[martin_3991]

Unfortunately not I have dynosheets from the different maps. And they are different on the same day and same dyno.
I’m going to play with adding some more ethanol and then log it. And then see Al the difference. Amd start learning from there.

[Skyhigh]

You should send those to MHD and address it!! For the sake of everybody else.
MHD claim it is the same maps and there shall be 0 difference between multimap and single map….

I have been hesitant to use Multimap for this and other reasons. Have never tried it.

[DieselDuck]

I'm also on stage 2+ with tu hpfp, catless dp etc and MHD super license using multi-map. Mostly using 95aki/102ron or E40. Also tried the 93aki/98ron hpfp map. All 3 of the maps with no corrections and clean logs as long as I added enough ethanol.

I've an E85 pump around half an hour from where I live and usually got a few jerrycans reserve in my garage. When I'm too lazy to get some I do run the 98 or 102ron map but there's always some E85 left in the tank (for 102 to run perfect I need to have around E25 mix). Honestly I never tried the 98ron map yet whilst zero E85 left in the tank so I might also get some corrections if I didn't have any E.

But personally I'm very pleased with the multi-maps, it's convenient and they run very well in my case.

[martin_3991]

I contacted MHD they told me that it was something on my side was wrong. And the maps should be equal. I don’t understand what could be wrong from my side. That’s why I never used it. Here are the dyno’s. Don’t look at the e40. Made a mistake with the mixing.
I hope everyone can read this. My English is not that good

[Skyhigh]

martin_3991

Thank you for sharing those! This is really, really interesting and useful as data!
There are a few things I don't understand though, maybe you (or someone else here) can provide some explanation?

- In your stock run, there are these dips on both torque and power (see below)... Never seen those before, on a stock map. The torque is veeeery linear, normally



- 360PS stock power is spot-on (for MPPSK), but 550Nm torque is definitely too much... typically it is well controlled to about 500Nm?

- MHD Stage 2: 460PS is very believable and actually pretty much spot on with the Sport Display (hence the expected and calculated power delivery). However the torque again .... 685 Nm, with RON 98 ..... Extremely unrealistic in my opinion....!? expected are around 600..

- MHD Stage 2+: same as above about power and torque. Nearly 700Nm torque on RON 98 is way beyond what is realistically expected, in my opinion!?
But what is also visible here is that there is barely any difference between Stage 2 and Stage 2+ on RON98. There have been a lot of online disputes on that. Can you confirm you don't feel much of a difference either? Some have claimed better 0-100 / 100-200 times on Stage 2+ with RON 98, there are contradicting videos and dynos around..... (I am soon installing the TU HPFP and will also find out. Using RON 98 + E as well, unfortunately)

- MHD Stage 2+ Multimap - clearly something is not right there. Very strange. Did MHD not provide any further advise / assistance in finding out what is not right?

[martin_3991]

The only thing I forgot to mention what could be important is that these measurements where done with all the upgrade parts installed.
The dips I can’t say anything about it.
I think te big problem and is that a lot of dyno’s saying different numbers.
I tought that MHD stage2+ is around 680nm. But I could be wrong. The pictures are stage 2+ with 4-5l bio-ethanol just for the removal of the timing corrections.

[martin_3991]

Skyhigh I’m not allowed to send pm’s is there another way to contact you?

[DieselDuck]

The dips is because smoothing wasn't enabled for the dyno graphs, it's a setting to smooth out the curves

A dyno is just a dyno, logs and dragy are more important. But 650-700nm stage 2/2+ even on ron98 is not unusual, seen it many times before.

Stock 360hp is pretty normal too so is 550nm. My car dyno'ed the same stock (but with catless dp)

And sport display isn't accurate, this is probably the most random thing.

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by DieselDuck

The dips is because smoothing wasn't enabled for the dyno graphs, it's a setting to smooth out the curves

A dyno is just a dyno, logs and dragy are more important. But 650-700nm stage 2/2+ even on ron98 is not unusual, seen it many times before.

Stock 360hp is pretty normal too so is 550nm. My car dyno'ed the same stock (but with catless dp)

And sport display isn't accurate, this is probably the most random thing.

Actually to me all 3 (Dyno, dragy runs, sport display) have different values and are interesting and important for different reasons.

Dyno - when it comes to clutch-power and torque - known to be inaccurate, as those values are calculated based on (typically optimistic) assumptions about the losses. What I look at there are the curves as such and the deltas between different measurements, for different setups. Despite the native inaccuracy of dynos, nearly 700Nm of torque with RON 98 is something no tuner even dares to exaggerate to, for the sake of marketing.... that says enough in my opinion.

Dragy runs - real life data, but specific to a vehicle with certain weight and aerodynamics, on a particular day with particular ambient temperature, altitude and fuel. Dragy data from M140iX is useless as comparison datum for 440iX and vice versa, despite identical engine.

Sport displays - we all know this is not live data. But it is the tuner's (or OEM's) (realistic or optimistic) expectation about the torque and power delivery, based on logs, dyno runs and experience... It may be off, but again - if the tuner estimated max 600 Nm and the dyno shows 700 Nm... I'd go with 620-630 best case.

Clearly logs are by far the most useful for analysis as they capture live technical data. Even there though, one can see an estimate of clutch torque. In his case - peaking at about 630Nm on Stage 2+ RON 98 .....

Just my 2 cents. Clearly different views out there.

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by martin_3991

Skyhigh I’m not allowed to send pm’s is there another way to contact you?

You probably need a certain number of posts to be able to PM.

I am wondering what bio-ethanol you use (%) and whether you have measured the alcohol content yourself to verify the label? I started doing so, as a quality control and peace of mind thing, and realised that sometimes the data-sheet of the product is quite off from the product inside.

Do you typically put 4-5L per tank? (That's what I do as well - 5L usually per about 50L RON 98)

[DieselDuck]

It's quite the opposite. Tuners usually will more often give conservative values instead of overrated or too optimistic ones. And I repeat I've seen multiple stage 2/2+ cars on pump gas making 650 or more Nm on dyno's, including mine. I'm talking about real people I've met, dyno sheets I've seen and cars being dyno'ed in front of my own eyes with similar setups.

But again I'm the first one to say to take dyno results with a grain of salt. Dragy (car x vs car x and car y vs car y ofc) and logs tell more than a dyno.

[martin_3991]

If we are aloud to talk about this it’s oké for me. If I will remove it.
I use 5l bio-ethanol from 95% and add around 47 liter Ron 98. I never measured it. Don’t know how ☺️ if some one would like to tell me. Let me know.
I now order a canister from 20l 100% bio-ethanol. But with the flexfuel it’s not a big problem anymore. It adjust to the % ethanol.
The most important information for me is to get a healthy car. I don’t chase max power or torque

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by martin_3991

But with the flexfuel it’s not a big problem anymore. It adjust to the % ethanol.
The most important information for me is to get a healthy car.

The key is in the sentences above. The first sentence is not correct, which leads to the last sentence

95% Ethanol is not just 95% useful alcohol, which your flex fuel adjusts to.... it is also 5% ... guess what - WATER! And water is not good to have in your fuel tank, in excessive quantities. With or without flex fuel.

With 10% E additive, we are more on the safe side, but if you think about it, 5% water out of 5L Bioethanol is 250 ml water.... this is one full glass of water in your tank!

I have done quite some research on the topic, maybe I am a bit overly concerned, but I am also very engine-health -focused. So I would storngly recommend you buy an alcoholometer (those used by home-alcohol brewers to measure alcohol content in grappa, schnapps, rakia, etc. ) and to measure the actual alcohol content of the bioethanol you buy and use.

I have purchased two different ones, I could get hold of here. One is advertised as 96,6% premium bioethanol. The actual content measured was 95,9-96%

Second one did not say anything on the label, but the datasheet stated ">95% Ethanol" ... and it came out as 92,5% when measured....
7,5% water on 5 L is nearly 400ml ....
I am using that one cautiously now, in combination with the higher grade Ethanol.

Hit me up with a PM if you wish, once you are able to send.

[martin_3991]

So if I understand you correct it’s not actually e14 when it says 14%
It also measured the water? I buy one tonight. Do i need a specific one?

[Skyhigh]

No. The flex fuel measures the actual ethanol content in your fuel. What it does not measure and can do nothing about is the water which came with the E! And water in the fuel is generally not something you want, although small quantities are normal in any pump fuel or tank, alone due to condensation.

You don't need a specific one, but it needs to cover the upper scale (up to 100%). An alcohol-meter for wine going up to only 20-30% will not be of any use

[DieselDuck]

Originally Posted by Skyhigh

No. The flex fuel measures the actual ethanol content in your fuel

Wrong

That's not how the sensor in a flex fuel kit works

Go to the paragraph where it says

*Ethanol Sensors don't actually read the ethanol content, the readings are based on the absence of gasoline, so if your fuel is contaminated your ethanol readings may be artificially elevated.

https://burgertuning.com/products/fuel-it-ethanol-sensor-upgrade-for-bmw-f-chassis-140i-240i-340i-and-440i


What you are however implying correctly is that bio-ethanol or fireplace cleaner ethanol (etc) not intended for combustion engines may indeed include water. That's why E85 at the pump (even though it usually isn't 85% ethanol either) is probably the safer option on long term, as (other than ethanol obviously) the rest is pump fuel.

martin_3991 gezien je in NL woont en dus vermoedelijk geen E85 aan de pomp kan tanken zou je eigenlijk gewoon een vat E85 kunnen bestellen (bvb hier: https://www.vandijckmx.nl/racing-fuels-race-benzine-racebenzine-van-dijck-racing-fuels/race-fuel-e85-drum-200ltr/) voor de minste kopzorgen.

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by DieselDuck

Wrong

That's not how the sensor in a flex fuel kit works

Go to the paragraph where it says

*Ethanol Sensors don't actually read the ethanol content, the readings are based on the absence of gasoline, so if your fuel is contaminated your ethanol readings may be artificially elevated.

https://burgertuning.com/products/fu...-340i-and-440i

I stand corrected, thank you! Assuming that the MHD flex fuel is based on the same principle. Learned something new.
In that case the quick answer is that E14 as measured are 14% which are not gasoline... (i.e. ethanol, water)

What you are however implying correctly is that bio-ethanol or fireplace cleaner ethanol (etc) not intended for combustion engines may indeed include water. That's why E85 at the pump (even though it usually isn't 85% ethanol either) is probably the safer option on long term, as (other than ethanol obviously) the rest is pump fuel.

That's right, although the E in pump fuel (whether it is E10, E20 or E85) is not 100% Ethanol either and contains water as well. However it is a requirement for it to be dehydrated Ethanol - a process which takes it above the limit of 96,6% (maximum achievable through distillation) and to a level of about 98% or above. (Whether that is always the case in reality.... separate story)
Racefuel E100 for example is advertised as 99,9% Ethanol (haven't measured it though to know if that is in fact true)

Problem is - there are very few countries in Europe where E85 is sold. So for some, like myself, expensive Bioethanol is the only option.

What I have not been able to find a categoric answer to so far is - how much water per tank is too much water. I guess there is no easy answer, as it depends on the environmental conditions too. One thing is certain - the higher grade the E, the better, especially for higher percentage E fuel blends.

[AMG KLR]

3-4 gear logs (3x)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=63ff...90c6fa437debaf
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=63ff...729b3ae4e3cb85

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=63ff...0b43d4d8d8b483

Trying to troubleshoot a possible leaky injector and get overall tune response from car. any help is appreciated

[Sammy17]

Hey guys looking for some insight regarding my log, I tried to get a solid 5th gear pull and this is what I could get,

Just curious about the timing pull on cyl 1 not sure if its safe or something to address,

Canadian fuel can be a bit of a pain to find the sweet spot in optimal performance.

Much Appreciated.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6401...0b43d4d8d8bacc

[jav140i]

Originally Posted by Sammy17

Hey guys looking for some insight regarding my log, I tried to get a solid 5th gear pull and this is what I could get,

Just curious about the timing pull on cyl 1 not sure if its safe or something to address,

Canadian fuel can be a bit of a pain to find the sweet spot in optimal performance.

Much Appreciated.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6401...0b43d4d8d8bacc

Seems to be alright, but you are having timing pull more with CYL6 that causes a Knock event at 4600 rpm. Try to find better fuel or if not try adding 1 liter of +96% alcohol (or Ethanol if you have in your gas station) for every 20 liters of fuel (Use conversion if you have gallons) and try again if timing fixes.

[jav140i]

Originally Posted by AMG KLR

3-4 gear logs (3x)
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=63ff...90c6fa437debaf
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=63ff...729b3ae4e3cb85

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=63ff...0b43d4d8d8b483

Trying to troubleshoot a possible leaky injector and get overall tune response from car. any help is appreciated

I quick check logs, no knock events and ignition timing is very good except 1 log you had a little timing pull with Cyl 1 but nothing to worry about, Unless you are sure you have a Injector Leak

[Sammy17]

Originally Posted by jav140i

Seems to be alright, but you are having timing pull more with CYL6 that causes a Knock event at 4600 rpm. Try to find better fuel or if not try adding 1 liter of +96% alcohol (or Ethanol if you have in your gas station) for every 20 liters of fuel (Use conversion if you have gallons) and try again if timing fixes.

Thanks for that, I guess I overlooked the knock detected which is why I wanted another set of eyes, seems like the s 2+ multimap likes to pull timing and is very octane dependent, I will go ahead and try another fuel station and go from there.