is no need to find justification for your choice.

Once you are in the woods, good luck to you. Or, put in the trunk that generator and enough gasoline to run it. Kind of like an ICE vehicle, just more complicated and a trunk full...
Seems like you are just picking a fight here. If you are on the 5th floor you take your generator to the garage. It seems a tad easier than bringing your car to your 5th floor doesn't it?

Don't have air in the garage? I guess you are SOL. you should have gotten a gas car for that ONE time in your life that the zombies took over and the world ended.

"You EV people" sounds like a generalization. I have 3 other cars that run on gas. I'll be fine, thanks.

My point is this: I don't only have a hammer in my tool box. I have other tools too, because a hammer doesn't screw in a screw.

Tool box=garage
Hammer=gas car
Screw Driver=EV

I have a use for an EV. It accomplishes a task my ICE cant do as well. Why is your disdain for the EV more relevant than my need for an EV?

Perspective is very important. You are assuming more than what I am saying because you are afraid of losing your gas car. I say keep your gas car. Let some of us who prefer an EV daily driver keep ours. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

How are my replies unreasonable? If the EV doesn't work for you then don't get one? That's very reasonable.

BTW I'm only justifying it because others are saying it's useless, inconvenient, or stupid. I don't find it either. Why is their situation more relevant than mine?
The issue that many of us can foresee is that the German brands are doing away with ICE vehicles and are basically forcing customers (if you want to continue to be one) to adopt them. I will be leaving the brand.

I'm not going to go into why that is happening as we know who the culprits are. Cough cough EU governments.

Personally I'm fine with choices but I don't want to be forced into anything.

This is when I thank my lucky stars that I'm an American.

WE WILL ALWAYS HAVE CHOICES HERE
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      06-28-2019, 07:03 AM   #2065
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EV proponents are their own worst enemy

We need a serious discussion on the future of automotive emissions reduction
by DAVID BOOTH


https://driving.ca/features/feature-...wn-worst-enemy

Let me make one thing crystal clear: Electrification is part of the future of the automobile. Oh, to be sure, no one knows what the rate of adoption will be and how long the transition will take. Is climate change the “emergency” Chicken Little alarmists claim it to be, or is it simply another of humanity’s many — and continuing — long-term problems? Will the electrified cars of the future be battery-powered, hydrogen-fueled, or some hybrid of the two? Where do PHEVs stand in this grand electric future? I don’t know. No one does. Anyone who claims to know is either a charlatan or Elon Musk.

All that said, there is much disagreement as to how quickly all this electrification will happen. The roadblocks to rapid adoption — at least the technical ones — are well known: Cost, range and the lack of recharging/refueling infrastructure. Electrified vehicles, despite protestations from the fanatics, continue to be expensive, range is not only limited but also slow to be replenished, and you still cannot drive an EV as unfettered from logistical concerns as you can a traditional internal combustion-powered automobile.

But perhaps the greatest roadblock of all is psychological; convincing the 98 per cent of road users who don’t currently drive electric that there is more to the modern EV than boundless hype. Like so much of today’s discourse — politics leading the way — the pro-EV crowd is so echo-chambered that they have become one of the — if not the — most significant roadblocks to sales, their exaggerations, half-truths and outright fabrications doing nothing but turn off the general public.

Here, then, is an open letter to proponents of electrification — yes, even you Tesla owners — with a little advice on how not to hinder the EV process you want to become a revolution:

The average daily commute; the most tiring of old tropes

According to the U.S. Department of Energy, the average car is driven about 11,000 miles annually. That works to 31 miles, or about 50 kilometres, a day, a figure, EV advocates never tire of reminding us, is well within the reach of even the oldest battery-degraded EV.

The problem — and it seems only BEV propagandists don’t get this — is that we don’t buy cars for what we do on typical days. Hell, we don’t buy anything for what we do on an average basis. I don’t wear a Snell-approved, German-built, Schubert full-face helmet because I fall off my motorcycle 0.0001 times every day. No one forks over $700 for a Ping G410 SFT driver because they play an average of 5.2 holes of golf per day.

Our vehicles are hardly an exception. F-150 owners don’t haul their Boston Whaler to the lake every day. No one — at least, no one claiming to be Canadian — puts the top of their Miata down exactly seven minutes and 35 seconds every single day of the year.

Nonetheless, this “average” argument against range anxiety has plagued EVs since battery-powered cars were first introduced (I think I heard it from Carlos Tavares, then second-in-command to Carlos Ghosn, when Nissan was introducing the Leaf). It’s dumb, completely unrealistic and perhaps the greatest indicator of how truly out-of-touch diehard EV proponents are with the driving habits of typical consumers.

If electrification is so persuasive, why do we need to ban internal combustion?

To listen to some EV proponents, the day of the EV has already arrived. BEVs, say the truly indoctrinated, are on the cusp of being cost-competitive with fossil fuel; range anxiety was always a myth created by planet haters, and my Lord, isn’t Volkswagen stopping ICE development in a few short years? There is simply no reason not to buy a Bolt or a Leaf right now. And yet …

Its seems that the massive subsidizes EV enjoy pretty much everywhere, and proposed banning of internal combustion by some countries — including England and France, as well as California — still won’t be enough to convince the public. That’s why, according to LePariseien.fr, two French members of parliament are proposing their country — shades of the anti-smoking Nazis — ban the advertisement of internal combustion automobiles.

Now, never mind that this would bankrupt France’s already troubled media, if the case for EVs is so compelling, why, then, do they need such dramatic support? I don’t remember iPhones needing a ban on rotaries to take over the communications world. CDs managed to take over from vinyl without subsidy.

In other words, EV proponents need more consistent messaging. Either electric vehicles are the equal of ICE-powered automobiles, and can therefore stand on their own merits, or they are a flawed but worthwhile — for their emissions reduction — defense against climate change. They can’t be both.

The “I don’t…” syndrome

My personal pet peeve, however, are the Elon Musk disciples who transpose their driving habits onto everyone else. Take my word for this; write anything questioning the limits of battery-powered EVs and your mailbox will be filled with protestations of a most singular nature.

“I only drive in the city.”

“I don’t ever drive more than two hours at a time.”

I don’t mind stopping for a two-hour lunch break to recharge my EV.”

Never once in these arguments is there any acknowledgement that, while BEVs do provide suitable service for city dwellers and those who like to doddle over their refueling, for we long-distance haulers battery power is a major trial, not now — possibly not ever — as convenient as good old fossil fuels.

If there is to be an electric revolution, one of the first steps is an acknowledgement by EV proponents that different driving needs may require different solutions. Unfortunately, it is this unwillingness to countenance any debate over what our automotive future might look that remains the biggest roadblock to the general public buying — instead of thinking of buying — an electric vehicle. Every time a Tesla fanboy claims a Model 3 is affordable, every time an EV owner denies range anxiety is a legitimate concern; and every time an advocate claims EVs are ready for prime time while simultaneously calling for a ban on ICE, the typical motorist silently dismisses an electric vehicle as a viable alternative.

We need a serious discussion on how to reduce automobile emissions; the first step would be BEV advocates admitting that battery power is not a cure-all.
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      06-28-2019, 07:07 AM   #2066
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Why the global fossil-fuel phase-out is a fantasy akin to time travel
To produce the power needed to offset fossil fuels, Canada would have to build two and a half $13-billion hydro dams every year



https://business.financialpost.com/o...to-time-travel


Judging from the headlines, Canada and the world are on track to ratchet up renewable energy and begin the rapid scale-down and ultimate phase-out of fossil fuels. Most energy analysts consider the fossil-fuel phase-out to be a scientific, economic and political fantasy, akin to levitation and time travel, but the movement keeps making news.

Governments everywhere — from Canada to the United Kingdom to states in Australia — are declaring climate emergencies and committing to variations on zero emissions. The international organization promoting emergency declarations claims “a fast transition to zero emissions is possible.”

Canada’s Green Party, said to be gaining ground, has a new platform plan, headlined “Mission: Possible,” to eliminate fossil fuels by 2050. A proposed Green New Deal in America aims to eliminate fossil fuels from the U.S. power grid by 2030 and phase gasoline out of the transportation sector.

NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh says Canada’s oil industry is on its way out: “It’s the direction the world is headed.” The newly announced Liberal and Conservative programs are leaning in the zero-carbon direction, although less explicitly.

The magnitude of the implied decarbonization effort takes us beyond the possible and into the world of junk science fiction

So what are the carbon zeroists talking about? Aside from massive amounts of government intervention — almost a total takeover of the economy — the practicality of it all looks a bit impossible, to put it mildly. As the graph below suggests, the required technological and economic change could be a little overwhelming.


The general scale of the operation is hinted at by Climate Mobilization, an organization promoting climate emergency declarations: “Only WWII-scale Climate Mobilization can protect humanity and the natural world.”

In keeping with the analogy, here are some indicators of the magnitude of the coming Green World War III.

To produce the electric power needed to offset the lost fossil fuel energy, Canada would have to build 2.5 hydro power dams the size of British Columbia’s $13-billion Site C project somewhere in the country “every year for the foreseeable future” leading up to the proposed 2050 carbon reduction targets. The geographic and cost obstacles send that prospect into the realm of the impossible.

On a global basis, the magnitude of the implied decarbonization effort illustrated in the graph takes us beyond the possible and into the world of junk science fiction. In 2018, world consumption of fossil fuels rose to 11,865 million tonnes of oil equivalent (mtoe). To get that down to near zero by 2050 as proposed by the zeroists would require a lot of alternative energy sources.

University of Colorado scientist Roger Pielke Jr. did some of the rough numbers. “There are 11,161 days until 2050. Getting to net zero by 2050 requires replacing one mtoe of fossil fuel consumption every day starting now.” On a global basis, such a transition would require building the equivalent of one new 1.5-gigawatt nuclear plant every day for the next 30 years.

If not nuclear, then maybe solar? According to a U.S. government site, it takes about three million solar panels to produce one gigawatt of energy, which means that by 2050 the world will need 3,000,000 X 11,865 solar panels to offset fossil fuels. The wind alternative would require about 430 new wind turbines each of the 11,865 days leading to 2050.

So far, other tested technologies do not exist to offset the fossil fuel energy that would be lost under the green zero targets. Maybe this is a world war that should be stopped before it gets out of control.
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      06-28-2019, 07:37 AM   #2067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
You still don't get condo/apartment living. Where do I keep the generator with gasoline in a single bedroom condo? Obviously I've never checked, but I don't think I'm even allowed to keep gasoline in my condo.
I used to live in an apartment complex, and keep my racing tires and tow-behind tire trailer in my living room between racing weekends! I put casters on the back "bumper" of the trailer, and would stand it vertical to roll it through the hallways (unloaded, of course) and into my apartment. The property manager watched me push it down the hallway once, and didn't say a word.

I will agree that owning an EV is not convenient for apartment-dwellers, but then again owning a car isn't convenient and maybe Uber is a better choice for some?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Wait until all of you move to EV and you will pay up to your nose for all the hidden costs to build that network...
FYI, Volkswagen has already made a down payment through its $2 billion DieselGate settlement promising to build charging stations, and construction has already begun at their charger location about 7 miles away from my house.....

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      06-28-2019, 08:20 AM   #2068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
[SIZE="4"]We need a serious discussion on the future of automotive emissions reduction
by DAVID BOOTH[/SIZE]


https://driving.ca/features/feature-...wn-worst-enemy

Let me make one thing crystal clear: Electrification is part of the future of the automobile. Oh, to be sure, no one knows what the rate of adoption will be and how long the transition will take. Is climate change the “emergency” Chicken Little alarmists claim it to be, or is it simply another of humanity’s many — and continuing — long-term problems? Will the electrified cars of the future be battery-powered, hydrogen-fueled, or some hybrid of the two? Where do PHEVs stand in this grand electric future? I don’t know. No one does. Anyone who claims to know is either a charlatan or Elon Musk.

All that said, there is much disagreement as to how quickly all this electrification will happen. The roadblocks to rapid adoption — at least the technical ones — are well known: Cost, range and the lack of recharging/refueling infrastructure. Electrified vehicles, despite protestations from the fanatics, continue to be expensive, range is not only limited but also slow to be replenished, and you still cannot drive an EV as unfettered from logistical concerns as you can a traditional internal combustion-powered automobile.

But perhaps the greatest roadblock of all is psychological; convincing the 98 per cent of road users who don’t currently drive electric that there is more to the modern EV than boundless hype. Like so much of today’s discourse — politics leading the way — the pro-EV crowd is so echo-chambered that they have become one of the — if not the — most significant roadblocks to sales, their exaggerations, half-truths and outright fabrications doing nothing but turn off the general public.

Here, then, is an open letter to proponents of electrification — yes, even you Tesla owners — with a little advice on how not to hinder the EV process you want to become a revolution:

The average daily commute; the most tiring of old tropes

According to the U.S. Department of Energy, the average car is driven about 11,000 miles annually. That works to 31 miles, or about 50 kilometres, a day, a figure, EV advocates never tire of reminding us, is well within the reach of even the oldest battery-degraded EV.

The problem — and it seems only BEV propagandists don’t get this — is that we don’t buy cars for what we do on typical days. Hell, we don’t buy anything for what we do on an average basis. I don’t wear a Snell-approved, German-built, Schubert full-face helmet because I fall off my motorcycle 0.0001 times every day. No one forks over $700 for a Ping G410 SFT driver because they play an average of 5.2 holes of golf per day.

Our vehicles are hardly an exception. F-150 owners don’t haul their Boston Whaler to the lake every day. No one — at least, no one claiming to be Canadian — puts the top of their Miata down exactly seven minutes and 35 seconds every single day of the year.

Nonetheless, this “average” argument against range anxiety has plagued EVs since battery-powered cars were first introduced (I think I heard it from Carlos Tavares, then second-in-command to Carlos Ghosn, when Nissan was introducing the Leaf). It’s dumb, completely unrealistic and perhaps the greatest indicator of how truly out-of-touch diehard EV proponents are with the driving habits of typical consumers.

If electrification is so persuasive, why do we need to ban internal combustion?

To listen to some EV proponents, the day of the EV has already arrived. BEVs, say the truly indoctrinated, are on the cusp of being cost-competitive with fossil fuel; range anxiety was always a myth created by planet haters, and my Lord, isn’t Volkswagen stopping ICE development in a few short years? There is simply no reason not to buy a Bolt or a Leaf right now. And yet …

Its seems that the massive subsidizes EV enjoy pretty much everywhere, and proposed banning of internal combustion by some countries — including England and France, as well as California — still won’t be enough to convince the public. That’s why, according to LePariseien.fr, two French members of parliament are proposing their country — shades of the anti-smoking Nazis — ban the advertisement of internal combustion automobiles.

Now, never mind that this would bankrupt France’s already troubled media, if the case for EVs is so compelling, why, then, do they need such dramatic support? I don’t remember iPhones needing a ban on rotaries to take over the communications world. CDs managed to take over from vinyl without subsidy.

In other words, EV proponents need more consistent messaging. Either electric vehicles are the equal of ICE-powered automobiles, and can therefore stand on their own merits, or they are a flawed but worthwhile — for their emissions reduction — defense against climate change. They can’t be both.

The “I don’t…” syndrome

My personal pet peeve, however, are the Elon Musk disciples who transpose their driving habits onto everyone else. Take my word for this; write anything questioning the limits of battery-powered EVs and your mailbox will be filled with protestations of a most singular nature.

“I only drive in the city.”

“I don’t ever drive more than two hours at a time.”

I don’t mind stopping for a two-hour lunch break to recharge my EV.”

Never once in these arguments is there any acknowledgement that, while BEVs do provide suitable service for city dwellers and those who like to doddle over their refueling, for we long-distance haulers battery power is a major trial, not now — possibly not ever — as convenient as good old fossil fuels.

If there is to be an electric revolution, one of the first steps is an acknowledgement by EV proponents that different driving needs may require different solutions. Unfortunately, it is this unwillingness to countenance any debate over what our automotive future might look that remains the biggest roadblock to the general public buying — instead of thinking of buying — an electric vehicle. Every time a Tesla fanboy claims a Model 3 is affordable, every time an EV owner denies range anxiety is a legitimate concern; and every time an advocate claims EVs are ready for prime time while simultaneously calling for a ban on ICE, the typical motorist silently dismisses an electric vehicle as a viable alternative.

We need a serious discussion on how to reduce automobile emissions; the first step would be BEV advocates admitting that battery power is not a cure-all.
Damn. $700 Ping Driver?

I haven't bought clubs in awhile. Pricey
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