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      11-18-2019, 02:43 AM   #2465
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Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
I use Booster at work for gas.

I can plug in to charge at work.

Neither costs me any time - full tank by the time Iím ready to leave the office.

Booster still costs me gas money.

Work charging stations donít.

Ergo, time and cost to charge is insignificant TO ME for my specific situation.
That works for you NOW because you're early to the party. Or maybe you're the boss. Either way a minority currently.
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      11-18-2019, 03:10 AM   #2466
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I may be in the minority, but Iím hardly alone. You said below ďcanít sell that logic anywhere.Ē

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineX View Post
The time and cost to refuel is significant on an ICE car but insignificant on a Tesla/EV? You can't sell that logic anywhere.
Seems to me the number of Teslas already sold to date are in line with that logic.
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      11-18-2019, 03:29 AM   #2467
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Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
I may be in the minority, but Iím hardly alone. You said below ďcanít sell that logic anywhere.Ē

Seems to me the number of Teslas already sold to date are in line with that logic.
You one-upped me there.
Unless you are writing your own company rules, or have some other special situation, the cost of refueling or having to wait in line for a charging station is/could-be/should-be significant.
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      11-18-2019, 04:42 AM   #2468
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Here's another perspective:
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      11-18-2019, 05:55 PM   #2469
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Originally Posted by turboawdfanatic View Post
I’d probably be replacing my car by then. But at least I have the assurance Tesla warranties the battery to retain 70% capacity for 8yrs. Being it’s at Tesla’s discretion how they determine capacity. Wonder what they will say and how customers will react. Guess we’ll find out in 7 yrs. That’s if Tesla is still around then lol
They do not warrant "Normal Decay" as of April 2019 and recently replaced with "gradual energy or power loss". What Normal decay means is supercharged too often, or if, actually, the impedance tests fails the battery. See, capacity is never ever used to measure battery health, but impedance. You can have a battery fail due to impedance at 95% capacity. tesla also states that neither range nor capacity can be used as "health indicators."

Last edited by Musashi; 11-18-2019 at 06:08 PM..
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      11-18-2019, 06:04 PM   #2470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Key phrasing there was "before it's paid off". As in, within 5-6 years. If they want to play games about warranty repairs after that, that's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it. If they advertise it as warrantied to 250,000 miles, well, it better last me till 250k miles. And if it only lasts to 3,000 they damn well better replace it.

Edit - also, still not seeing where people are getting $20k for battery replacement. As of last year it was $5k. If it costs me $5k for a new battery after 6-8 years, compare this:

(15k miles / year)/(25 mpg) = 600 gallons / year on gas.

At current California prices of $4.69 for premium (if I got the X5) that would be 600 * 4.69 = ~$2800 / year on gas alone.

$2800*6 years = almost $17,000.
Yes but you just invalidated tesla's key "fuel savings" argument by stating that in 6 years you save in gas as much as the new battery!. Model S battery- 25,000-$, 3 extended range some 15,000$ + tax (place relative). Convert it in CAD for me, and it is x1.6.

Here is the engineering F Y that Tesla is sneaking in:
Your vehicle's Battery and Drive Unit are covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty for a period of:
• Model S and Model X - 8 years (with the exception of the original 60 kWh battery manufactured before 2015 that is covered for a period of 8 years or 125,000 miles/200,000 km, whichever comes first).
• Model 3 with Standard or Mid-Range Battery - 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* over the warranty period.
Warranty Coverage
• Model 3 with Long Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles (192,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* over the warranty period.

*For warranty claims specific to Battery capacity, the replacement Battery will be in a condition appropriate to the age and mileage of the vehicle sufficient to achieve or exceed the minimum Battery capacity for the remainder of the warranty period of the original Battery. Note that the vehicle’s range estimates are an imperfect measure of Battery capacity because they are affected by additional factors separate from Battery capacity. The measurement method used to determine Battery capacity, and the decision of whether to repair, replace, or provide reconditioned or remanufactured parts, and the condition of any such replaced, reconditioned or re-manufactured
parts, are at the sole discretion of Tesla
.

The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage is NOT covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty, except to the extent specified in this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.
(Tesla 2019 New vehicle Limited Warranty, pp 5-6).

That Asterix * says that 100,000 miles ONLY IF the battery is an appropriate condition. Anyone taking their Model 3 at the track, or doing high amperage applications, fast supercharging, or 50C Arizona parking lot just sitting overheating, killing their low stats of charge health, ARE NOT covered as the TeslalMotorClub stories now tell for Model S owners. And those were sold with x-years, unlimited mileage promise!!

Also note, OR POWER LOSS. Lights out- not covered if they feel that battery has decayed according to use.

What I am pointing out that already approaching 100,000 kms, or some 60,000 miles, impedance testing will and shall reveal a steady decline (irrespective of range). If that figure is, say 70% of 3,000 milliohms, one is a fool to buy that car. we do not know for sure WHEN the battery starts acting up, but somewhere above 70% impedance, it does.

Last edited by Musashi; 11-19-2019 at 04:57 PM..
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      11-18-2019, 06:15 PM   #2471
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As mentioned by several other posters, Tesla has built more than just debt. They have built an entire industry of charging stations etc and will not disappear anytime soon.
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      11-19-2019, 04:32 AM   #2472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboawdfanatic View Post
I'd probably be replacing my car by then. But at least I have the assurance Tesla warranties the battery to retain 70% capacity for 8yrs. Being it's at Tesla's discretion how they determine capacity. Wonder what they will say and how customers will react. Guess we'll find out in 7 yrs. That's if Tesla is still around then lol
They do not warrant "Normal Decay" as of April 2019 and recently replaced with "gradual energy or power loss". What Normal decay means is supercharged too often, or if, actually, the impedance tests fails the battery. See, capacity is never ever used to measure battery health, but impedance. You can have a battery fail due to impedance at 95% capacity. tesla also states that neither range nor capacity can be used as "health indicators."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Key phrasing there was "before it's paid off". As in, within 5-6 years. If they want to play games about warranty repairs after that, that's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it. If they advertise it as warrantied to 250,000 miles, well, it better last me till 250k miles. And if it only lasts to 3,000 they damn well better replace it.

Edit - also, still not seeing where people are getting $20k for battery replacement. As of last year it was $5k. If it costs me $5k for a new battery after 6-8 years, compare this:

(15k miles / year)/(25 mpg) = 600 gallons / year on gas.

At current California prices of $4.69 for premium (if I got the X5) that would be 600 * 4.69 = ~$2800 / year on gas alone.

$2800*6 years = almost $17,000.
Yes but you just invalidated tesla's key "fuel savings" argument by stating that in 6 years you save in gas as much as the new battery!. Model S battery- 25,00-$, 3 extended range some 15,000$ + tax (place relative). Convert it in CAD for me, and it is x1.6.

Here is the engineering F Y that Tesla is sneaking in:
Your vehicle's Battery and Drive Unit are covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty for a period of:
• Model S and Model X - 8 years (with the exception of the original 60 kWh battery manufactured before 2015 that is covered for a period of 8 years or 125,000 miles/200,000 km, whichever comes first).
• Model 3 with Standard or Mid-Range Battery - 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* over the warranty period.
Warranty Coverage
• Model 3 with Long Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles (192,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity* over the warranty period.

*For warranty claims specific to Battery capacity, the replacement Battery will be in a condition appropriate to the age and mileage of the vehicle sufficient to achieve or exceed the minimum Battery capacity for the remainder of the warranty period of the original Battery. Note that the vehicle's range estimates are an imperfect measure of Battery capacity because they are affected by additional factors separate from Battery capacity. The measurement method used to determine Battery capacity, and the decision of whether to repair, replace, or provide reconditioned or remanufactured parts, and the condition of any such replaced, reconditioned or re-manufactured
parts, are at the sole discretion of Tesla
.

The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage is NOT covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty, except to the extent specified in this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.
(Tesla 2019 New vehicle Limited Warranty, pp 5-6).

That Asterix * says that 100,000 miles ONLY IF the battery is an appropriate condition. Anyone taking their Model 3 at the track, or doing high amperage applications, fast supercharging, or 50C Arizona parking lot just sitting overheating, killing their low stats of charge health, ARE NOT covered as the TeslalMotorClub stories now tell for Model S owners. And those were sold with x-years, unlimited mileage promise!!

Also note, OR POWER LOSS. Lights out- dome- not covered if they feel that battery has decayed according to use.

What I am pointing out that already approaching 100,000 kms, or some 60,000 miles, impedance testing will and shall reveal a steady decline (irrespective of range). If that figure is, say 70% of 3,000 milliohms, one is a fool to buy that car. we do not know for sure WHEN the battery starts acting up, but somewhere above 70% impedance, it does.
Well articulated responses.
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      11-19-2019, 10:57 AM   #2473
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Once again...got a source citation for this $25,000 battery replacement? Cause I havenít seen that.
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      11-19-2019, 11:17 AM   #2474
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I can commute to work for free if I wanted to as my work offers free charging. That being said I do 99% of my charging at home. Takes 2 hrs after a typical work day and running around with the kids. I used to pay 220-240 a month in gas for my 335. Have had my perf model 3 for almost 14 months. On avg my electric bill has gone up ~$40/month and this past year Iíve put on more miles than typical.

Last edited by turboawdfanatic; 11-19-2019 at 12:35 PM..
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      11-19-2019, 12:25 PM   #2475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboawdfanatic View Post
I can commute to work for free if I wanted to as my work offers free charging. That being said I do 99% of my charging at home. Takes 2 hrs after a typical work day and running around with the kids. I used to pay 220-240 a month in gas for my 335. Have had my perf model 3 for almost 14 months. On avg my electric bill has gone up ~$40/month and this past year Iíve put on more miles than typical.
Do you have solar or anything?
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      11-19-2019, 12:32 PM   #2476
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Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Do you have solar or anything?
I do not have solar. I put on 16k miles in almost 14 months. About 2.5k of that is from road trips for which I supercharged. My electric rates arenít bad... now if I were in California that would be a different story.

Last edited by turboawdfanatic; 11-19-2019 at 12:37 PM..
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      11-19-2019, 12:52 PM   #2477
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Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Once again...got a source citation for this $25,000 battery replacement? Cause I havenít seen that.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...cement.159783/

just more people on the interweb spouting about
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      11-19-2019, 12:55 PM   #2478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineX View Post
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...cement.159783/

just more people on the interweb spouting about
Ahh definitely no bias there, great link! Didn't see any actual work orders or invoices, just more people spewing shit.
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      11-19-2019, 01:02 PM   #2479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
Ahh definitely no bias there, great link! Didn't see any actual work orders or invoices, just more people spewing shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by link
"The reality of all the answers is, contrary to popular belief, it isn't an issue. You would have rebuilt, if not replaced an ICE a couple of times before the battery is expected EOL"
He must be talking about replacing the individual cells as they go bad. which is similar to "major work" on ICE.
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      11-19-2019, 01:21 PM   #2480
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Seems like not a single person since 2012 has had to replace a battery pack for degradation, itís $15k not $25k, and itís all still hypothetical about Tesla not honoring warranties for now.

Sounds like a lot of doom and gloom sky is falling Tesla bashing to me. Iím not a fanboy by any means, donít own one, just someone interested in digging into them.

With BMW I can root around these forums endlessly for most things. With Tesla thereís a significant lack of data on battery replacement as nobody has had to do it yet and weíre going off of speculation, estimates, quotes from Musk, etc.

As I stated - Iím not going to worry about even a $15k battery replacement as long as it happens outside the break even point with gas / maintenance for an ICE vehicle. And given the hundreds of thousands of miles people are putting on their Teslaís without needing battery replacements, itís looking pretty good for Tesla at the moment. The point is also valid that after 8-10 years if and when the battery DOES require replacement, even at $15k, youíre more likely to simply buy a new car at that point.

This whole sub-thread discussion point is like debating on the merits of a BMW just because an engine costs $10k+ to replace for an M5. Considering a BMW engine can fail at 100k miles and require $10k in maintenance, 250k miles for $15k still seems like a good deal, and thatís before you factor in gas, oil changes, etc.
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      11-19-2019, 05:03 PM   #2481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Once again...got a source citation for this $25,000 battery replacement? Cause I haven’t seen that.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...cement.159783/

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...nt-cost.76078/


15k USD, 4 hours labor. To that add 13% tax in my country, so it is 25,000$ CAD. Extended range models (a must for cold climates go over 20k USD...
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      11-19-2019, 05:07 PM   #2482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Seems like not a single person since 2012 has had to replace a battery pack for degradation, it’s $15k not $25k, and it’s all still hypothetical about Tesla not honoring warranties for now.

Sounds like a lot of doom and gloom sky is falling Tesla bashing to me. I’m not a fanboy by any means, don’t own one, just someone interested in digging into them.

With BMW I can root around these forums endlessly for most things. With Tesla there’s a significant lack of data on battery replacement as nobody has had to do it yet and we’re going off of speculation, estimates, quotes from Musk, etc.

As I stated - I’m not going to worry about even a $15k battery replacement as long as it happens outside the break even point with gas / maintenance for an ICE vehicle. And given the hundreds of thousands of miles people are putting on their Tesla’s without needing battery replacements, it’s looking pretty good for Tesla at the moment. The point is also valid that after 8-10 years if and when the battery DOES require replacement, even at $15k, you’re more likely to simply buy a new car at that point.

This whole sub-thread discussion point is like debating on the merits of a BMW just because an engine costs $10k+ to replace for an M5. Considering a BMW engine can fail at 100k miles and require $10k in maintenance, 250k miles for $15k still seems like a good deal, and that’s before you factor in gas, oil changes, etc.

YOU ARE KIDDING RIGHT? Like have you actually researched this comment you made? I strongly recommend you try TeslaMotorClub, as well as youtube videos of owners whom had them replaced.. SOme had them fail at just hundreds of miles (though covered)....
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...ation-problems
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...-replacement-0
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...fter-200-miles
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...y-pack-failure

I will tell you what is MOST concerning- given the "advertised" reliability of these packs, there should never be multiple owners with 2 or 3 THREE failed batteries. Which tells you how random it is. but the problem with random probability calculations, to get a 1/10000 reliability for a Tesla is not possible: to have even two or three owners have 2 packs fail implies lottery odds- 0.0001x0.0001= 0.0000001. Or one in 100 million odds! So when multiple owners come post with VINS indicating first 100,000 vehicles, the failure rate MUST be between 0.1 and 10%. just math. Cold nasty math. Now, unlike ICE- or maintained ICE, the chemical battery has higher odds of failing in storage or use, no matter what, year 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 . So you can do the math and figure out what 0.1% reliability means by year 6...

As for Model S owners, I am sure you already read that the initial batch had free battery swaps, until tesla woke up realizing that they could not afford it, then started rejecting them.. But hey some people drove their Model S summertime only; others, like tesloop, year-round and they still got two failures!! PLUS 3 motors so their bill was 75,000$ covered by Tesla when they used to cover...

I love EV tech, and my hero is Dr Goodenough (Nobel prize winner October 2019)- whom INVENTED Li Ion decades ago. At 94 years , he is working on Solid State batteries as he, and countless others, know the nasty reality of Liquid Li Ion limitations.. I thought he might die 20 years ago when starting chemistry.. But still alive and still working!

As for the break point of ICE, not a chance. i see 20 year old maintained ICE that, true, they would have spent 20,000 USD in fuel BUT that would be x3 Ev battery packs so what 40,000$? Chemical laws are universal - well in the known universe and laws.

Also Tesloop had TWO battery fails replacement, 50,000 USD worth (when tesla still warrantied commercial applications)...????

Ok, perhaps it is not obvious that a liquid LiIon EV pack is a chemical consumable with a finite life ...

Last edited by Musashi; 11-19-2019 at 05:22 PM..
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      11-19-2019, 06:27 PM   #2483
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As you yourself just stated, those were all covered by Tesla.

If Tesla continually eats the cost, Iím sitting here talking about the end result to your pocket. And if that end result continues to be $0-$5k, well...

And no, I donít read Tesla club, Iíve just been skimming the links you guys have been posting and thereís a lot of ďwell the price is XYZ per Tesla, IF you have to get it done...but they covered ABCís vehicle at 123456 miles and theyíve put another 234567 miles on it now with no issues.Ē

Posting from mobile but I will go through later to multiquote.
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      11-19-2019, 08:08 PM   #2484
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Hybrids may be the future.
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      11-19-2019, 08:17 PM   #2485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I was curious about this too. I've asked some TESLA (...or BMW i-vehicles) how much their electricity bill increased. Some get by charging on someone else's dollar, but for those that charge at home, they've seen increases in the $50-100 range.
I average 4.1mi/KWh in my i3 BEV according to the iDrive.

I drove 1200 miles last month and I've been going exclusively to one of my offices that doesn't have charging, so I've only charged at home during super off peak hours (After 10pm weekdays)

1200/4.1= 293 kWh

My Super Off Peak according to my statement is $0.10008/KWh

$0.10008* 293 = $29

In comparison, my F80 M3 CS gets 17mi/gal. It's around $4.25/gal last I checked around here.

1200/17 = 71 gal

$4.25*71gal=$302

Significant savings at the pump and overall a better commuter for me.
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      11-19-2019, 08:20 PM   #2486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I was curious about this too. I've asked some TESLA (...or BMW i-vehicles) how much their electricity bill increased. Some get by charging on someone else's dollar, but for those that charge at home, they've seen increases in the $50-100 range.
I average 4.1mi/KWh in my i3 BEV according to the iDrive.

I drove 1200 miles last month.

1200/4.1= 293 kWh

My Super Off Peak according to my statement is $0.10008/KWh

$0.10008* 244 = $29

In comparison, by F80 M3 CS gets 17mi/gal. It's around $4.25/gal last I checked around here.

1200/17 = 71 gal

$4.25*71gal=$302
Thanks for the breakdown. Clearly you're saving significantly when you drive the i3.
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