[mcoops]

Not sure if everyone has seen this - an 'unpublished' (deliberately leaked/planted?) doc justifying the ESL:

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ying-breakaway

Superficially, there is stuff in here which ticks some boxes - fan-focus and 'affordable' ticket prices, higher payments to non-ESL clubs than from existing European competitions, and continued commitment to domestic leagues.

Two questions spring to mind off the back of that: 1) are those commitments credible (and the devil will be in the detail), and 2) if those are the objectives, I'm not sure how that is delivered by the closed-shop ESL template as published. One really doesn't appear to lead to the other.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Not only is it not really the same I'd argue it's fundamentally different!

The system in the Premier League era allowed a club like Bournemouth to go from the bottom of League 2 all the way to the top flight and stay there for several seasons. It also allowed a founding PL member like my team (Leeds) - who were actually the reigning Champions when the PL era started - to be relegated and go all the way down to League 1. Both of those scenarios should absolutely be able to happen but in that respect what's being proposed with this current ESL couldn't be more different (at least for the founding 75%!).

Hmmm, well, yes, they maintained the concept of relegation/promotion but one might argue that some of the financial objectives were quite similar in comparison... I mean, much of what you have mentioned there was also easily possible before the Premier League, so we did not need to do that to give teams a chance to go up... When I was a lad, Swansea went from Division 4 to Division 1 in three years.. admittedly, they then went in reverse, in another three years, but they did it......

... and whilst, yes, it is in theory still possible for clubs to come from non-league to win the Premier League, it is generally harder (and becoming progressively more hard) for clubs coming up the ladder, up from the Championship, to survive in the Prem (and higher leagues in general)... Just trying to compete with the financial imbalances is really tough... more tough than it used to be...

I think most folk would kind of agree that the higher up the ladder you are, the more you will earn, but it might be argued that we have created gaps and hurdles that are too big... and some of that is down to higher clubs seeking to protect themselves...

So we are starting to see more yo-yo clubs as they enter the Championship with significant parachute payments...

Hats off to Leeds for the way they have gone about this year and (fingers crossed) they stay in the prem (I am old enough to remember being at Leeds Utd's great European Cup Semi Final against Barcelona... we used to go as a family back then...).. I would say that Leeds' years at the top of the Championship without gaining promotion actually led to their being more able to stay up because they were always building the team... Sheffield Utd, on the other hand, have struggled, and they were a decent Championship team last season...

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by SteveChester

The difference is for Everton whether or not they are classed as top six they would never join in.

Of course. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by mcoops

Not sure if everyone has seen this - an 'unpublished' (deliberately leaked/planted?) doc justifying the ESL:

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ying-breakaway

Superficially, there is stuff in here which ticks some boxes - fan-focus and 'affordable' ticket prices, higher payments to non-ESL clubs than from existing European competitions, and continued commitment to domestic leagues.

Two questions spring to mind off the back of that: 1) are those commitments credible (and the devil will be in the detail), and 2) if those are the objectives, I'm not sure how that is delivered by the closed-shop ESL template as published. One really doesn't appear to lead to the other.

All sounds a bit "cake and eat it too" marketing speak, to me...

Fundamentally, it is not for the owners of 12 clubs to dictate how football in Europe should be run... By all means float some proposals, and enter into a dialog (who knows, something really good might come of that) but to just say "ok, we have had enough now, we are doing this" is not really "inclusive"... Which, I think, is what most folk object to...

In reality, they are saying something like - we do not like the way football is run and so we are going to drive it... At least that is what I see...

I am sure there is much that UEFA, Premier League, FA do that raises eyebrows and we don't agree with (VAR anybody..?)... So I have no doubt there is a better way... I just do not think it is this way...

[Wills2]

Difficult to get on board with Uefa and Fifa as they are have shown themselves to be utterly corrupt over the years, I guess they don't like it up'em.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Difficult to get on board with Uefa and Fifa as they are have shown themselves to be utterly corrupt over the years, I guess they don't like it up'em.

To be honest, I have not really "liked" the way football has been run for many many years now... It has allowed the rich to get richer and the poor to become relatively poorer, and has not really supported a "pyramid" in terms of securing a "grass-roots to tree top" stability that, with the TV money pouring in, it could have done...

So, yeah, as they say, "they don't like it up 'em Mr Mainwaring"... But I do not think the ESL is anywhere close to the real answer, however much it might appeal to the owners of the clubs involved...

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Hmmm, well, yes, they maintained the concept of relegation/promotion but one might argue that some of the financial objectives were quite similar in comparison... I mean, much of what you have mentioned there was also easily possible before the Premier League, so we did not need to do that to give teams a chance to go up... When I was a lad, Swansea went from Division 4 to Division 1 in three years.. admittedly, they then went in reverse, in another three years, but they did it......

... and whilst, yes, it is in theory still possible for clubs to come from non-league to win the Premier League, it is generally harder (and becoming progressively more hard) for clubs coming up the ladder, up from the Championship, to survive in the Prem (and higher leagues in general)... Just trying to compete with the financial imbalances is really tough... more tough than it used to be...

I think most folk would kind of agree that the higher up the ladder you are, the more you will earn, but it might be argued that we have created gaps and hurdles that are too big... and some of that is down to higher clubs seeking to protect themselves...

So we are starting to see more yo-yo clubs as they enter the Championship with significant parachute payments...

Hats off to Leeds for the way they have gone about this year and (fingers crossed) they stay in the prem (I am old enough to remember being at Leeds Utd's great European Cup Semi Final against Barcelona... we used to go as a family back then...).. I would say that Leeds' years at the top of the Championship without gaining promotion actually led to their being more able to stay up because they were always building the team... Sheffield Utd, on the other hand, have struggled, and they were a decent Championship team last season...

I know others disagree but personally I don't really subscribe to the view the PL has been bad for English football; yes the gap between the PL and Championship is now more difficult to bridge than the old First and Second Division but it can still be done (not just Bournemouth but also clubs like Southampton, Burnley, Brighton, Wolves and indeed Leicester spring to mind). And of course we don't know how English football would have developed without the PL; perhaps it would have been better but the reality is money's cascaded to the lower leagues from the PL and, while you could argue it's not enough, what would those clubs be getting without the PL?

But in terms of this subject for me the real issue is the PL continued to be a competition whereas - at least for the founding 75% - the ESL isn't. The idea a club can stay there regardless of how good their team is is just a nonsense and IMO anyone signing-up for it should forfeit their place in the PL and all domestic competitions; I'd also ban all their players from representing their countries in international competitions such as the World Cup and the European Championships.

In saying all of that I'm not against change - nothing is forever and if, for example, change is needed to the format of the Champions League then by all means discuss it. However, this ESL just seems to be a vehicle for clubs with money and large stadiums to make more money - you can't possibly accuse it of being a meritocracy or in any way "Super" when teams like Arsenal and Spurs are in it, neither is even going to make top four in the PL this season!

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Difficult to get on board with Uefa and Fifa as they are have shown themselves to be utterly corrupt over the years, I guess they don't like it up'em.

Originally Posted by Wills2

Difficult to get on board with Uefa and Fifa as they are have shown themselves to be utterly corrupt over the years, I guess they don't like it up'em.

Maybe they will wheel in 'Step Ladder' and Michel again to clean up 😂

[DaveA]

The rumour now is Chelsea are drawing up legal papers to withdraw from the ESL..!!!

We're not even in Panto season..!!!

[MY340i]

well overdue, cant wait for some proper games now

[DaveA]

Manchester City have apparently pulled out now... being reported they "have told organisers they no longer wish to be involved"...

Apparently the commitment these clubs signed up for was 20-something years...!!!

[SuperHamz]

Interesting debate on The Monday Night Club

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ctvmw

[SteveChester]

Looks like it is falling apart - we should never forget the actions of these clubs though.

[Lynxi2k]

We should remember this, it's not the actions of the clubs, players, managers or fans. It was the actions of 12 greedy owners.

Football ownership governance must change!

We want our clubs back!!

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by SteveChester

Looks like it is falling apart - we should never forget the actions of these clubs though.

True but IMO it's the owners - and the executives working on their behalf - that are responsible for this fiasco; the players, supporters and coaches of these clubs have been as infuriated by it all as the rest of us.

Regardless, I'm glad to see it unravelling - I daresay at lot of Man Utd supporters might even think it's all been worthwhile now Woodward's gone with immediate effect!

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by JNW1

True but IMO it's the owners - and the executives working on their behalf - that are responsible for this fiasco; the players, supporters and coaches of these clubs have been as infuriated by it all as the rest of us.

Regardless, I'm glad to see it unravelling - I daresay at lot of Man Utd supporters might even think it's all been worthwhile now Woodward's gone with immediate effect!

Damn right.

This is turning into an absolute dream!!

Ed's out and I can't see any reason for the glazers to stay now.

Bring it on!!

[cramsnik]

Woodward was due to go at the end of the season, wasn't due for announcement but its been brought forward.

[isleaiw1]

A lot of fans of premier top 6 teams suddenly offended by greed and money - which was distinctly lacking when as richest / most famous club they had the best players and were walking the competitions....

Nothing like a football fan to prove what fickle looks like....

[pmgreenwood]

The football world started to go substantially wrong and distorted about 10/12 years (?) ago when the European Competition authorities decided true fair competition was that that produced competition for the wholesale Tv rights and income for clubs rather than competition in the retail market with subscriptions for sports channels. That lead to the battle between BT and Sky, greater income for clubs and then players at the expense of fans

[zofinger]

All English clubs have withdrawn!

[SuperHamz]

Well that was a short lived PR disaster.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by SuperHamz

Well that was a short lived PR disaster.

Ultimate football

Can you imagine the stick from home fans when playing away. It's going to be very interesting!

Liverpool (purely because they were first up) were very very lucky that the Leeds game didn't get nasty.

Which fans have recently, European games, and even recent times, had a real go at the opposition bus? Oh yes Liverpool. I know it's not the players but opposition fans were just looking to vent this week.

Very very lucky.