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      12-13-2018, 06:49 PM   #23
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450 kW is some serious power for batteries to take. (at least with today's Li batteries)

Just think about putting that kind of charger everywhere like gas station.

Whole city needs new electric power grid.
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      12-13-2018, 06:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Good for you baby.

But, like you or not, development will continue to be made, and that will make electric cars feasible for more people who actually use their cars, and hopefully will not necessitate having an ICE anymore.
Fair point. I think we’re on the same page actually.
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      12-13-2018, 08:05 PM   #25
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{Trolling removed}
Guess you missed the part about 20 new GM EVs by 2023 and 2 new EVs in about 10 months, oh and the first sub $40K 230+ mile EV launched over 18 months ago.

Minor points...
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      12-13-2018, 08:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TajoMan View Post
450 kW is some serious power for batteries to take. (at least with today's Li batteries)

Just think about putting that kind of charger everywhere like gas station.

Whole city needs new electric power grid.
I'd like to know the cost per kilowatt too.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-13-2018 at 08:29 PM..
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      12-13-2018, 08:50 PM   #27
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Guess you missed the part about 20 new GM EVs by 2023 and 2 new EVs in about 10 months...
That's simply a story. We'll have to wait and see what really happens.
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      12-13-2018, 08:53 PM   #28
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      12-14-2018, 03:22 AM   #29
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This is not really relevant for both parties - not the commuters and especially not the "road-trip" guys.

Commuter: has an average of, lets say 40 miles per day. Can charge his car every night at home or at the office, so it does not make sense for him that he can charge in 3 minutes

Road-Trip or Business trip: has an average of 300 miles and has to stop to "fill up". You need one minute at a gas station and still a lot of time even with this new "method". 3 minutes for 100km is nothing. It still needs around 15 minutes to charge it for like 300 miles.

Where is the benefit? If you are traveling for 100 miles with an electric vehicle, I am pretty sure it's already fully loaded. And for a longer road-trip you have to charge up for 20 minutes during the stop anyway.
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      12-14-2018, 03:46 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by eau_rouge View Post
This is not really relevant for both parties - not the commuters and especially not the "road-trip" guys.

Commuter: has an average of, lets say 40 miles per day. Can charge his car every night at home or at the office, so it does not make sense for him that he can charge in 3 minutes

Road-Trip or Business trip: has an average of 300 miles and has to stop to "fill up". You need one minute at a gas station and still a lot of time even with this new "method". 3 minutes for 100km is nothing. It still needs around 15 minutes to charge it for like 300 miles.

Where is the benefit? If you are traveling for 100 miles with an electric vehicle, I am pretty sure it's already fully loaded. And for a longer road-trip you have to charge up for 20 minutes during the stop anyway.
Yes. And BTW the press release says its 3 mins for the first 100kms of range. The rate of charge will get slower as the battery fills up.
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      12-14-2018, 04:29 AM   #31
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Now only if BMW can make a 250 mile range i3...
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      12-14-2018, 04:32 AM   #32
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      12-14-2018, 04:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michal12 View Post
Yes. And BTW the press release says its 3 mins for the first 100kms of range. The rate of charge will get slower as the battery fills up.
The first and last 10% takes more time, in between it's the same speed more or less.
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      12-14-2018, 08:23 AM   #34
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People don't get it.

One of the great things about having an EV for my daily driver is I don't have to STOP for ANYTHING! With 250 miles of daily range, I don't have to stop to charge and I certainly don't have to stop for gas. I just unplug the car in the morning and plug it back in at night. Done.

My family has been using an EV as our daily driver for about 5 years now. (We are on our 3rd EV). I don't have any idea where there is a public charging station cause I've NEVER needed or wanted to use one. The only time I find out what gas (diesel) prices are is the few times each year we take my truck for long road trips... (The truck also pulls my M4 race car trailer)

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I wonder who is so busy trying to tell everyone that we need more public chargers to really make this "EV thing" work? Over 70% of EV owners charge at home.

I also fully understand that an EV is not going to work for everyone, but most families have 2+ cars so its likely 1 of them could be an EV. As range improves, it becomes a more realistic option for more people. I'm not driving an EV because its good for the environment, I'm driving an EV because its much more convenient for me. We really like not having to stop for gas (or charging)!

I also understand that some people rent their homes and apartments so installing a charger may not be possible or practical. But like having a dishwasher, this kind of feature will likely become much more of a standard offering as time goes by. Particularly as more people adopt EV's as their primary driver....

Besides home, the other really good opportunity to charge would be at work. We have been talking about putting in a couple of charging stations for our employees (even though I'm the only one with an EV and I don't really need it). Its all about the future. While I can meet my daily charging needs overnight at home, other people might more conveniently be able to do this during the day while they are at work (particularly if they live in an apartment, etc).

Point is, with the ranges we have had available for several years now (200+ miles), so many more folks certainly have the option of using an EV as their daily driver and never have to worry about public charging at all.

...and Rivian will be releasing a pickup truck and SUV next year with 400+ miles range! https://products.rivian.com/. Things are only getting better!
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      12-14-2018, 08:42 AM   #35
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I would think these future fast chargers would have to be hooked up to some huge reserve cells/capacities (either batteries or capacitors) that buildup more slowly over time (say during the night and when not in use) and then discharge during the day. Companies would pay a cheaper rate during "off" times and then charge higher during daylight and this would avoid stressing the electrical grid.

But yeah, most people (>90%) would charge their EVs at home. Getting an EV means getting a gas station at home and refilling everyday. There's already wireless charging tech which means in the future people will probably never forget to leave their house with less than a full "tank" either. For city folk, EVs are going to make more and more sense until it doesn't make sense to buy ICE anymore. Fast approaching since ICE has basically been overdeveloped over decades to the point where there's only minor technological jumps whereas batteries tech is nowhere near the ceiling yet and tech will continue to improve; basically much more feasible to see production 1000+ mile EVs with fast charging and 3 sec 0-60 times then it is to see an ICE with 100mpg with 3 sec 0-60 times in the future.
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      12-14-2018, 09:47 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanevery View Post
The worries about the availability (and performance) of the public charging infrastructure are largely a non-issue that non-EV users have been lobbied to worry about.

Over 70% of all EV users charge at home.

I'm on my third EV (inc an i8) and for the past 5 years or so an EV has been the daily driver for our family. In all that time I've never even SEEN a public charging station much less used one.

I know this is NOT the case for ALL EV drivers, but the vast majority just plug their cars in at home and let them charge overnight (just like a cell phone). I don't give a crap about the public charging infrastructure cause I'm not taking any road trips over 200 miles in my EV that require me to stop often or for long periods. We have an ICE powered car for that. (Most families have 2+ cars and one car can likely be an EV).

Who the hell is going to stop every 62 miles to charge their car? 200+ miles range is where its at...
You should see the Teslas on a Friday night at all the stops from LA to Mammoth...it's pandemonium!
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      12-14-2018, 09:55 AM   #37
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      12-14-2018, 10:03 AM   #38
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High-speed EV recharging stations on highways sound great – until you hear how much $

https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/mo...ng-gas-engines

Anyone who tells you that the electric car in your future will be just as convenient as the gasoline-fueled vehicle you’re currently driving is lying. If not overtly, then at least by omission. Nor can they plead ignorance, the calculations required to reach this conclusion hardly the stuff of graduate-level physics. Indeed, judging from the experts I’ve spoken with, plenty have been the warnings proffered to the politicians, policy makers and futurists advocating an all-battery-powered future.

Now before you go all Tesla on me and start putting angry pen to paper, let me give credit where credit is due. In an emissions-free automotive world, the electric vehicle is king of the inner-city commute: the ability to recharge at home — during off-hours, minimizing the load on our grids — is convenient, their torquey motors perfect for the point and shoot of inner-city traffic, and their range more than what is needed by 90 per cent of commuters. I also trust that battery technology will get lighter and more energy dense so the 100+ kilowatt-hour batteries of the future won’t all weigh a thousand pounds. Nor is the tired old bugbear — “all that electricity is being generated by coal” — likely to be a problem in 20 or 30 years, the cost of renewables hopefully coming down to a manageable level.

Instead, the problem for our all-electric future (now California is said to be following France and England’s banning of the internal combustion engine) is power transmission. More specifically, as one industry expert summed up the situation, “the bottleneck [clouding the future of the electric vehicle] is local distribution.” That bottleneck is going to be the highway service stations that will be required to service our 300 million now-electric cars for longer trips when we don’t have access to the convenience of our home chargers.

Consider the following scenario: last Labour Day weekend, like so many holiday weekends, pretty much every fuel pump on the side of Ontario’s 401 was, er, pumping non-stop. That, for anyone thinking of following along with my calculus, is a station every 80 kilometres, each with up to 16 pumps. More importantly, each of those is capable of pumping about 30 litres of gasoline in a minute. In other words, discounting credit card transaction and unscrewing of gas cap, even the most ardent gas-guzzler can take in enough fossil fuel for 500 kilometres of driving in about two minutes.

But consider this: an EV that can guarantee 500 klicks requires at least 100 kilowatt-hours of battery. Do the math and a similar two-minute recharge would require three megawatts. That, for those who don’t have an electrical engineering degree, is 3,000 kilowatts.

Now for some perspective: current fast chargers boast about 50kW. Yes, essentially 1/60th of the charging capacity required to match the refueling rate of an everyday gas-powered car. If you’re reaching for your calculator, I’ll save you the trouble: Serving the same number of cars could theoretically require as many as 960 charging stations (and they’d still have to sit there for two hours to fully charge).

But isn’t Porsche promising a 20-minute charge for 400 kilometres of range, you ask? Doesn’t that mean we’ll soon see EVs capable of matching those two-minute recharges?

Well, yes, Porsche is making just such a promise. Unfortunately, however, that would seem to be the practical limit of how fast we’re going to be able to recharge these electrical behemoths. Indeed, The 350kW rechargers required for those promised 20-minute refueling is, according to the experts I spoke with, likely the upper limit of the equipment we humans will ever be allowed to handle. In fact, these 350kW rechargers generate so much heat, their amperage is so incredibly high, that the cables carrying all that current need to be liquid cooled. And anything that can recharge our batteries faster than 20 minutes will have to be automated, i.e., phantasmagorically expensive.

How expensive? As I mentioned, you’ll need about 60 50kW rechargers to replace one fuel pump; about eight of the 350kW variety for every pump. That, as I mentioned, would mean 960 of the low-powered 50kW units at each rest stop and 128 of the high-tech 350kW versions. Have I mentioned that even those low-powered 50kW fast chargers cost about $40,000 apiece? One of those faster-charging 350kW items? About two hundred large. Faster-charging automated versions would cost upward of a half-million each.

Even a more conservative estimate taxes one’s calculator. Factoring in the aforementioned credit card transaction and washing of windshield that might extend gasoline refueling to five minutes, it would still require 600 of those 50kW chargers for a roadside station to service the 2,000 cars those gas pumps could service in a busy 12-hour period. Even that conservative estimate would require a $24-million investment just for the cheapest rechargers.

They’d also need about 30 megawatts of power. For those thinking that’s a sh%$-load of electricity, you’re right. Thirty megawatts, for perspective, is enough to power about 20,000 homes. In other words, powering these service stations of the future will require about the same amount of electricity as a city of 75,000. Oh, and by the way, all that electricity, unlike off-hour home recharging, happens during peak-usage daylight hours.

In other words, all that extra power, at least for intra-city travel, will have to come from new — not existing — sources. At the most optimistic prices posited for the future cost of solar panels — about a buck a watt — that’s another $30 million. If you want to go the windmill route, you’ll need 10 of them, each costing roughly $4 million. Just as further reminder, that’s for each and every roadside station. And for those thinking there may be some breakthrough in the future that will allow faster recharging, know that while battery technology is in its infancy, electricity generation is a mature technology and the laws of power transmission are likely to remain pretty much immutable.

Lastly, I’d like to mention that so outrageous were the numbers these calculations generated I felt obliged to contact numerous experts in the field to check my calculus. To a person, these experts — infrastructure engineers, EV prototype designers and the heads of entire EV programs — didn’t know how, indeed if, the problem of recharging an entire fleet of battery-powered cars could be solved. Most said that some form of range extension would be a far more practical solution.

So I will ask the same question I raised in the first part of this inconvenient truth series: If we can reduce 75 per cent of greenhouse gas emissions by banning gasoline in urban centres, but allowing internal combusting for inter-city travel (as is possible today with extended-range EVs), why, again, are we going through the trials and tribulations of rebuilding a refueling infrastructure that already serves us so well?
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      12-14-2018, 10:05 AM   #39
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If this was consumer grade and ready that would be some serious news. Too soon. Not ready.
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      12-14-2018, 10:06 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRAU GRAU View Post
You should see the Teslas on a Friday night at all the stops from LA to Mammoth...it's pandemonium!
Supercharger rage: https://twitter.com/jaydenolson1/sta...364672?lang=en
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      12-14-2018, 10:37 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonchicken View Post
This is so overblown hype. When you have a full charge everyday, it is so rare that you need to charge out and about. We've got 300 mile range everyday today. Not in 5 years or 3 years or however long this is going to take to roll out. And yes, when I drive it, it's more like 200 miles per charge. But that range is available every single day.
Yes, road trips are overblown hypes.

I hope you really like your city and its boundaries.
This.
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      12-14-2018, 10:45 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/mo...ng-gas-engines

Anyone who tells you that the electric car in your future will be just as convenient as the gasoline-fueled vehicle you’re currently driving is lying. If not overtly, then at least by omission. Nor can they plead ignorance, the calculations required to reach this conclusion hardly the stuff of graduate-level physics. Indeed, judging from the experts I’ve spoken with, plenty have been the warnings proffered to the politicians, policy makers and futurists advocating an all-battery-powered future.

Now before you go all Tesla on me and start putting angry pen to paper, let me give credit where credit is due. In an emissions-free automotive world, the electric vehicle is king of the inner-city commute: the ability to recharge at home — during off-hours, minimizing the load on our grids — is convenient, their torquey motors perfect for the point and shoot of inner-city traffic, and their range more than what is needed by 90 per cent of commuters. I also trust that battery technology will get lighter and more energy dense so the 100+ kilowatt-hour batteries of the future won’t all weigh a thousand pounds. Nor is the tired old bugbear — “all that electricity is being generated by coal” — likely to be a problem in 20 or 30 years, the cost of renewables hopefully coming down to a manageable level.

Instead, the problem for our all-electric future (now California is said to be following France and England’s banning of the internal combustion engine) is power transmission. More specifically, as one industry expert summed up the situation, “the bottleneck [clouding the future of the electric vehicle] is local distribution.” That bottleneck is going to be the highway service stations that will be required to service our 300 million now-electric cars for longer trips when we don’t have access to the convenience of our home chargers.

Consider the following scenario: last Labour Day weekend, like so many holiday weekends, pretty much every fuel pump on the side of Ontario’s 401 was, er, pumping non-stop. That, for anyone thinking of following along with my calculus, is a station every 80 kilometres, each with up to 16 pumps. More importantly, each of those is capable of pumping about 30 litres of gasoline in a minute. In other words, discounting credit card transaction and unscrewing of gas cap, even the most ardent gas-guzzler can take in enough fossil fuel for 500 kilometres of driving in about two minutes.

But consider this: an EV that can guarantee 500 klicks requires at least 100 kilowatt-hours of battery. Do the math and a similar two-minute recharge would require three megawatts. That, for those who don’t have an electrical engineering degree, is 3,000 kilowatts.

Now for some perspective: current fast chargers boast about 50kW. Yes, essentially 1/60th of the charging capacity required to match the refueling rate of an everyday gas-powered car. If you’re reaching for your calculator, I’ll save you the trouble: Serving the same number of cars could theoretically require as many as 960 charging stations (and they’d still have to sit there for two hours to fully charge).

But isn’t Porsche promising a 20-minute charge for 400 kilometres of range, you ask? Doesn’t that mean we’ll soon see EVs capable of matching those two-minute recharges?

Well, yes, Porsche is making just such a promise. Unfortunately, however, that would seem to be the practical limit of how fast we’re going to be able to recharge these electrical behemoths. Indeed, The 350kW rechargers required for those promised 20-minute refueling is, according to the experts I spoke with, likely the upper limit of the equipment we humans will ever be allowed to handle. In fact, these 350kW rechargers generate so much heat, their amperage is so incredibly high, that the cables carrying all that current need to be liquid cooled. And anything that can recharge our batteries faster than 20 minutes will have to be automated, i.e., phantasmagorically expensive.

How expensive? As I mentioned, you’ll need about 60 50kW rechargers to replace one fuel pump; about eight of the 350kW variety for every pump. That, as I mentioned, would mean 960 of the low-powered 50kW units at each rest stop and 128 of the high-tech 350kW versions. Have I mentioned that even those low-powered 50kW fast chargers cost about $40,000 apiece? One of those faster-charging 350kW items? About two hundred large. Faster-charging automated versions would cost upward of a half-million each.

Even a more conservative estimate taxes one’s calculator. Factoring in the aforementioned credit card transaction and washing of windshield that might extend gasoline refueling to five minutes, it would still require 600 of those 50kW chargers for a roadside station to service the 2,000 cars those gas pumps could service in a busy 12-hour period. Even that conservative estimate would require a $24-million investment just for the cheapest rechargers.

They’d also need about 30 megawatts of power. For those thinking that’s a sh%$-load of electricity, you’re right. Thirty megawatts, for perspective, is enough to power about 20,000 homes. In other words, powering these service stations of the future will require about the same amount of electricity as a city of 75,000. Oh, and by the way, all that electricity, unlike off-hour home recharging, happens during peak-usage daylight hours.

In other words, all that extra power, at least for intra-city travel, will have to come from new — not existing — sources. At the most optimistic prices posited for the future cost of solar panels — about a buck a watt — that’s another $30 million. If you want to go the windmill route, you’ll need 10 of them, each costing roughly $4 million. Just as further reminder, that’s for each and every roadside station. And for those thinking there may be some breakthrough in the future that will allow faster recharging, know that while battery technology is in its infancy, electricity generation is a mature technology and the laws of power transmission are likely to remain pretty much immutable.

Lastly, I’d like to mention that so outrageous were the numbers these calculations generated I felt obliged to contact numerous experts in the field to check my calculus. To a person, these experts — infrastructure engineers, EV prototype designers and the heads of entire EV programs — didn’t know how, indeed if, the problem of recharging an entire fleet of battery-powered cars could be solved. Most said that some form of range extension would be a far more practical solution.

So I will ask the same question I raised in the first part of this inconvenient truth series: If we can reduce 75 per cent of greenhouse gas emissions by banning gasoline in urban centres, but allowing internal combusting for inter-city travel (as is possible today with extended-range EVs), why, again, are we going through the trials and tribulations of rebuilding a refueling infrastructure that already serves us so well?
In a utopian progressive world people would use some form of public transportation between metropolitian areas and then rent an EV at their destination like they already do in their hometown.
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      12-14-2018, 11:05 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by greekcs View Post
3 Phase service for everyone!!!!
A high capacity Level 2 charger draws 32-40A from 2-phase service...

So, no....
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      12-14-2018, 11:15 AM   #44
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Location: Wisconsin

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/mo...ng-gas-engines

Anyone who tells you that the electric car in your future will be just as convenient as the gasoline-fueled vehicle you’re currently driving is lying...

{snip}

why, again, are we going through the trials and tribulations of rebuilding a refueling infrastructure that already serves us so well?
It is MORE convenient. I've been doing it for 5 years. I do it SPECIFICALLY because it is much more convenient. I unplug the car when I leave in the morning and I plug it back in when I get home in the evening. Are you calling me a liar?

We have rebuilt lots of stuff in our infrastructure because "PROGRESS". We have rebuilt our electrical transmissions systems numerous time (or do you still have fuses instead of breakers, or cotton insulated wires in YOUR house?) We have changed our television transmission systems (analog to digital), cell phone transmission systems (CDMA/TDMA to GSM), Radio broadcast systems (AM/FM to Satellite), Navigation (Maps to GPS), Fuel (Corn/Oats to Gasoline to Electric), and so many other systems in the name of PROGRESS.

NETFLIX "served us so well" when they mailed us DVD's - now they have changed their delivery system to streaming. See? PROGRESS.

PROGRESS because it is more convenient, flexible, functional, reliable, cheaper, or better for the planet.

I can effectively run my EV on Solar Power, Wind Power, Geothermal, Nuclear, etc. You simply don't have that option with an ICE.

I'm curious what the source of your Rant is and what agenda its trying to bolster. I've been running EV's for 5 years quite simply cause its much more convenient. All the rest (saving the planet, etc) is just gravy...

Get over it.

Last edited by evanevery; 12-14-2018 at 11:37 AM..
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