[G.Newt]

Saw your post in the other thread. Do you (and your tuner) feel like the TU pump will max out the stock turbo on full E85 the way you're doing it (moderate boost in mid-range)?

I'm considering going Dorch stage 2 just to have the extra headroom, and to be able to send it a bit more without worrying about rail pressure dropping, but if there's no point, then TU pump it is.

[baldeagleman]

Originally Posted by G.Newt

Saw your post in the other thread. Do you (and your tuner) feel like the TU pump will max out the stock turbo on full E85 the way you're doing it (moderate boost in mid-range)?

I'm considering going Dorch stage 2 just to have the extra headroom, and to be able to send it a bit more without worrying about rail pressure dropping, but if there's no point, then TU pump it is.

There is no reason to get a Dorch stage 2 pump if you're only planning on using the stock turbo.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by G.Newt

Saw your post in the other thread. Do you (and your tuner) feel like the TU pump will max out the stock turbo on full E85 the way you're doing it (moderate boost in mid-range)?

I'm considering going Dorch stage 2 just to have the extra headroom, and to be able to send it a bit more without worrying about rail pressure dropping, but if there's no point, then TU pump it is.

It depends on your goals. Not sure I would say the turbo is maxed, but at this point we're doing 18+ psi and 17.5+ timing in the top end so it's getting there. A dorch stage 1 would prevent you from being torque limited in the midrange like I am.

Based on my logs, the turbo can't hold much more boost in the upper rev range. My targets are a little above actual boost to keep it pushing as hard as it can. But Paul is still working on seeing if he can get more out of it since my rail pressure is holding steady.

[alyabiev]

Originally Posted by kern417

It depends on your goals. Not sure I would say the turbo is maxed, but at this point we're doing 18+ psi and 17.5+ timing in the top end so it's getting there. A dorch stage 1 would prevent you from being torque limited in the midrange like I am.

Based on my logs, the turbo can't hold much more boost in the upper rev range. My targets are a little above actual boost to keep it pushing as hard as it can. But Paul is still working on seeing if he can get more out of it since my rail pressure is holding steady.

I hope upcoming higher summer IATs inducing more boost to get to the load target and forcing HPFP to work much harder are taken into account👌

[kern417]

Originally Posted by alyabiev

I hope upcoming higher summer IATs inducing more boost to get to the load target and forcing HPFP to work much harder are taken into account👌

Here it doesn't change that much. My IATs are always in the same range once the car warms up. Even with OTS maps my boost was steady whether it was 40F or 90F outside.

[kern417]

Paul turned it up a bit. More boost throughout the rev range and more timing too. Still holding fuel pressure

I think AFR management is key. I did a quick inspection of my spark plugs over the weekend and it looks good. Not as rich as OTS maps but still more rich than the OEM tune from BMW so it's safe.

[kern417]

Just an idea of where we are so far every time I think we are close to the limit he finds a way to pull more out of it.

[kern417]

Well, looks like I may have jinxed myself I got one more update this morning, and after Paul's review it looks like the tune is dialed in. I can see the hpfp working hard as temps rise, so we're calling it as the safe limit currently. I'll continue running logs as things warm up this summer to make sure it's ok.

Final numbers:
F80Paul E85 Stage 2 (Measured E75ish)
Boost: 19.5 PSI
AFR: 13.2
Timing: 18.5° Advance

Mods:
VRSF Downpipe
B58 TU Pump
550i Clutch

My final thoughts after everything:

Either run meth or a bigger fuel pump for best results
I am torque limited in the midrange due to the fuel pump. For max torque and the widest torque curve, a bigger pump is needed. F80Paul was able to work around the limitations and it doesn't bother me for a budget build that's still very fast above 5krpm, but there's room for improvement if you want to have your cake and eat it too. Also meth has a higher octane rating than ethanol, so that always will support more power on top of everything.

Upgrade to the 550i clutch or better (or XHP for auto trans)
Everyone asks me if I'm sure the stock clutch wouldn't hold the power or if the CDV is enough of an upgrade, but at 19psi I feel like the engine is trying to jump out of the car. The torque is much higher than on 93/E30 OTS maps based on the butt dyno. I don't think that a small CDV upgrade will account for potentially 50+ torque over what we get with OTS maps. But that's just an opinion. The last thing you want to worry about when going through revisions, is your clutch is slipping and now you have to wait on swapping it before continuing development.

13-13.5 AFR is fine
This was a point of contention before and I know not everyone agrees, but I am experiencing no issues running leaner than typical AFRs. Paul specifically bumped it up above 5k where the pump has a lot more headroom and boost increases. Below 5k, it's similar to OEM Tune AFRs with a lot more timing. So basically if it's ok for OEM tune, it *should* be ok for aftermarket tunes. But he runs it a little more rich in the higher boost range. Time will tell for sure, but I inspected my spark plugs through the process and there's no indication of running lean whatsoever.

Stock plugs are fine
Again time will tell, but I have no issues with my OEM re-gapped champions. I'll probably change to NGK when the time comes just because I'm familiar with the brand, but I wouldn't say you need to run out the door and replace them before tuning. I do recommend running less than the OEM 0.030" gap for best performance.

An intercooler upgrade wouldn't hurt
I'm still looking at my options, but 19+ PSI is definitely showing in my IATs. I sometimes see 20° spikes in my 40-140 pull. Not the end of the world, but not ideal either. 16psi on OTS tunes maybe increased 5°-10°, so again I'll be keeping an eye on it as temps warm up. Potentially I'll be looking into a radiator or other improved cooling methods in the future.

Only you can decide if it's worth it
Based on my logs, I am still fuel limited. As stated above, a bigger pump would likely net more torque throughout the rev range. I highly suspect that I could make similar power with lower ethanol blends. As of the time of this post, I've seen a 500whp dyno with stock turbo on E30 and meth, so there's plenty of capacity in the turbo. However, I went this route because it doesn't smell bad like 93oct, I don't have to calculate mixes at the pump, and I don't have to keep an eye on any auxilliary fuel tanks, pump controllers, etc. I know tuners are currently working on a "Stage 2+" file to work with pump gas and the TU pump, so there will be options for people that just want more power on 93 or E30 as well. But this was the best option for me due to convenience. And deep down I've always wanted to run full E85 so this hits that goal I've had.

Overall I am very pleased with the experience and Paul was amazing to work with. I recommend hitting him up for all of your custom tuning needs. He answered a lot of questions up front without hesitation. Once the process was started, he sent revisions at most 2 days after sending logs to keep things moving. And it didn't take 20+ revisions to dial it in like I've heard from some other tuners.

I'm waiting for confirmation with Paul that he doesn't mind me publicly sharing logs, but if you guys have any questions I'll answer what I can

[Supr3me]

Awesome recap and 'takeaway observations'. Defining the the edges of safety for most of the typical mod configurations is super important for the tuners that come after us and the 'Stock turbo+Supra pump+high % ethanol' is definitely one of the common mod configurations we'll see people running.

One of my observations, having worked with Wedge and observed other people asking about "Which custom tune shop should I work with?" -
Although my experience with Wedge was generally good, I ended up receiving 3 revisions from them and did not get any kind of feeling like they wanted to go the distance and keep tweaking and keep exploring. This may be a difference in some of the expectation setting you and I did differently initially, and you may have paid more than I did for a custom tune (I paid $500), but it seems like you got more/went further. Maybe I got lucky and we hit the sweet spot in 3 revs, just a thought that has occurred to me as you've shared your updates.

Edit: will you be planning a dyno run soon?

[kern417]

Originally Posted by Sµpreme

Awesome recap and 'takeaway observations'. Defining the the edges of safety for most of the typical mod configurations is super important for the tuners that come after us and the 'Stock turbo+Supra pump+high % ethanol' is definitely one of the common mod configurations we'll see people running.

One of my observations, having worked with Wedge and observed other people asking about "Which custom tune shop should I work with?" -
Although my experience with Wedge was generally good, I ended up receiving 3 revisions from them and did not get any kind of feeling like they wanted to go the distance and keep tweaking and keep exploring. This may be a difference in some of the expectation setting you and I did differently initially, and you may have paid more than I did for a custom tune (I paid $500), but it seems like you got more/went further. Maybe I got lucky and we hit the sweet spot in 3 revs, just a thought that has occurred to me as you've shared your updates.

Edit: will you be planning a dyno run soon?

I hear you man. I don't want to name any names, but a lot of people have good results at the tail end of everything but aren't satisfied with the experience. Either they get 20+ revisions in with small things still not resolved, or it takes a week or more to get feedback on logs. A lot of the BM3 guys know this, and I was able to get good feedback in PMs since no one tends to put tuners on blast without a catastrophic issue happening. But it takes a lot of motivation to switch tuners after already paying one, so those are the guys I talked to first.

Honestly I had about 2-3 revisions that did feel good, but didn't show a lot in the logs. I think during that time, he was trying different things to see if he could work around the limits. Then suddenly I got a revision that opened the flood gates. I guess he cracked it lol. So it did feel good to know he was trying at least. I didn't understand everything about his strategy at first, but it began to make more sense as we progressed.

At least for me, it was really important to get quick feedback since I didn't want to potentially drive on an unsafe tune for an extended period of time. My right foot doesn't have a chill switch, so my only option would be to park it between revisions. I reached out to a handful of tuners and I got the fastest responses from Paul, so I jumped on his black friday deal last year and never looked back.

There are a lot of good tuners out there, but they way they treat their customers is the most important imo. I'll sacrifice 10hp to enjoy the process.

And yes, I'll be going back to the dyno this summer. I went to a friend's shop that's a little over an hour away, but unfortunately he doesn't work there anymore. So now I'm stuck going there to at least get consistent before an after results you win some you lose some. After this I'll probably try to create a relationship with a local shop and begin doing future dyno runs there.

Also - going to add my thoughts on whether it's worth it. You just reminded me that's the top question I get from people.

[OzBMR]

Sounds good, look forward to seeing some logs

[kern417]

After talking with Paul, we decided to keep logs private so that his tuning method isn't published across the internet. However, if you guys have any specific questions, feel free to ask/message me.

[OzBMR]

Originally Posted by kern417

After talking with Paul, we decided to keep logs private so that his tuning method isn't published across the internet. However, if you guys have any specific questions, feel free to ask/message me.

What about just a 3rd or 4th gear log with time stamp, Accelerator pedal %, RPM, AFR and Manifold Boost PSI? No different to posting a dyno chart.

Even a log with just the first three items would be good, if boost and AFR are too sensitive to include.

I understand the sensitivities around a log with every channel, timing, load targets etc etc. as not too many running around with straight E85 tunes yet and having everything would make it easier to reverse engineer a tune.

[kern417]

Longer term update. Now at ~14500 miles. That makes about 2k with the tune. Everything is still going great. I can definitely see the tune adjusting as temps rise. The fuel pump is working harder and there are sharp adjustments being made on days where it's 80F+. It still pulls hard without any fuel cuts. My fastest dragy times are below. On average it runs ~7.9-8.1 100-200 and 9.0-9.3 60-130 depending on weight, ambient conditions, how fast I shift, etc.

At the end of May, I started getting some hesitation during pulls. The car would hiccup like it was misfiring. My first thought was plugs, so I dropped the gap from .25-.22, but that didn't fix it. I couldn't see much of anything in logs. Then I considered that I wasn't driving the car much, so maybe I just had old E85 in the system. That was a perfect excuse to run a tank of E30 on the new stg 2+ map to flush things out. After running it and switching back to E85, the hesitation has cleared up. So just a reminder to run a tank of 93/E30 every once in a while to keep everything happy.

Stage 2+ E30 vs Full E85
- Ran ~E33 (Verified on my analyzer) with no fuel pressure drops.
- OTS Logs weren't as clean from a timing perspective vs a custom tune
- Butt dyno says they "feel" about the same
- Dragy times are about 0.3s faster on E85
- I'd guess 20hp difference, but I have no plans on running stage 2+ on the dyno to verify
- First time running E30 with a downpipe - smells way worse

Any other questions feel free to ask.

[OzBMR]

Originally Posted by kern417

Longer term update. Now at ~14500 miles. That makes about 2k with the tune. Everything is still going great. I can definitely see the tune adjusting as temps rise. The fuel pump is working harder and there are sharp adjustments being made on days where it's 80F+. It still pulls hard without any fuel cuts. My fastest dragy times are below. On average it runs ~7.9-8.1 100-200 and 9.0-9.3 60-130 depending on weight, ambient conditions, how fast I shift, etc.

At the end of May, I started getting some hesitation during pulls. The car would hiccup like it was misfiring. My first thought was plugs, so I dropped the gap from .25-.22, but that didn't fix it. I couldn't see much of anything in logs. Then I considered that I wasn't driving the car much, so maybe I just had old E85 in the system. That was a perfect excuse to run a tank of E30 on the new stg 2+ map to flush things out. After running it and switching back to E85, the hesitation has cleared up. So just a reminder to run a tank of 93/E30 every once in a while to keep everything happy.

Stage 2+ E30 vs Full E85
- Ran ~E33 (Verified on my analyzer) with no fuel pressure drops.
- OTS Logs weren't as clean from a timing perspective vs a custom tune
- Butt dyno says they "feel" about the same
- Dragy times are about 0.3s faster on E85
- I'd guess 20hp difference, but I have no plans on running stage 2+ on the dyno to verify
- First time running E30 with a downpipe - smells way worse

Any other questions feel free to ask.

Nice times.

That'd be at least 500 WHP for a manual 440i, which is big power from the stock turbo.

I've observed approx. 0.16s per 10 WHP for 100 - 200, which lines up with your 20 WHP for 0.3 seconds difference.

[AWD_Maniac]

Thanks for pointing this out in the other thread!

Your setup is similar to what I'm doing with a few differences:

- Car is AWD Manual. 550i Clutch lasted for 2 months under heavy use. (about 50 quarter mile dragy runs). Went with a Spec Stage3+ and flywheel. Just broken in.
- Dorch Stage2 pump instead of the Supra one.
- Just ordered a fuel-it bluetooth analyzer, and I'm planning to get the fuel lines from Dorch (been emailing them). Didn't know they were relatively easy to make.

Do you have any quarter mile runs?

[kern417]

Originally Posted by AWD_Maniac

Thanks for pointing this out in the other thread!

Your setup is similar to what I'm doing with a few differences:

- Car is AWD Manual. 550i Clutch lasted for 2 months under heavy use. (about 50 quarter mile dragy runs). Went with a Spec Stage3+ and flywheel. Just broken in.
- Dorch Stage2 pump instead of the Supra one.
- Just ordered a fuel-it bluetooth analyzer, and I'm planning to get the fuel lines from Dorch (been emailing them). Didn't know they were relatively easy to make.

Do you have any quarter mile runs?

Yeah my best is 12.5 @ 119. I'll have better tires going on soon so I can try again, maybe hit 11s if I can hook.

[parker1035]

Originally Posted by AWD_Maniac

Thanks for pointing this out in the other thread!

Your setup is similar to what I'm doing with a few differences:

- Car is AWD Manual. 550i Clutch lasted for 2 months under heavy use. (about 50 quarter mile dragy runs). Went with a Spec Stage3+ and flywheel. Just broken in.
- Dorch Stage2 pump instead of the Supra one.
- Just ordered a fuel-it bluetooth analyzer, and I'm planning to get the fuel lines from Dorch (been emailing them). Didn't know they were relatively easy to make.

Do you have any quarter mile runs?

How is the SPEC Stage 3+ compared to stock clutch/dual mass flywheel? Pedal feel? Smoothness of shifts? Did you go with the lightweight aluminum flywheel or steel? I’ve been trying to gauge what direction I want to go between this setup or an organic twin-disc. I’m currently seeing how long the stock clutch lasts on BM3 stage 2+ 93.

[AWD_Maniac]

Went with he aluminum flywheel.

Engagement was a bit harsh during break-in but it's slowly becoming smooth, still a bit harder to drive than stock.

Pedal effort is higher but not too much IMO (I used to drive a car with an ACT 2900 pressure plate - that thing is heavy).

It makes noticeable noise/vibration below 2000 RPM under load.

Spec told me their twin-disc would be slower since it is full-size and I would only need it if I wanted to go above 700-800 lb-ft. (Other twin-disk kits are about half the size of a normal disc).

I can do back-to-back 0-60 or quarter mile runs without the clutch showing any signs of heating up, so it is a good trade-off for me.

[AWD_Maniac]

Originally Posted by kern417

Yeah my best is 12.5 @ 119. I'll have better tires going on soon so I can try again, maybe hit 11s if I can hook.

That's a pretty solid trap speed for 11s if you can get it to hook. I ran a best of 11.97 @ 117 - but I have traction advantage and that was a near perfect run. Most times I can run low 12s. I wish there was a 2-step rev limiter function in BM3.

[SoCalCarGuy]

Originally Posted by AWD_Maniac

That's a pretty solid trap speed for 11s if you can get it to hook. I ran a best of 11.97 @ 117 - but I have traction advantage and that was a near perfect run. Most times I can run low 12s. I wish there was a 2-step rev limiter function in BM3.

its called the xhp trans flash. enjoy your 11.5s-11.6's once u do

[kern417]

Originally Posted by SoCalCarGuy

its called the xhp trans flash. enjoy your 11.5s-11.6's once u do

We have manual transmission. Trust me, if XHP has a trans flash that magically increased how much our clutch would hold, we'd be all over it I'm sure. Bench pressing a trans to swap a clutch that holds more torque isn't fun