F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > B58 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > WAGNERTUNING Radiator Kit BMW F-Series B58 Engine
Extreme Powerhouse
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-30-2018, 05:44 AM   #45
TWIN-SCROLL
Private
30
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: 440i xDrive Gran Coupé MPPSK
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Got my car back and testing it at the moment of writing...
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2018, 09:20 AM   #46
mike@x-ph.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
mike@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
23785
Rep
190,128
Posts


Drives: 07-335/12-328/18-M4/21-M4CP
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (23)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIN-SCROLL View Post
Got my car back and testing it at the moment of writing...
__________________
Check out our current sale by clicking on this link!
https://x-ph.com/sale/

Phone number 702-494-9435
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2018, 11:59 AM   #47
B58
Major
B58's Avatar
558
Rep
1,452
Posts

Drives: 922 Turbo
Join Date: May 2018
Location: USA

iTrader: (1)

Looks good. I don't see why this shouldn't help.
__________________
2024 X3 M40i
2014 BMW M5
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2018, 04:25 PM   #48
TWIN-SCROLL
Private
30
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: 440i xDrive Gran Coupé MPPSK
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by B58 View Post
Looks good. I don't see why this shouldn't help.
Street driving : not so much difference to be honest. Real test will be track but worse case scenario it will not be before May next year for me.

So, to what I found so far.

My usual trip from home to the exit of the highway almost made me reach the temperature of 100°C where I felt safe to go in Sport+. Now I feel I've reached it slower but it can be because of weather getting cooler.

First time I drove it on the highway in Sport+, I was surprised because after reaching temperature of around 110°C, coolant temp then quickly dropped, even under 90°C (I've reached 89°C actually).

Driving like usual the following days in the city, nothing much changed BUT spirited driving on the highway today, it dropped to 90°C.

So my conclusion is yes, a bigger radiator is of course helping getting coller but in this case it helps getting cooler FASTER.

BUT ! Now I think I may have an issue and maybe you guys can help me get around it.

Since installation, I have an intermittent though rather periodically often motor noise (at first it sounded to me like a phone call from an other car, no kidding !) Opening engine bay I can hear distinctly this noise in the vicinity of the coolant tank.

Could it be cooling pump OVERWORKING because of of the mucho extra coolant ?

I believe my shop but the right amount, I even told them it was more than 17 liters but I will book with them an other just in case to have a look.

Do you think it could damage the pump or reduce it's work life ? Is there a way to replace it with a stronger model ?

Cheers.
Appreciate 1
jalx16.50
      11-05-2018, 12:35 PM   #49
Acheron83
Second Lieutenant
Acheron83's Avatar
South Africa
53
Rep
199
Posts

Drives: F22 M240i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: South Africa

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 BMW X3 M40i  [0.00]
2016 BMW M240i  [0.00]
Why are you measuring engine coolant temps when you've upgraded the capacity of the water-to-air cooling circuit?
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2018, 05:43 PM   #50
TWIN-SCROLL
Private
30
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: 440i xDrive Gran Coupé MPPSK
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron83 View Post
Why are you measuring engine coolant temps when you've upgraded the capacity of the water-to-air cooling circuit?
I read water temperature on the M Performance steering wheel with screen, you make me doubt but are you sure it is only engine water temperature I'm reading ?
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2018, 08:08 PM   #51
BLACK HAWK DOWN
Second Lieutenant
BLACK HAWK DOWN's Avatar
Canada
105
Rep
259
Posts

Drives: 16' AW 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Orwelian Paradise

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron83 View Post
Why are you measuring engine coolant temps when you've upgraded the capacity of the water-to-air cooling circuit?
Isn't it one radiator that does double duty, Engine and Water to Air Intercooler?
__________________
Their whole life sheep are scared of the wolf but in the end, it's the sheppard who eats them.
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2018, 02:04 AM   #52
TWIN-SCROLL
Private
30
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: 440i xDrive Gran Coupé MPPSK
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CIRCLING THE DRAIN View Post
Isn't it one radiator that does double duty, Engine and Water to Air Intercooler?
No it's not, engine cooling circuit have it's own radiator behind charge air coolant radiator.

Maybe I was reading engine temp all the while, silly me !

By the way, if you look at realoem, you can see that there is 3 different variations of cooling system, one without, one with 1 (my car I suppose) and one with 2 small auxiliary radiators.

I still feel that oem water pump for charge air cooling circuit is now too small for the task and it's overworking with twice the amount of liquid to pump.
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2018, 05:24 PM   #53
NISFAN
Major General
NISFAN's Avatar
United Kingdom
3486
Rep
9,709
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

iTrader: (0)

Amount of coolant will not labour pump more.

Wow, what a ridiculously large cooler, the intercooler now has more coolant in it than the engine radiator? Pointless mod right there.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2018, 01:40 AM   #54
TWIN-SCROLL
Private
30
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: 440i xDrive Gran Coupé MPPSK
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Pretty harsh comment there.

It is the same as putting a bigger air-air intercooler but in the case of B58, charge air intercooler is integrated in the intake manifold so the only way to actually do something was to but a bigger water radiator.

Will check my issue with the shop when I come back from business trip.
Appreciate 0
      11-10-2018, 02:26 PM   #55
Acheron83
Second Lieutenant
Acheron83's Avatar
South Africa
53
Rep
199
Posts

Drives: F22 M240i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: South Africa

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 BMW X3 M40i  [0.00]
2016 BMW M240i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIN-SCROLL View Post
I read water temperature on the M Performance steering wheel with screen, you make me doubt but are you sure it is only engine water temperature I'm reading ?
Definitely just engine coolant temp on the wheel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIN-SCROLL View Post
No it's not, engine cooling circuit have it's own radiator behind charge air coolant radiator.

Maybe I was reading engine temp all the while, silly me !

By the way, if you look at realoem, you can see that there is 3 different variations of cooling system, one without, one with 1 (my car I suppose) and one with 2 small auxiliary radiators.

I still feel that oem water pump for charge air cooling circuit is now too small for the task and it's overworking with twice the amount of liquid to pump.
The 3rd variation is for the newer cars fitted with the petrol particulate filter (PPF)

As stated above the pump will not suffer with more volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Wow, what a ridiculously large cooler, the intercooler now has more coolant in it than the engine radiator? Pointless mod right there.
I'm inclined to agree and disagree. The radiator portion of the water-air system has been increased in terms of raw surface area and should lend itself to a degree of improved heat transfer capabilities. The additional volume however I suspect will make very little difference once the water-air circuit is up to temperature. The time it takes to reach that temp will likely increase marginally.
Appreciate 0
      11-10-2018, 03:29 PM   #56
kern417
Cheapskate
4442
Rep
4,992
Posts

Drives: 2018 440i |2016 340i | 2010 X5
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati

iTrader: (1)

I think the main thing to consider is that you'd definitely want your intake air temps to be less than that of your engine. Granted, you have a lot less load on the intake cooler. But there's a reason why you see racers put ice in their intercooler tanks. Cool intake charge is the most critical thing for engine performance and health, especially in turbo applications.\

However, I don't feel like I've seen anything that indicates this mod is needed for 99% of the forum members.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by umizoomi View Post
As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
Youtube/Instagram/TikTok: @kern417
Appreciate 0
      11-10-2018, 09:52 PM   #57
BLACK HAWK DOWN
Second Lieutenant
BLACK HAWK DOWN's Avatar
Canada
105
Rep
259
Posts

Drives: 16' AW 340i xDrive
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Orwelian Paradise

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
I think the main thing to consider is that you'd definitely want your intake air temps to be less than that of your engine. Granted, you have a lot less load on the intake cooler. But there's a reason why you see racers put ice in their intercooler tanks. Cool intake charge is the most critical thing for engine performance and health, especially in turbo applications.\

However, I don't feel like I've seen anything that indicates this mod is needed for 99% of the forum members.
It isn't.
__________________
Their whole life sheep are scared of the wolf but in the end, it's the sheppard who eats them.
Appreciate 1
kern4174442.00
      11-11-2018, 03:41 AM   #58
NISFAN
Major General
NISFAN's Avatar
United Kingdom
3486
Rep
9,709
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron83 View Post

I'm inclined to agree and disagree. The radiator portion of the water-air system has been increased in terms of raw surface area and should lend itself to a degree of improved heat transfer capabilities. The additional volume however I suspect will make very little difference once the water-air circuit is up to temperature. The time it takes to reach that temp will likely increase marginally.
Good post!

It seems many look at an intercooler the same way they do an engine cooling radiator circuit. It's not, you want it to work completely differently.
In an intercooler you want a very fast responding, efficient cooling system. Bigger is not automatically better. That is why air-air systems are hard to beat, they have an in-line cooler that gets busy when a big boost event occurs, then quickly settles after. You want the system to have as little capacity in it as possible otherwise your intercooler spends a long time being an interheater. A bad thing.

Comparing to air-air systems, the N55 has a frontal area probably only 20-25% of the standard water-air B58 unit. The air -air unit is also probably 4 times deeper to compensate. However in cooler design, the second half of the depth is only about 25-30 percent of additional cooling, a function of lower delta t, and capacity of already heated air to carry heat.

When you consider all the above, you realise that the B58 is fitted with a massive upgrade on the N55, stock. But with conscious consideration to keep the whole mass of coolant down for fast cycling response. Looks to me to be an optimal design.

I honestly can't see how adding 15kg of coolant and radiator to the very nose of the car is a good performance mod. :
Appreciate 2
Bee Pee1737.50
lpaulodt195.00
      11-11-2018, 12:11 PM   #59
kern417
Cheapskate
4442
Rep
4,992
Posts

Drives: 2018 440i |2016 340i | 2010 X5
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Good post!

It seems many look at an intercooler the same way they do an engine cooling radiator circuit. It's not, you want it to work completely differently.
In an intercooler you want a very fast responding, efficient cooling system. Bigger is not automatically better. That is why air-air systems are hard to beat, they have an in-line cooler that gets busy when a big boost event occurs, then quickly settles after. You want the system to have as little capacity in it as possible otherwise your intercooler spends a long time being an interheater. A bad thing.

Comparing to air-air systems, the N55 has a frontal area probably only 20-25% of the standard water-air B58 unit. The air -air unit is also probably 4 times deeper to compensate. However in cooler design, the second half of the depth is only about 25-30 percent of additional cooling, a function of lower delta t, and capacity of already heated air to carry heat.

When you consider all the above, you realise that the B58 is fitted with a massive upgrade on the N55, stock. But with conscious consideration to keep the whole mass of coolant down for fast cycling response. Looks to me to be an optimal design.

I honestly can't see how adding 15kg of coolant and radiator to the very nose of the car is a good performance mod. :
i think ultimately it's less about cooling the intake air during high load and more about keeping the air consistent. Even with an air to air cooler, adding volume past a certain point doesn't improve cooling but increases pressure drops and other potential downsides (see the Focus RS cooler with a blockoff plate to prevent condensation inside the intake charge path). At least with this system it is literally only improving the cooling capacity by making the coolant a larger heat sink.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by umizoomi View Post
As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
Youtube/Instagram/TikTok: @kern417
Appreciate 0
      11-19-2018, 02:53 AM   #60
liteprata
Registered
0
Rep
3
Posts

Drives: F20
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Singapore

iTrader: (0)

Wouldnt the larger amount of water allow for a more constant temp for a drag race?
Actually i was hoping that the DME, when hacked, would allow us to control the low pressure coolant pump duty cycle as well as the rad fan so that i have more cooling....
Appreciate 0
      11-19-2018, 11:32 PM   #61
Bmwbeezy
New Member
2
Rep
14
Posts

Drives: Stock
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: La

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIN-SCROLL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by B58 View Post
Looks good. I don't see why this shouldn't help.
Street driving : not so much difference to be honest. Real test will be track but worse case scenario it will not be before May next year for me.

So, to what I found so far.

My usual trip from home to the exit of the highway almost made me reach the temperature of 100°C where I felt safe to go in Sport+. Now I feel I've reached it slower but it can be because of weather getting cooler.

First time I drove it on the highway in Sport+, I was surprised because after reaching temperature of around 110°C, coolant temp then quickly dropped, even under 90°C (I've reached 89°C actually).

Driving like usual the following days in the city, nothing much changed BUT spirited driving on the highway today, it dropped to 90°C.

So my conclusion is yes, a bigger radiator is of course helping getting coller but in this case it helps getting cooler FASTER.

BUT ! Now I think I may have an issue and maybe you guys can help me get around it.

Since installation, I have an intermittent though rather periodically often motor noise (at first it sounded to me like a phone call from an other car, no kidding !) Opening engine bay I can hear distinctly this noise in the vicinity of the coolant tank.

Could it be cooling pump OVERWORKING because of of the mucho extra coolant ?

I believe my shop but the right amount, I even told them it was more than 17 liters but I will book with them an other just in case to have a look.

Do you think it could damage the pump or reduce it's work life ? Is there a way to replace it with a stronger model ?

Cheers.
Were you able to find a fix for your issue?
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2018, 06:21 AM   #62
TWIN-SCROLL
Private
30
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: 440i xDrive Gran Coupé MPPSK
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwbeezy View Post
Were you able to find a fix for your issue?
Between travelling out of home and being sick, I didn't had time to go back to my shop.
Appreciate 0
      11-21-2018, 08:35 AM   #63
5mall5nail5
Not stock
5mall5nail5's Avatar
United_States
472
Rep
617
Posts

Drives: E34 525i Turbo
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

Sorry for being obtuse - is this giant radiator JUST for the air/water intercooler? If so - my god, thats large. I would probably have just considered putting a large reservoir in to add capacity.
__________________
2015 BSM 328i Sport Line - BSM
2015 BSM X1 M Sport - BSM
1992 525i
1987 325e
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2018, 12:24 PM   #64
Bmwbeezy
New Member
2
Rep
14
Posts

Drives: Stock
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: La

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIN-SCROLL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwbeezy View Post
Were you able to find a fix for your issue?
Between travelling out of home and being sick, I didn't had time to go back to my shop.
Have you had an opportunity to find the issue?
Appreciate 0
      12-08-2018, 11:06 AM   #65
kern417
Cheapskate
4442
Rep
4,992
Posts

Drives: 2018 440i |2016 340i | 2010 X5
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWIN-SCROLL View Post
Could it be cooling pump OVERWORKING because of of the mucho extra coolant ?

I believe my shop but the right amount, I even told them it was more than 17 liters but I will book with them an other just in case to have a look.

Do you think it could damage the pump or reduce it's work life ? Is there a way to replace it with a stronger model ?

Cheers.
That's not how pumps work. It's fine. It's going to flow the same volume of fluid regardless of how much is in the system. It's not like your fuel pump works harder when your gas tank is full.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by umizoomi View Post
As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
Youtube/Instagram/TikTok: @kern417
Appreciate 0
      01-22-2019, 03:43 PM   #66
TWIN-SCROLL
Private
30
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: 440i xDrive Gran Coupé MPPSK
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

GUYS, PROBLEM IS FINALLY SOLVED !

Long story short, my garage found that the culprit was a faulty ground in the electrical system. Took him 2 days to figure it out.

This ground problem lead to the pump noise problem, plus it happened to also trigger the front fan abnormally AND I had a loss in power past 4500RPM too.

Truth be told, I did a dyno run before Christmas and I was too ashamed to report it here... Ground problem also screwed up engine map apparently.

Now it's sorted, I need to find time to test the car more deeply before transmission flash and engine tuning, I have a new tuner in my area who has a franchise of BR-Performance, a well known tuner in Europe.

Stay tuned but I'm so relieved for now !
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:59 PM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST