[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Deplorable behaviour from some members of the Cabinet. Take Raab for example - if he felt that he couldn't support the draft text then he should stand up and make his position known. Forcefully. Fight for further amendments; make it clear that he does not support the proposed deal. Speak to the press about his concerns. Stay in the Cabinet to ensure that the deal is halted and taken back to the negotiating table.

What does he do in reality ? Let the Cabinet meeting conclude, 'sleep on it' to make it sound convincing, then resign not only his Cabinet position but also any further accountability. Career politician mentality and behaviour. Spineless.

A unicorn deal was never going to be a reality but, from the news coverage that I've watched and the excerpts from the draft deal that I've read, it seems clear that the UK would be locked into a Customs Union which it would not be permitted to leave unless the EU gave it's consent. Worse legal terms than the UK's pre-referendum rights. No wonder that Barnier was suddenly full of praise for the efforts and outcomes.

Utterly shambolic.

Yep, Rabb is a tool, like his predecessor, Davis.
Based on what my senior friends in the Civil Service tell me, however, it's the CS who have been doing all the work for many months now, along with their counterparts in the EU administration. Rabb was only a figurehead - and a pretty ineffectual one at that.
It was never going to be easy, but I never thought that the betrayals, the infighting and the general politicking within the Tory party would be this bad, not to mention the ineptitude of the opposition from the outset.
A sorry state of affairs, and all the result of a massive own goal, of course.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I agree she's playing a good straight bat in the circumstances but her deal feels dead in the water to me; thus far hardly anyone has spoken in support of her position...

No they haven't and no matter who was at the dispatch box the situation would be the same.

There isn't the maths in that place to get any proposal through.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Based on what my senior friends in the Civil Service tell me,

Do you rank your friends?

[mikeoz]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I agree she's playing a good straight bat in the circumstances but her deal feels dead in the water to me; thus far hardly anyone has spoken in support of her position...

She must have skin like a Rhino.

[Dyl]

Dominic Raab resigned over a deal he negotiated.

Pretty hilarious stuff if it wasn't such a serious farce.

[aquazi]

I voted remain - but mainly for selfish reasons.

However the brexiteers had far more compelling argument - change for the better, the remainers - basically everything stays as is.

However based on this deal i cant see how anyone can agree to it.

Its change for the worse. We have no say in Europe or its laws, we cant leave europe until they agree, and we pay them a shit load of cash.

If this was the deal on the table then have another referendum.. i'm sure based on what Brexit really means it wont be so clear cut.

[mikeoz]

Originally Posted by Dyl

Dominic Raab resigned over a deal he negotiated.

Pretty hilarious stuff if it wasn't such a serious farce.

Im not sure how much involvemet he real had? From all accounts its been Oliver Robins and Number 10

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Wills2

But we're a parliamentary democracy whereby parliament is sovereign and governs the country, the referendum wasn't binding and was advisory they do not have to act upon it (and as can be seen they aren't whilst trying to look like they are) they are there to govern in the interests of the country and it's about time they did.

Agree 100% with this; the referendum should never have been granted if Parliament was only prepared to embrace and accept one of the two possible outcomes and that's clearly been the case ever since the referendum result became known.

And in response to one or two other posts blaming David Cameron for all this, I'd just remind them that Parliament as a whole voted overwhelmingly to grant the people the referendum. It wasn't Cameron acting on his own and it wasn't even the Tories using their majority to push it through; Parliament as a whole voted for it and the subsequent referendum campaign wasn't fought on party lines. Therefore, Parliament as a whole should have worked collectively to respect the outcome of the referendum and secure the best outcome for the UK; they clearly haven't done so IMO.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Do you rank your friends?

Lol
Hadn't realised it read like that when I wrote it.. you know what I meant anyway

[TodmordenLad]

Useful summary of the draft agreement, by category

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46208764

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by mikeoz

Im not sure how much involvemet he real had? From all accounts its been Oliver Robins and Number 10

Well given he didn't even know that Dover was a major port no wonder they didn't let him add anything.

I can imagine the whole process has been one continuous scene from "The thick of it" I bet it was hilarious to watch.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

All very good except the last paragraph. Thanks to Gina Miller parliament voted overwhelmingly to make the vote binding, which is how it became British law

What parliament gives it can take away.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

You'd need a majority in the house to revoke article 50. Any party doing so would face political ahnilation.

PS shouldn't you be at work?

Yes you would and no they wouldn't be.

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by mikeoz

Im not sure how much involvemet he real had? From all accounts its been Oliver Robins and Number 10

If that's the case he should have resigned as soon as it became clear to him he wasn't actually the Brexit Secretary.

[Herr Dreier]

Originally Posted by Dyl

If that's the case he should have resigned as soon as it became clear to him he wasn't actually the Brexit Secretary.

Why? I suspect he's been working to try and influence the deal to deliver what he believes is right. While in post, he had a chance of doing that. Now that he's failed, he's resigned. In his letter he explained that the PM would be aware of his concerns, and those have obviously fallen on deaf ears.

If he did what you've suggested, that would have been akin to throwing toys out of the pram. At least he's tried. I don't see what's wrong with what he's done.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

You think 17.4 million people would support the rescinding of A50??

Yes I expect that the majority of the voting population (not just Leavers) would. I think we should ask them

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

Infact the average of all the polls done since the referendum indicate no substantial change.

Great fun isn't it. Who said politics was boring

The polls have moved significantly towards Remain as reality has set in. Of course the demographics have also been helped by the cold winter and hot summer.

The odds on a second referendum have shortened significantly today. If the government is beginning to descend into chaos, putting it back to the people, and not shouldering responsibility for a terrible deal, may look increasingly attractive...

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

You think 17.4 million people would support the rescinding of A50??

Big number until you put is against the 16.1 million that didn't support it in the referendum and then you're looking at 1.3 million, 52% vs 48% that doesn't correlate to a political annihilation, they will still vote in the main for one of the 2 main parties.

Oddly enough the only political annihilation we've seen so far is that of UKIP.

[mikeoz]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Big number until you put is against the 16.1 million that didn't support it in the referendum and then you're looking at 1.3 million, 52% vs 48% that doesn't correlate to a political annihilation, they will still vote in the main for one of the 2 main parties.

Oddly enough the only political annihilation we've seen so far is that of UKIP.

Probably as they were a 1 man 1 policy party

[Kyuuseishu]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

You'd need a majority in the house to revoke article 50. Any party doing so would face political ahnilation.

PS shouldn't you be at work?

To just add to this...

How many of those who voted in Brexit vote in GE's? It was a high turnout and governments have got in with less. A party could easily get in with 48% of the votes (assuming the same turnout)

I don't think a peoples vote would change anything in regards to Leave or Remain at this point with how incompetent both the EU and our own government have been in regards to the process. Even then the vote should realistically be on either accepting the deal at hand, or rejecting the deal to keep with the democratic process. All ideas of remaining now after this show of incompetence and mud slinging are minuscule.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

No. There's no move to remain. As I said above the trend has gone nowhere. People are staying with their original position

Not true. A very large poll for Channel 4 News a couple of weeks ago showed a pretty decisive swing:

https://www.channel4.com/news/major-...towards-remain

Other recent ones all seem to have been heading that way as the type of deal we could expect emerged

https://www.politico.eu/article/brex...-survey-shows/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8524431.html

I admit that there is no certainty that Remain would win a new referendum, but on the basis of recent polls, and in light of the details of the deal, it looks pretty likely...
_____________________________

EDIT Here's another published in the last few minutes https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8635341.html

[mikeoz]

iv just heard that part of this 500 page doc talks about intel sharing etc and states that we must pay to access the intel exchange sharing data base in the future...we supply most of the intel for this data base around 46% of Europe's intel take comes from UK....who the hell negotiated that? Seems simply to me that we either get access or dont supply the intel?
Most EU countries are not allowed to spy on there citizens like we and the US so really lack the Sig Intel we provide.