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      11-03-2018, 03:15 PM   #23
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Agree with the above.
And especially why risk without ANY gain!?
Sport filter on stock engine!? Even if the warranty covers the damage in this case, the trouble is not worth the placebo effect being the only gain.
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      11-03-2018, 03:55 PM   #24
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Quite the opposite. This would be the place to preach as 99% of members here do mod. It's a reminder that we all play to pay. If you mod something, be prepared for the consequences.
So he's like the guy at the bar preaching about the evils of alcohol then? He didn't give a pay to play lecture which for a modified intake would still be pretty humorus, he said "never ever mod a bmw"
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      11-04-2018, 09:47 PM   #25
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Do you by any chance have Geico with their Mechanical Breakdown coverage? It is added by default if you bought a car and had the dealer set up insurance. If you do, they would cover this with a 250 deductible.

Also, did BMW void your warranty because a rep came out and saw your intake or did the dealer screw you over?
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      11-04-2018, 10:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240zman View Post
There has to be more to this story, never heard of a dealer blame something on just an intake. Maybe they found something else
My thoughts as well.. my question is did a field engineer come out to study this car or not???

but I tell ya I never liked the BMS intake
it sucks in a mix of insulated engine air right from the vicinity of the turbo (hottest side of the engine) which to me is stupid
running lean without tuning .. with hot intake air
then add in lower octane gas
yer asking for detonation
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      11-04-2018, 10:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by White340 View Post
Do you by any chance have Geico with their Mechanical Breakdown coverage? It is added by default if you bought a car and had the dealer set up insurance. If you do, they would cover this with a 250 deductible.

Also, did BMW void your warranty because a rep came out and saw your intake or did the dealer screw you over?
Funny enough I do have Geico with breakdown coverage...and it was the dealer. They told me my car was flagged due to aftermarket modifications and I had no choice but to pay out of pocket for an engine but wouldn't tell me what was wrong with it.
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      11-05-2018, 07:54 AM   #28
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Except that this is a speculation. Without evidence, you can try „common sense" all you want, will never win. And yes, actually most (especially the cheaper) aftermarket airfilters are crap! No advantages, only risk. Plenty of analysis and videos about it. On a stock engine - this is a suicide. Evidence available at the beginning the thread. Even if it did not cause the issue, which I also agree.
Nah you're right. Because more expensive OEM high pressure fuel pumps, injectors, water pumps, coolant lines, charge pipes, etc. are much higher quality and never fail. Right?

"On a stock engine this is suicide." ....

Please stop drinking the dealership kool-aid. A lot of the companies that make aftermarket components are also OEM suppliers. It's ridiculous to think that a filter from a reputable company will blow your engine. The fact that you still think it lets larger debris through, much less debris large enough to damage your engine, shows how little you know. Meanwhile the factory engine configuration is shoveling oil vapor into the intake tract to be burned off. But it's just another part of the expensive OEM design, so it must be fine.
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      11-05-2018, 11:27 AM   #29
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@jaxon20i, I hope the dialog with the dealer and BMW NA progresses and some satisfactory resolution will be found. There is of course another school of thought: BMW's renewed focus on paying close attention to any modification.
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      11-05-2018, 12:44 PM   #30
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Why not take the car to a reputable indy shop - and use your MBI via Geico - I have had to use the coverage a couple times on my cars and it has always been flawless.
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      11-06-2018, 06:01 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Except that this is a speculation. Without evidence, you can try "common sense" all you want, will never win. And yes, actually most (especially the cheaper) aftermarket airfilters are crap! No advantages, only risk. Plenty of analysis and videos about it. On a stock engine - this is a suicide. Evidence available at the beginning the thread. Even if it did not cause the issue, which I also agree.
Nah you're right. Because more expensive OEM high pressure fuel pumps, injectors, water pumps, coolant lines, charge pipes, etc. are much higher quality and never fail. Right?

"On a stock engine this is suicide." ....

Please stop drinking the dealership kool-aid. Aloop lot of the companies that make aftermarket components are also OEM suppliers. It's ridiculous to think that a filter from a reputable company will blow your engine. The fact that you still think it lets larger debris through, much less debris large enough to damage your engine, shows how little you know. Meanwhile the factory engine configuration is shoveling oil vapor into the intake tract to be burned off. But it's just another part of the expensive OEM design, so it must be fine.
These 1950's tech air filters could let dirt in which scored the cylinder walls OR it could simply be an improperly seated filter.

Dealers want to get paid for warranty work so they don't have an incentive to deny work.

Also, they could be under the microscope for performing questionable warranty repairs.
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      11-07-2018, 12:58 AM   #32
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I'm back to preach on.

Does the b58 run lean with just air filter ? Did the valves burn or whatever from being lean? Or did debris get in there?
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      11-07-2018, 05:20 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
Nah you're right. Because more expensive OEM high pressure fuel pumps, injectors, water pumps, coolant lines, charge pipes, etc. are much higher quality and never fail. Right?

"On a stock engine this is suicide." ....

Please stop drinking the dealership kool-aid. A lot of the companies that make aftermarket components are also OEM suppliers. It's ridiculous to think that a filter from a reputable company will blow your engine. The fact that you still think it lets larger debris through, much less debris large enough to damage your engine, shows how little you know. Meanwhile the factory engine configuration is shoveling oil vapor into the intake tract to be burned off. But it's just another part of the expensive OEM design, so it must be fine.
You still don't get it, do you? There are 2 aspects:

Technical
You are perfectly right that the OEM components are not the only ones suitable and sometimes not even the optimal ones to use. But without the knowledge about the technical requirements AND the actual performance of aftermarket parts - it is purely a guessing game. Sometimes the risk is negligible, sometimes not. And please - do not trust brand names and glossy selling brochures in isolation. Take it from an engineer that has seen a lot of contrast between great marketing and actual performance... even from well-established brands.

Legal/Warranty
Although there may be some variations in the laws around the globe, the general rule remains that manufacturers can and would only guarantee for products they have: 1. selected themselves based on a number of factors, of course including tachnical, 2. quality assurance oversight of the suppliers to ensure repeatability, configuration control, material selection and manufacturing techniques remain acceptable. Once you decide to take over that role and start modifying outside the scope of what is formally defined as acceptable - you are on your own with the responsibility all in your pocket and you cannot go crying on the OEM's shoulder to help you. And that is clearly visible in this case as well.

So everyone needs to decide what risk each mod is worth. A fancy air-filter on stock engine, which in reality brings 0 performance gain is IMO definitely not worth all the trouble in this case, irrespective of the end-result. Others may think differently, that's allright. And I am not saying it caused the defect, but it definitely caused the defect not (yet) being repaired under warranty.
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      11-07-2018, 08:32 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
You still don't get it, do you? There are 2 aspects:

Technical
You are perfectly right that the OEM components are not the only ones suitable and sometimes not even the optimal ones to use. But without the knowledge about the technical requirements AND the actual performance of aftermarket parts - it is purely a guessing game. Sometimes the risk is negligible, sometimes not. And please - do not trust brand names and glossy selling brochures in isolation. Take it from an engineer that has seen a lot of contrast between great marketing and actual performance... even from well-established brands.

Legal/Warranty
Although there may be some variations in the laws around the globe, the general rule remains that manufacturers can and would only guarantee for products they have: 1. selected themselves based on a number of factors, of course including tachnical, 2. quality assurance oversight of the suppliers to ensure repeatability, configuration control, material selection and manufacturing techniques remain acceptable. Once you decide to take over that role and start modifying outside the scope of what is formally defined as acceptable - you are on your own with the responsibility all in your pocket and you cannot go crying on the OEM's shoulder to help you. And that is clearly visible in this case as well.

So everyone needs to decide what risk each mod is worth. A fancy air-filter on stock engine, which in reality brings 0 performance gain is IMO definitely not worth all the trouble in this case, irrespective of the end-result. Others may think differently, that's allright. And I am not saying it caused the defect, but it definitely caused the defect not (yet) being repaired under warranty.
Nope, trust me. I 100% get it. I'm an engineer that spent years working in automotive, both at an OEM and at multiple OESs. And as stated previously, I've worked specifically on projects that analyze warranty claims. So I'm not blowing smoke here.

Just as I commented previously, the wording is often misconstrued legally speaking. They cannot deny claims for using OEM equivalent parts. It is illegal for any OEM to force you to pay their prices for replacement parts because, believe it or not, even the legal system believes that it is price gouging. They charge more because they can, not because it's better. Many aftermarket suppliers provide equivalent replacements for 1/2 the cost of OEM or better. Even the OES provides parts to the OEM that are simply repackaged and sold with a markup. All that to say - price has nothing to do with it when determining quality.

HOWEVER, anyone that understands how an engine works understands that the filter did not cause the issue itself. The reason majority of these bolt ons do anything for performance is because they improve engine efficiency. What most people do, i.e. driving around 50k+ miles with clogged oem filters, is way more dangerous when it chokes your engine's supply for air. A damaged filter, sure. Improper installation, ok. But you can't just look at a filter and say it caused an issue that blew your engine because it's an aftermarket cone. It's a cop out on their part. That's it. And to say things like adding an intake is suicide is just ridiculous. You don't needs books of data to understand that. It's common sense.

One of the most frustrating things is being an enthusiast and going into work every day hearing things like that. There is an obvious issue going on, but instead of someone actually trying to find the root cause of the issue, they deny the claim based on fine print or semantics and move on. That's one of the many reasons I'm glad I got out of the industry.
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Last edited by kern417; 11-07-2018 at 08:52 AM.
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      11-07-2018, 09:16 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
They cannot deny claims for using OEM equivalent parts.
Fair enough. Let's now discuss the definition of "OEM equivalent"?
I can easily find 10 reasons why a certain part is not "OEM equivalent", if I want to! A Brochure is not enough for an end-user to claim that. Give me independent lab test reports, give me quality assurance, give me configuration control.

Quote:
It is illegal for any OEM to force you to pay their prices for replacement parts because, believe it or not, even the legal system believes that it is price gouging.
Except that no one is forcing you anything. It is your property - do whatever you want with it (as long as you don't jeoperdise safety of others). You are however encouraged to use approved parts. If you want to rely on warranty that is....

Quote:
They charge more because they can, not because it's better.
True story. This is how business/economy works.

Quote:
Many aftermarket suppliers provide equivalent replacements for 1/2 the cost of OEM or better. Even the OES provides parts to the OEM that are simply repackaged and sold with a markup. All that to say - price has nothing to do with it when determining quality.
Also true. However don't mix quality with assumed responsibility. And quality is a subjective thing when lacking configuration and quality control.

Quote:
HOWEVER, anyone that understands how an engine works understands that the filter did not cause the issue itself. The reason majority of these bolt ons do anything for performance is because they improve engine efficiency.
Not true. The engine efficiency is limited by software, not by air-filters. At least in cars built in the last 2 decades. Plenty of tests prove that a stock engine gets all the air it needs through a stock filter. You can only benefit from an aftermarket filter if your engine air-demand has increased, e.g. tuned engine. Or if the original design was so bad to start with, which is normally not the case.

Quote:
What most people do, i.e. driving around 50k+ miles with clogged oem filters, is way more dangerous when it chokes your engine's supply for air. A damaged filter, sure. Improper installation, ok. But you can't just look at a filter and say it caused an issue that blew your engine because it's an aftermarket cone.
No one is saying that. The Manufacture however is saying, that whoever decided to play engineer should also overtake responsibility for the whole system. You can't e.g. change ECU SW and then claim that this only affects the ECU itself. It is a complete system of components. And since there is an endless variety of aftermarket parts it is not the OEM's task or responsibility to assess their quality and suitability. It is the installer's task, overtaking all responsibility for his actions.

Quote:
It's a cop out on their part. That's it. And to say things like adding an intake is suicide is just ridiculous. You don't needs books of data to understand that. It's common sense.
For a third time - it is a suicide (mainly) from a warranty / trouble perspective, not necessarily from a technical. Evidence available in this thread. And the worse part is - the gain on a stock engine (in comparison to a well-maintained stock filter) is guaranteed 0 (ZERO).

Quote:
One of the most frustrating things is being an enthusiast and going into work every day hearing things like that. There is an obvious issue going on, but instead of someone actually trying to find the root cause of the issue, they deny the claim based on fine print or semantics and move on. That's one of the many reasons I'm glad I got out of the industry.
Where would you draw the line? This one is rather absurd, I agree. What about tuning? What about aftermarket exhausts? What about aftermarket Oil that doesn't fulfil the required spec?
As a minimum, a fair approach would be that if the system is modified in ANY way, the end-user has to carry the entire cost of an (independent) investigation whether the mod has caused or contributed to the failure, irrespective of whether the warranty will be respected or not. Then I feel all parties are fairly treated. And no - I don't work for BMW or any other car manufacturer. And I also like mods and have mods (although less on the engine-side). But I feel people often go too far with silly mods, just because they trust fully what the manufacturer is eager to sell them.
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      11-07-2018, 07:40 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Fair enough. Let's now discuss the definition of "OEM equivalent"?
I can easily find 10 reasons why a certain part is not "OEM equivalent", if I want to! A Brochure is not enough for an end-user to claim that. Give me independent lab test reports, give me quality assurance, give me configuration control.


Except that no one is forcing you anything. It is your property - do whatever you want with it (as long as you don't jeoperdise safety of others). You are however encouraged to use approved parts. If you want to rely on warranty that is....


True story. This is how business/economy works.



Also true. However don't mix quality with assumed responsibility. And quality is a subjective thing when lacking configuration and quality control.


Not true. The engine efficiency is limited by software, not by air-filters. At least in cars built in the last 2 decades. Plenty of tests prove that a stock engine gets all the air it needs through a stock filter. You can only benefit from an aftermarket filter if your engine air-demand has increased, e.g. tuned engine. Or if the original design was so bad to start with, which is normally not the case.


No one is saying that. The Manufacture however is saying, that whoever decided to play engineer should also overtake responsibility for the whole system. You can't e.g. change ECU SW and then claim that this only affects the ECU itself. It is a complete system of components. And since there is an endless variety of aftermarket parts it is not the OEM's task or responsibility to assess their quality and suitability. It is the installer's task, overtaking all responsibility for his actions.


For a third time - it is a suicide (mainly) from a warranty / trouble perspective, not necessarily from a technical. Evidence available in this thread. And the worse part is - the gain on a stock engine (in comparison to a well-maintained stock filter) is guaranteed 0 (ZERO).



Where would you draw the line? This one is rather absurd, I agree. What about tuning? What about aftermarket exhausts? What about aftermarket Oil that doesn't fulfil the required spec?
As a minimum, a fair approach would be that if the system is modified in ANY way, the end-user has to carry the entire cost of an (independent) investigation whether the mod has caused or contributed to the failure, irrespective of whether the warranty will be respected or not. Then I feel all parties are fairly treated. And no - I don't work for BMW or any other car manufacturer. And I also like mods and have mods (although less on the engine-side). But I feel people often go too far with silly mods, just because they trust fully what the manufacturer is eager to sell them.
Not going to get into a technical discussion with you because I'm no where near qualified but I believe you mentioned that you aren't from the US. Due to the law we have in place here the burden of proof is on BMW and not on you to prove that the part you chose isn't up to snuff and caused the issue. Now as kern said they can say whatever they want betting you won't go to court over it since lawyers are expensive and time consuming.
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      11-07-2018, 07:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beek View Post
Lets hear from everyone who has fought a warranty denial to the bitter end which will be in a Court of Law. Won or lost I'd love to hear how the process went, how much time and money you invested and what the outcome was? Dealer/manufacturer has all the power, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have a broken car sitting in their driveway for months or perhaps years that they are making payments on but can't use.
I'm currently in a lemon case for my wife Nissan I'll let you know at the end of the month how it goes as that the final court date.
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      11-07-2018, 08:02 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by jaxon20i View Post
Funny enough I do have Geico with breakdown coverage...and it was the dealer. They told me my car was flagged due to aftermarket modifications and I had no choice but to pay out of pocket for an engine but wouldn't tell me what was wrong with it.
Geico denied your claim because of aftermarket modifications? I called them last year to see if they covered aftermarket modifications and they said yes. There are many people on the Subaru forums who had success with MBI even with aftermarket tunes.
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      11-08-2018, 01:24 AM   #39
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If paying out of pocket you should be allowed to keep the parts. You can then do a possible root cause analysis and then perhaps pursue legal remedies. of course this will all be out of pocket unless you win.

One time I ran into some valve problems on my Honda which was under warranty and the dealer was not going to warrantee the car. This model had quite a bit a valve problems on the forums. I told the deelor that was OK and that I would bring the car elsewhere and have it repaired and then I would take valves and have them analyzed. I explained exactly who and how and where it would be analyzed. I asked the dealer to forward that information to HQ and they called me the next day and told me they would fix the car under warrantee and that I would not be allowed to keep the parts.

My worry is that is not the case here. My money is the car for whatever reason runs lean with just the intake. Maybe there was air leak. Did the OP ever data log ???

There was another member on here that blew a b58 with the downpipe only.
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      11-08-2018, 11:26 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Fair enough. Let's now discuss the definition of "OEM equivalent"?
I can easily find 10 reasons why a certain part is not "OEM equivalent", if I want to! A Brochure is not enough for an end-user to claim that. Give me independent lab test reports, give me quality assurance, give me configuration control.
OEM equivalent means the OEM provided a part number and specification, and the company makes the part. That's why you can google a part number and find the OEM part, OES part, and other equivalent replacements. If you need documentation to prove it's equivalent then I don't know how you even function day to day. You don't have any documentation proving that the gas you pump is the right octane rating, or even that your clothes are 100% cotton. It's just how things work, and the opposite is an anomaly not an expectation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Except that no one is forcing you anything. It is your property - do whatever you want with it (as long as you don't jeoperdise safety of others). You are however encouraged to use approved parts. If you want to rely on warranty that is....
Forcing you to use their parts *in order to maintain warranty.* So I don't have to buy replacement components from the dealership to maintain my warranty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post

Also true. However don't mix quality with assumed responsibility. And quality is a subjective thing when lacking configuration and quality control.
Quality is not subjective. You meet the requirements for process capability and/or individual component inspection that the OEM defines. It's pretty standard across the board and easy to quantify thanks to Six Sigma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Not true. The engine efficiency is limited by software, not by air-filters. At least in cars built in the last 2 decades. Plenty of tests prove that a stock engine gets all the air it needs through a stock filter. You can only benefit from an aftermarket filter if your engine air-demand has increased, e.g. tuned engine. Or if the original design was so bad to start with, which is normally not the case.
Intake and exhaust design are deliberately designed to be restrictive in favor of reduced NVH and improved emissions. Also a lot of times packaging and cost plays a factor. That's why an intake an downpipe without a tune may not net a peak hp gain, but it can fill in the gaps, decrease spool time, and extend how long you can hold boost before it drops off. The fact that your car makes more power on cool days due to increased density shows that your car can pretty much always accept more air. It's all a matter of how much you shove into the air box and how much flow you allow to the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
No one is saying that. The Manufacture however is saying, that whoever decided to play engineer should also overtake responsibility for the whole system. You can't e.g. change ECU SW and then claim that this only affects the ECU itself. It is a complete system of components. And since there is an endless variety of aftermarket parts it is not the OEM's task or responsibility to assess their quality and suitability. It is the installer's task, overtaking all responsibility for his actions.


For a third time - it is a suicide (mainly) from a warranty / trouble perspective, not necessarily from a technical. Evidence available in this thread. And the worse part is - the gain on a stock engine (in comparison to a well-maintained stock filter) is guaranteed 0 (ZERO).
the problem with your thinking is a warranty is offered specifically because, not matter what, problems happen. It's a catch-all to say we won't repair issues caused by you. despite all the technicalities that OEM's use to cover themselves, they still have warranty claims issued every day. So it's less of a failsafe and more of a crutch. Because we all know they have problems with or without aftermarket parts being installed.

So regardless, the OEM should be responsible when the issue is likely caused by something other than aftermarket parts. Which is why I said we all know that the intake didn't cause it. If they did the same diagnostic work that they would on a stock car to minimize their repairs and effort, maybe they'd be able to tell OP more than "your engine needs to be replaced" with no other explanation. But like I said, I've seen how it works both at the dealer and corporate level so I expect no less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Where would you draw the line? This one is rather absurd, I agree. What about tuning? What about aftermarket exhausts? What about aftermarket Oil that doesn't fulfil the required spec?
As a minimum, a fair approach would be that if the system is modified in ANY way, the end-user has to carry the entire cost of an (independent) investigation whether the mod has caused or contributed to the failure, irrespective of whether the warranty will be respected or not. Then I feel all parties are fairly treated. And no - I don't work for BMW or any other car manufacturer. And I also like mods and have mods (although less on the engine-side). But I feel people often go too far with silly mods, just because they trust fully what the manufacturer is eager to sell them.
All you need to do is fine the root cause like you would do for your own car. If there's a hole in the intake filter, then yes it could cause larger debris to enter. But there are a myriad of tests that can be done to diagnose what's wrong with a car, and often times techs don't use them. It's all what the book (or now computer) says to do.

A few things to consider:

- A lot of people run more oil than specified and with different weights at the track to protect the car.
- A lot of people run aftermarket brake fluids for track purposes so it can handle the workload.
- A lot of tunes and bolt ons help the car run safer and would be more reliable than the OEM tunes (lower AFR, less timing correction, cooler IATs, etc.)
- Aftermarket companies come out with repairs for items that later get recalled before the OEM even admits something is messed up
- OEMs will push dealers to look for aftermarket components and other outside factors when they see common issues to reduce the need for recalls and reduce the number of reported claims so consumer reports look better.

So yeah, there's a lot that could be done. It's not in the OEMs best interest financially, and the dealer gets paid either way, so it's typically not done. But I guarantee if it was the techs own personal car they'd get to the bottom of it.
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      11-09-2018, 04:37 AM   #41
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OEM equivalent means the OEM provided a part number and specification, and the company makes the part. That's why you can google a part number and find the OEM part, OES part, and other equivalent replacements.
Thanks for the clarification. 2 things:
1. Who is entitled to claim that his product is "OEM equivalent" and based on what? May I sell you a Kia and write in the nice, glossy brochure with the professional photos, conveniently tweaked curves and sexy ladies posing that it is "equivalent" to your BMW? Both have 4 wheels, steering wheel, seats - both fulfil the basic definition of a car, right...?

2. (to get back on topic) - can you please show me where it is claimed that a BMS Intake is "OEM equivalent"? I would really, really love to see that statement! If it exists (which I seriously doubt), it will answer question 1 above....

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If you need documentation to prove it's equivalent then I don't know how you even function day to day. You don't have any documentation proving that the gas you pump is the right octane rating, or even that your clothes are 100% cotton. It's just how things work, and the opposite is an anomaly not an expectation.
You are getting it all wrong.... I don't need anything but I am also not lame to believe everything in this world, just "because it is on the internet, it must be right".
If I am representing the manufacturer and you bring me a car that is damaged because you put diesel in, guess if I will honour the warranty!? I will send you back to the gas station to clarify whether you made a mistake or they did. But either case - I am not taking the cost.
It is all about WHO takes the responsibility, not only about the technical aspect.
Simple facts of life.
Sometimes it is wiser to retain a stock item even if it is believed to be suboptimal, just to have the responsibility where you would rather have it! That's all I am saying.


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Forcing you to use their parts *in order to maintain warranty.* So I don't have to buy replacement components from the dealership to maintain my warranty.
No you don't. As long as you buy approved parts - you can buy them from anywhere. This said, sometimes the only approved part is the stock one. If you decide to be an engineer, be the warranty as well.


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Quality is not subjective. You meet the requirements for process capability and/or individual component inspection that the OEM defines. It's pretty standard across the board and easy to quantify thanks to Six Sigma.
To meet "requirements", those requirements first need to be known (and very often they are IP-protected and not public domain)! Compliance with them thereafter needs to be verified. And then there needs to be a process to ensure that each further manufactured item will maintain the same quality. (whereas the quality assurance system also needs auditing and approval). A sentence in a glossy brochure is called marketing, not compliance! A well-known brand usually gives confidence that the above things are in place, but is by no means sufficient. There was a hilarious example from my experience where a well-known manufacturer claimed that his product "typically features .... (x, y, z features)". When confronted with the fact that when tested on the bench it actually doesn't, they came back with an answer "Yes, but we wrote "typically"... it is not a guaranteed functionality" : There you go...


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Intake and exhaust design are deliberately designed to be restrictive in favor of reduced NVH and improved emissions. Also a lot of times packaging and cost plays a factor. That's why an intake an downpipe without a tune may not net a peak hp gain, but it can fill in the gaps, decrease spool time, and extend how long you can hold boost before it drops off. The fact that your car makes more power on cool days due to increased density shows that your car can pretty much always accept more air. It's all a matter of how much you shove into the air box and how much flow you allow to the engine.
I don't know your age and experience, but you are obviously stuck in the 80s... I started to explain how things really work nowadays, but it would be a very long post (which it is already). I strongly recommend you to start with some youtube videos where they collect empirical data on modern vehicles. I can only repeat my statement - A sport filter on a stock engine brings 0 performance advantages in most cases (in comparison to a stock filter in good shape). Only noise and placebo. If the engine is tuned - different story (possibly but not necessarily!).

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the problem with your thinking is a warranty is offered specifically because, not matter what, problems happen. It's a catch-all to say we won't repair issues caused by you. despite all the technicalities that OEM's use to cover themselves, they still have warranty claims issued every day. So it's less of a failsafe and more of a crutch. Because we all know they have problems with or without aftermarket parts being installed.

So regardless, the OEM should be responsible when the issue is likely caused by something other than aftermarket parts. Which is why I said we all know that the intake didn't cause it. If they did the same diagnostic work that they would on a stock car to minimize their repairs and effort, maybe they'd be able to tell OP more than "your engine needs to be replaced" with no other explanation. But like I said, I've seen how it works both at the dealer and corporate level so I expect no less.

All you need to do is fine the root cause like you would do for your own car. If there's a hole in the intake filter, then yes it could cause larger debris to enter. But there are a myriad of tests that can be done to diagnose what's wrong with a car, and often times techs don't use them. It's all what the book (or now computer) says to do.
I agree. I however disagree with the fact that you seem to think it should be the manufacturer's own investment to go and do root-cause analysis every time someone decides to play engineer (because the brochure of the chinese manufacturer had nice pictures and in bad english stated it is OEM-equivalent).
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      11-09-2018, 02:20 PM   #42
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Man you have no idea what you're talking about. That's why all you can do is pose questions. I told you I worked for an OEM and handled warranty claims. So you can take what I'm saying or continue trying to make up possibilities of what could be. What I'm stating are facts.

OEM equivalent means there is a spec for the part, and it meets the spec. You cannot sell a part with an OEM part number without it meeting the spec. It's illegal, and if they catch you doing it they can sue you. Most parts have multiple suppliers to the OEM, so if you order replacement rotors from BMW USA it's most likely made by a different supplier than the one that supplies the exact same rotors to BMW Europe. Often times they also split high volume components (like intake filters) just due to capacity constraints at individual suppliers. But it's all controlled by the OEM's quality and legal systems. Again, it's pretty simple and a lot of people focus on just those details every day.

And for the last time, i never said BMS intake is oem equivalent. I said that it did not cause the issue to OP's motor. As in, statistically speaking, the chances of it coming from the intake are little to none.

The reason an OEM should investigate an issue is because it is often times the fault of the factory design or quality issues from the plant. Again, they have warranty claims every day. They don't have crate engines for sale for no reason. These parts are manufactured and ordered by the OEM because they will need to use them for service, even on an engine that's only been sold for 3 years. When you don't investigate an issue, you leave a significant risk on the table. You leave the opportunity for more failures to occur with less time to investigate and fix it, which affects your quality numbers. I can't tell you how many times i read service reports where techs just try replacing components, or identify a repair that seemingly has no correlation to the customers concern. And those were always the cars that came back with the same issue a few weeks later.

I don't need to watch youtube videos to understand any of this, and I'm sorry you think getting your info from youtube makes you an expert. I spent years working on cars from a birds-eye view all day and under my own car all night. It's not rocket science. And yes, cars have restrictive intakes and exhausts. You can visit any track day and see the most common mods are intakes and cat deletes or high flow cats to make the car breathe easier and rev more freely. And you can log your own car to see the same performance benefits. MAF readings increase, IATs decrease, etc.

You said you're an engineer. This is all literally engineering 101. Except I actually have experience and you just have a bunch of questions. Maybe if OEMs were more ready to train their workforce and use proper diagnostic techniques, we'd have less recalls, faster repair times, and less repeat issues. Even the OP made multiple visits for the same issue. It's a more common trend than a lot of people realize. But that could be it's own topic in itself.
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      11-09-2018, 02:51 PM   #43
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It's fun watching you guys.

However, I think what started this is the dealer denying warranty for engine damage because as they claimed the owner had a pod filter.

I doubt the pod filter the owner had meets the requirement you mentioned.

"OEM equivalent means there is a spec for the part, and it meets the spec. You cannot sell a part with an OEM part number without it meeting the spec. It's illegal, and if they catch you doing it they can sue you."
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      11-09-2018, 09:25 PM   #44
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If i remember correctly some guy took in his heavily modded B58 with JB4, water-meth, etc, etc and they blamed all those parts for the failure.... they come to find out the injector failed after further investigation which caused the cylinder to fail. I mean i don't think water-meth would harm the engine if anything it helps it in every way possible... help keep the intake valves clean, keep the IAT low, good octane bump, and of course the M4 GTS has water injection

I just don't understand how a intake can cause the engine to fail and misfire lmao.
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