F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos > Richer Americans Are Skipping SUVs for Station Wagons
GetBMWParts
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-10-2019, 12:07 PM   #23
alex2364
Major
alex2364's Avatar
United_States
526
Rep
1,249
Posts

Drives: 2017 M4 ZCP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Northern VA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2017 BMW M4  [0.00]
The market share of wagons has gone down compared to previous years. Overall sales are up but the market has expanded and sales haven't kept up.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...share-falling/
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2019, 12:12 PM   #24
mose121
Humanist
mose121's Avatar
United_States
108
Rep
328
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 ZCP/F31 330i M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Pittsburgh

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mose121 View Post
And what percentage are 3GT/5GT/X4/X6/6 Series sales?
I'm talking about vehicle types, not individual models. There will always be a handful of specific models that do not sell well, but they keep producing for various reasons. The same goes for pretty much any manufacture of cars. A lot of which is just due to the fact they're extremely similar to another model (all the GT's for example), and are relatively cheap to produce in a plant that already has the tooling for their counterparts.

The X series, for example, is largely manufactured inside the US, so even if the X4, and X6 are not selling, they can continue to make them as there are no import concerns.
You are actually making my point. The wagon is built on the exact same platform as the standard 3 series, and is therefore very easy and cheaper to produce alongside the standard 3 series. Plus, they're still going to be producing wagons for many other markets and there is very little that would have to be done to keep selling sell them in the U.S. The 3GT is built on a modified Chinese market only long wheel base 3 series platform, as such it costs more to produce, requires more extensive crash testing than the wagon would, it sold terribly, and is being killed off completely for good reason. The viability of 3 series wagon sales vs models like the X4 would be easier to determine if BMW actually told us how many wagons they sold, but they just lump them in with all 3 series models so we don't know how many were actually sold here. Regardless, if they just put in a small effort it would be easy to keep bringing the wagons over. The mid 2000's shift to a volume sales business model was supposed to support lower volume models that true BMW enthusiasts want them to build. And those models are not ones like the 3GT/5GT/X2/X4. I don't know a single BMW enthusiast that would buy any of those models for themselves.
__________________
'19 F31 M Sport Estoril Blue : '16 F80 M3 ZCP Mineral Grey : '15 E84 X1 M Sport Le Mans Blue : '13 E92 M3 ZCP Alpine White
'10 E82 135i M Sport Le Mans Blue : '99 E46 328i Sport Fern Green : '95 E36 M3 Cosmos Schwartz : '95 E36/5 318ti Clubsport Jet Black
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2019, 12:22 PM   #25
JamesNoBrakes
Lieutenant Colonel
726
Rep
1,622
Posts

Drives: 428i xdrive GC
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Chicks dig SUVs. Families think they need SUVs. Short people love SUVs. SUVs are even more ergonomic for ease of entry-exit. They are not for driving excitement though, if that is your priority. With a wagon, you can give up nothing to sedans or similar cars and basically have your cake and eat it too. Far more practical than sedans and coupes. Everyone thinks they drive the rubicon in their SUVs, while automakers make them lower and give more ground-effects to increase mileage.

The reality is that those of us that are willing to buy wagons are such a small population that it would never make any sense to import them. This thread is way way overblowing the demand, SUVs crush it every day and sunday. If they imported an M550 wagon, I'd have it. Since they've all dropped the ball, there is no CTS-V wagon, etc., I just got a badass track car instead...but I really wanted a good wagon. The stinger/440 GC style give a little glimmer of hope, but not enough in both the performance and utility areas. The lone wolf is the AMG E63, but that was just slightly out of my reach, I definitely wouldn't have been able to afford multiple vehicles and I wanted to make sure I had an "out" if things went bad.
__________________
Dinan Shockware, Dinan F3x Swaybars, ACS Springs
Appreciate 1
Germanauto2505.50

      01-10-2019, 02:11 PM   #26
FaRKle!
Captain
United_States
466
Rep
818
Posts

Drives: '17 328d Sport Wagon
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
I understand the love for wagons...

But the reason I went with an X5 is for the clearance which you simply don't get with a wagon. New York City is practically off-roading, plus I frequently go to upstate NY where I end up in deep snow, on an unpaved road or actually off-roading just because that's the terrain you are likely to end up on (nothing serious but i'm sure you get the point).

I just don't see how a wagon would allow me to navigate these obstacles. Someone convince me!!!
As someone that drives on dirt/gravel/clay/rocky roads often, I can tell you that a wagon is sufficient for clearance. In fact, I can drive these roads faster than plenty of SUV's because my suspension isn't constantly bottoming out on dips. I've had to turn around on old logging roads by Tahoe not because I couldn't make it, but because the SUVs behind me couldn't due to bottoming out and scraping all over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Everyone thinks they drive the rubicon in their SUVs
Case in point, pgviper above.
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2019, 02:32 PM   #27
stevenvillatoro
Lieutenant
stevenvillatoro's Avatar
United_States
489
Rep
556
Posts

Drives: ‘18 M240i, Estoril Blue
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 BMW M240i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
But the reason I went with an X5 is for the clearance which you simply don't get with a wagon... I just don't see how a wagon would allow me to navigate these obstacles. Someone convince me!!!
Simple to resolve the issue of clearance with an adjustable height suspension... easier than adding half a ton of SUV to gain inches?

If any OEM would put even a fraction of the effort into **re-imagining** the wagon that it had into rehashing the SUV, it'd have a viable niche with few competitors in North America.

It's a marketing problem. Need to crank up the 'must-have' factor and instill some buzz worthiness.
__________________
—Steve

2018 M240i Coupe
Appreciate 1
Viffermike1616.50

      01-10-2019, 04:04 PM   #28
pgviper
Captain
United_States
190
Rep
803
Posts

Drives: X5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Brooklyn, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaRKle! View Post
As someone that drives on dirt/gravel/clay/rocky roads often, I can tell you that a wagon is sufficient for clearance. In fact, I can drive these roads faster than plenty of SUV's because my suspension isn't constantly bottoming out on dips. I've had to turn around on old logging roads by Tahoe not because I couldn't make it, but because the SUVs behind me couldn't due to bottoming out and scraping all over.

Case in point, pgviper above.
I definitely don't think I drive a rubicon lol. But you can't argue the thicker sidewalls, greater suspension travel, few extra inches of clearance, etc... all of which go a long way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenvillatoro View Post
Simple to resolve the issue of clearance with an adjustable height suspension... easier than adding half a ton of SUV to gain inches?

If any OEM would put even a fraction of the effort into **re-imagining** the wagon that it had into rehashing the SUV, it'd have a viable niche with few competitors in North America.

It's a marketing problem. Need to crank up the 'must-have' factor and instill some buzz worthiness.
So I definitely considered the All Road, I think it's really the only wagon that provides the extra utility required to replace an SUV. But still, my X5 has significantly more interior cargo space (with the rear seats down) than the All Road. Still making it a no-go.

I'm hearing everyones points but ultimately, to get the "driving experience" of a car, you still don't completely get the utility of an SUV. This makes a wagon, again in my eyes, a compromise vehicle... Good at most, not great at anything.
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2019, 04:30 PM   #29
Z K
Brigadier General
Z K's Avatar
United_States
1284
Rep
4,663
Posts

Drives: E90 M3, B8.5 A4
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post

I'm hearing everyones points but ultimately, to get the "driving experience" of a car, you still don't completely get the utility of an SUV. This makes a wagon, again in my eyes, a compromise vehicle... Good at most, not great at anything.
I don't know if it's the "super sizing" of American family car needs, but whole generations grew up without SUVs. People were fine moving their families in sedans and sometimes wagons. I grew up with my parents owning a mid size family sedan and it was fine for a family of 4 - even on long 8+ hour road trips. I don't see why that is different today.

Plus, if you live in a urban city center like SF or manhattan - try parking a SUV. It's hard to squeeze between tight parking spots, even opening the door without hitting the next car is a chore. Try squeezing between cars parallel parking. Try opening the back hatch without hitting the car behind you or the ceiling in a parking structure... it's super impractical. I had a loaner X5 while my car was at the dealer and it was very stressful maneuvering this tank around the city.

The SUV is purely a creation of modern standards and people wanting more and bigger. No one needs a SUV besides people who actually drive off road.
__________________
Auto Detailing Enthusiast!
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2019, 04:34 PM   #30
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
2088
Rep
7,376
Posts

Drives: My wife's car
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post

I'm hearing everyones points but ultimately, to get the "driving experience" of a car, you still don't completely get the utility of an SUV. This makes a wagon, again in my eyes, a compromise vehicle... Good at most, not great at anything.
I don't know if it's the "super sizing" of American family car needs, but whole generations grew up without SUVs. People were fine moving their families in sedans and sometimes wagons. I grew up with my parents owning a mid size family sedan and it was fine for a family of 4 - even on long 8+ hour road trips. I don't see why that is different today.

Plus, if you live in a urban city center like SF or manhattan - try parking a SUV. It's hard to squeeze between tight parking spots, even opening the door without hitting the next car is a chore. Try squeezing between cars parallel parking. Try opening the back hatch without hitting the car behind you or the ceiling in a parking structure... it's super impractical. I had a loaner X5 while my car was at the dealer and it was very stressful maneuvering this tank around the city.

The SUV is purely a creation of modern standards and people wanting more and bigger. No one needs a SUV besides people who actually drive off road.
Yeah, I have confused many people by using a GTI as a child, dog, ski and bike transport. I'm 6'2" and would actually be happy with something smaller.
Appreciate 2
Viffermike1616.50
Z K1283.50

      01-10-2019, 05:25 PM   #31
NCThreePedals
Second Lieutenant
148
Rep
200
Posts

Drives: f82 M4 6spd
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Raleigh, NC

iTrader: (0)

There's a lot of Acura TSX wagons around me, they're hideous. I understand the "swag wagon" niche but that's all it is. I get the rarity of them and can appreciate cool ones like the CTS-V but they're not for me

I see all my "rich" friends springing for full size SUVs like XC90, X5, Yukon XL, model X, etc from their sedans or smaller SUVs
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2019, 05:30 PM   #32
pgviper
Captain
United_States
190
Rep
803
Posts

Drives: X5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Brooklyn, NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I don't know if it's the "super sizing" of American family car needs, but whole generations grew up without SUVs. People were fine moving their families in sedans and sometimes wagons. I grew up with my parents owning a mid size family sedan and it was fine for a family of 4 - even on long 8+ hour road trips. I don't see why that is different today.

Plus, if you live in a urban city center like SF or manhattan - try parking a SUV. It's hard to squeeze between tight parking spots, even opening the door without hitting the next car is a chore. Try squeezing between cars parallel parking. Try opening the back hatch without hitting the car behind you or the ceiling in a parking structure... it's super impractical. I had a loaner X5 while my car was at the dealer and it was very stressful maneuvering this tank around the city.

The SUV is purely a creation of modern standards and people wanting more and bigger. No one needs a SUV besides people who actually drive off road.
Personally, I have cargo space needs beyond the basic family. Pickups and other trucks are simply way to big making the X5 a great contender. I also haven't had any issues parallel parking in Brooklyn or maneuvering around NYC. But if someone does, then I completely agree, it's not the right choice for them.
Appreciate 1
kozzi714.00

      01-10-2019, 05:42 PM   #33
Suds
/M Enthusiast
Suds's Avatar
United_States
121
Rep
486
Posts

Drives: M4, A4 Avant USP, Vette
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lone Star State

iTrader: (1)

Proud Wagon Master here!!
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 1
Red Bread2087.50

      01-10-2019, 06:13 PM   #34
Z K
Brigadier General
Z K's Avatar
United_States
1284
Rep
4,663
Posts

Drives: E90 M3, B8.5 A4
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCThreePedals View Post
There's a lot of Acura TSX wagons around me, they're hideous. I understand the "swag wagon" niche but that's all it is. I get the rarity of them and can appreciate cool ones like the CTS-V but they're not for me

I see all my "rich" friends springing for full size SUVs like XC90, X5, Yukon XL, model X, etc from their sedans or smaller SUVs
I don't know if Model X qualifies as a "SUV". It's more like a tall minivan.

Heck, I think a minivan is way more practical and useful than a SUV.
__________________
Auto Detailing Enthusiast!
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2019, 12:27 AM   #35
Mingwan
Captain
984
Rep
933
Posts

Drives: Beastly
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Kansas

iTrader: (0)



Sufficient clearance. Ample interior and cargo space.

But I think I’d rather buy these with the same or less interior space than a subcompact sedan, with barely anymore ground clearance, and a useless amount of cargo space.



Appreciate 0
      01-12-2019, 10:01 AM   #36
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
2088
Rep
7,376
Posts

Drives: My wife's car
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Looks like someone is paying attention.
https://carbuzz.com/news/exclusive-a...vant-to-the-us
Appreciate 1
mose121108.00

      01-12-2019, 10:25 AM   #37
glennQNYC
Benelli M4 Speed Loader
glennQNYC's Avatar
United_States
3341
Rep
3,951
Posts

Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [4.87]
Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitm2 View Post
BMW isn't pushing it because the market is incredibly small. Just because there is growth over 5 years doesn't mean its worth it from a business aspect.

If you scroll down in the article, it states that in the US, wagon sales "accounts for less than 2 percent of the U.S. auto market."
I basically agree, but what percentage of the market are EV sales? We're told we'll all be in an EV in 48 months if you listen to some radical politicians. (Exaggeration)
__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2019, 10:30 AM   #38
iamwingman
Captain
675
Rep
893
Posts

Drives: m4
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

My Audi sales guy said there is a rumor either the rs4 or rs6 wagon is coming to USA in 20. I’d be very very interested if so.
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2019, 10:31 AM   #39
glennQNYC
Benelli M4 Speed Loader
glennQNYC's Avatar
United_States
3341
Rep
3,951
Posts

Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [4.87]
I've considered a Subaru Crosstrek as my beater/foul weather car. For some reason I find them acceptably attractive.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2019, 10:45 AM   #40
Red Bread
Major General
United_States
2088
Rep
7,376
Posts

Drives: My wife's car
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I've considered a Subaru Crosstrek as my beater/foul weather car. For some reason I find them acceptably attractive.
Agreed, just wish they were available with a real engine.
Appreciate 1
glennQNYC3341.00

      01-12-2019, 10:57 AM   #41
0w40X1
First Lieutenant
32
Rep
373
Posts

Drives: 2014 BMW X1 s28i M Sport
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: West Texas

iTrader: (0)

Some have mentioned boring and a boat like driving feel of X SAV's.

My X1 s28i M sport does NOT sway....ANY, but still not jarring on bumps.

I can't imagine any car could be MORE FUN.

The valet took us home in a X5 while ours getting service, and I could feel the sway like a boat or a Lincoln Town Car. It wasn't M sport.

Got a loaner X5 M sport loaner later, and it was firm, but felt big.

My wife wanted the X1, and everytime she picks a car she's right!

Since, we are retired I do the driving though.
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2019, 11:50 AM   #42
nick3753
Major
nick3753's Avatar
279
Rep
1,048
Posts

Drives: 2012 e92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fresno,CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamwingman View Post
My Audi sales guy said there is a rumor either the rs4 or rs6 wagon is coming to USA in 20. I'd be very very interested if so.
I would too. Traded in my wife's SQ5 on an S6 last year when her lease was up. There is so much more space in the S6 then there was in the SUV and even compared to our old e70 X5 we had before. Of course the drive is much better as well. I would jump all over even an S6 avant, let alone RS6.
Appreciate 1
      01-12-2019, 04:21 PM   #43
MJBO
First Lieutenant
MJBO's Avatar
Australia
205
Rep
305
Posts

Drives: 2011 M3 E90 DCT
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenvillatoro View Post
The "wagon" moniker is a turnoff, in itself, same as saying "minivan". Find an new acronym (ŕ la "SUV") that's without negative stereotypical associations of yesteryear... add "Sport" to the mix, and you'll see wagons make a broad market comeback. Lots of advantages over an SUV, of course.
In Europe it’s an “Estate”, much classier.
Appreciate 1
Germanauto2505.50

      01-12-2019, 08:21 PM   #44
Germanauto
Colonel
Germanauto's Avatar
United_States
2506
Rep
2,447
Posts

Drives: BMW, Lexus
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: NW and Midwest

iTrader: (0)

I find this very hard to believe. Seems like some cherry picked data used to make a headline.
Appreciate 1
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:48 AM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST