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      06-13-2018, 07:02 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by JamesWWIII View Post
I've seen the digital display, and my preferred look is Comfort, but I drive 99% of the time in Sport, so why would I pay extra money for a feature that doesn't look like I want it to look?
You can keep the cluster’s appearance the same when you change the “driving experience” with a setting in iDrive. It’s buried, but so is everything in iDrive.

Code:
My Vehicle → iDrive Settings → Displays → Instrument Panel → Driving mode view
Discovering this setting, along with the one that controls the enlargement of the numbers that the needles are pointing to (“magnifier function” in the same iDrive menu), is what finally allowed me to at least accept the 6WB cluster as-is. Before I found that, I was weighing a 6WA retrofit against the possibility that it’d have a major effect on the warranty for the entire vehicle, not just the cluster. (The whole warranty disappears if you replace the odometer, and since half of the odometer lives in the instrument cluster, I’d be leaving myself potentially exposed if I undertook a cluster retrofit.)
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      06-13-2018, 07:07 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by supermarket View Post
You can keep the cluster’s appearance the same when you change the “driving experience” with a setting in iDrive. It’s buried, but so is everything in iDrive.

Discovering this setting, along with the one that controls the enlargement of the numbers that the needles are pointing to (“magnifier function” in the same iDrive menu), is what finally allowed me to at least accept the 6WB cluster as-is.
Well, I’m happy to hear that BMW at least allows for some customization of the digital display appearance.

I still wouldn’t have paid extra for it.

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      06-13-2018, 08:08 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Interesting you should mention that. In civil aviation the HUD is not certified as primary navigation tool as it is lacking the integrity and reliability, as well as data display required for that. It is just a convenient nice-to-have feature, which is exactly what it is in a car as well - it lifts some of the data 15cm higher, closer to the line of sight but it is not intended or designed to substitute the Primary Flight Display / the standard Instrument Cluster.
Keeping an eye on clock, RPMs, etc., you might find it is more difficult and attention-grabbing to combine 2 screens, instead of just one, even if it is 15cm lower...
I don't think improved safety thanks specifically to HUD can be proven statistically either... at least not with the state of technology we have today. But it is a promising thing, no question about it.

P.s. The HUD is unusable with polarized sunglasses
Different types of conveyances, different use for the HUD in some areas. In all cases they will improve safety simply by looking where you are going not down at the instrument cluster.

787 HUD main function.

Dual head-up displays. A HUD projects an image onto a glass combiner mounted in front of the pilots’ eyes. It displays flight information so pilots can look outside the flight deck, scanning for traffic or flying an approach, and simultaneously view primary flight instruments.The dual HUDs enhance safety in all phases of flight, in both good or poor visibility. HUDs also enable lower visibility takeoff minimums by integrating with the navigation radios and flight management system to provide low visibility takeoff runway centerline guidance. The dual HUDs allow the first officer to be proficient in HUD use when transitioning to captain.



Pilot did not look down once flying his approach. He would be looking up & down without the HUD.

BMW HUD main functional difference. When driving unlike flying you are always looking outside the car scanning for traffic, staying on the road, obeying signals & signage.

As for your 15cm 6" that has no meaning. In the 787 the HUD is in the pilots line of site & in my 440 its in my line of sight.

The HUD in the car in my case is the primary navigation source. PS no issue with any glasses I wear when driving.

Bottom line is you are talking to people who could have ordered the digital dash but desided it was not there yet in BMW's product. Would have bought AUDI's maybe next go round BMW might catch up with the state of the technology.
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      06-14-2018, 03:58 AM   #70
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Looking at a selling brochure for aviation HUD is one thing, looking at the actual certification and crew procedures for use - always a different story And you can easily verify that by looking for any aircraft that has HUD only and not a classic or as all modern ones do - Glass cockpit. You will not find any. The analog instruments are in the past (except for stadby instruments in some cases)
Take it from an aeronautical engineer done plenty of work on Cockpit Display Systems

Where you have a point however in your 787 example above (a state of the art aircraft!) is that the HUD there provide extensive flight data information that in a normal (no abnormal behavior or annunciation) scenario is sufficient for the pilot to make decisions, cross-checked by a second pilot.

In a car:
- You don't have a second pilot to cross-check
- The information presented on the HUD of the BMW F3x is very, very limited forcing the driver to still check main cluster.

Regarding the look of the analog vs the digital... I can't even understand how one could start comparing them... there are percieved decades inbetween.

Looking at Ferrari is quite unreasonable - Ferrari's main business has never been and is not to drive the technology. Look at Merzedes, Audi and even crappy (excuse me) cars like the french brands, where you will struggle finding analog clusters any longer. And to be fair - I am not a digitalisation junky - I hate what Tesla have done and I cannot stand cars where the entire control is within a touch screen! I like physical knobs.
But comparing a 1990 design to a beautiful state of the art display with multi-functional modes and additional features is.... rather strange.

But I respect other people's opinion and choice. I was just wondering whether it is a concious decision for a brand new car to go with an old-school cluster.
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      06-14-2018, 11:08 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Regarding the look of the analog vs the digital... I can't even understand how one could start comparing them... there are percieved decades inbetween.

Looking at Ferrari is quite unreasonable - Ferrari's main business has never been and is not to drive the technology. Look at Merzedes, Audi and even crappy (excuse me) cars like the french brands, where you will struggle finding analog clusters any longer. And to be fair - I am not a digitalisation junky - I hate what Tesla have done and I cannot stand cars where the entire control is within a touch screen! I like physical knobs.
But comparing a 1990 design to a beautiful state of the art display with multi-functional modes and additional features is.... rather strange.

But I respect other people's opinion and choice. I was just wondering whether it is a concious decision for a brand new car to go with an old-school cluster.
As I’ve stated more than once, it was a conscious decision for me to go with analog gauges, because BMW’s digital display really offers nothing for the additional money but some light-show eye candy that I don’t care about. If you read other threads on this subject in this and other BMW forums, you’ll find that I’m not alone in this opinion, not by a long shot.

I’m also a watch aficionado. I own over a dozen mechanical (automatic or hand-wound) timepieces. Why? If all I cared about was accurate timekeeping, I should just own one quartz Casio digital, and move on with my life just changing batteries as needed. So there must be something else at play here. I’ll leave it to you to try to figure out what that might be.

You curiously ignored my mention of Aston Martin. Up until 2017, if you bought one of the world’s most customizable premium cars, you got analog gauges. Period. There was no choice offered. So I don’t understand where you come from with this idea that analog is “dated” or a “1990 design”. The best designs are timeless, and what works, works.
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      06-14-2018, 11:56 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by JamesWWIII View Post
As I’ve stated more than once, it was a conscious decision for me to go with analog gauges, because BMW’s digital display really offers nothing for the additional money but some light-show eye candy that I don’t care about. If you read other threads on this subject in this and other BMW forums, you’ll find that I’m not alone in this opinion, not by a long shot.
I’m totally on board with you here. And maybe we’re beating this to death (time for a new thread?), but since Skyhigh keeps making comparisons to aircraft HUDs, here goes… (I’m another pilot. It seems like I’m in good company here.)

Aircraft HUDs are generally based on the modern “glass cockpit” PFD (primary flight display) instrumentation layout. As an interface, the aircraft PFD is remarkably well-designed (in contrast to many other in-cockpit interfaces, actually). What’s notable here is that PFDs don’t just simulate the analog instruments that they replace by painting a bunch of round “steam gauge” faces on a digital display. Instead, they’re a revolutionary reimagining of the entire layout. They use the display technology to their advantage.

BMW’s 6WB DKOMBI instrument cluster doesn’t do this. It paints a few analog gauges on a digital display and calls it a day. As we’ve seen, whether it does this well or not is subject to debate, but I don’t really consider it an inspired use of the technology. (I’m not really calling BMW out individually on this. Other automakers are just as guilty, and I suppose you’ve got to keep up with the Joneses.) There may be a great way to use an LCD panel as an automotive instrument cluster, but if there is, it wouldn’t merely be emulating traditional physical needles.
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      06-14-2018, 03:10 PM   #73
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Just to clarify - I was not the one that opened the HUD chapter here. Just the opposite - as I mentioned before, to me the HUD is irrelevant for the analog vs digital instrument cluster discussion as it is offering nothing more than a small and limited supplement to the cluster (analog or digital)
How useful that supplement is - separate discussion. I have it, I like it, but I don't miss it when I drive my Audi which does not have one. I do however miss the digital cluster. It defines the entire interior with its presence.

Similar to the PFD concept, a digital cluster does not just replicate an analog instrument.
6WB added functionality:
- Mode-specific display of related information, presented in a suitable for the mode format and color scheme (a bit like a MFD (Multifunctional Display) in aviation )
- Display of range bug on the range scale depending on navigation target to indicate fuel required to reach destination
- Manual speed limit bug and highlighting of "speed ticket speed" (speed delta over the speed limit)
- ACC and Speed Limit related illustrations in color (easy for the eye, easy for the brain)
- High contrast under all light conditions (thanks to LED display technology) and highlighting (enlarging) of current speed and RPMs for faster (subconscious) recognition
- etc.

...But yes, I do wish as well it was more customizable... ref Audi Virtual Cockpit.
Is it worth the price? Judgement call. How much should a fully digital, high integrity digital cluster cost if a small supplemental speed and speed limit projector costs 1000 euros (German market price)?

@JamesWWIII - answer understood If you were alone on this planet with your taste or preference - you'd be unique... But no one really is That does not really prove anything though. I know plenty of conservative people and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I am not being sarcastic.

Aston Martin, really? One of the most conservative British cars? When was any British car pushing technology... ever? Aston Martin maintains a classic car image... to the extent possible to retain a certain customer base balance. Even the most conservative German manufacturer Merzedes (a.k.a. "grapndpa's car" in Germany) finally figured out that the customer base of the "good old days" is slowly vanishing and moved straight to a complete "glass-cockpit". (Too much for me actually)
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      06-14-2018, 03:32 PM   #74
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PS no issue with any glasses I wear when driving.
Try real polarized sunglasses The HUD disappears to 95%. It becomes practically invisible unless you tilt your head... I did try that but others look at me as if I have a neck problem
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      06-14-2018, 07:54 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Try real polarized sunglasses
If it ain't broke don't fix it, all my glasses, clear, sun & changeable work fine with the car.

If BMW has a fully useful digital dash in the next generation 4 series would buy it next time. Right now it lacks oil pressure, water temperature & an ammeter. More then likely it will be a standard item, complete or incomplete want it or not.

I get more engine related info out of my 1965 replica gauges in one of my other cars then BMW provides with its high tech digital dash system

I would add RPM & gear selected to the current HUD & be very happy with it despite what they do with the dash.
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      06-14-2018, 07:57 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by supermarket View Post
I’m totally on board with you here. And maybe we’re beating this to death (time for a new thread?), but since Skyhigh keeps making comparisons to aircraft HUDs, here goes… (I’m another pilot. It seems like I’m in good company here.)

Aircraft HUDs are generally based on the modern “glass cockpit” PFD (primary flight display) instrumentation layout. As an interface, the aircraft PFD is remarkably well-designed (in contrast to many other in-cockpit interfaces, actually). What’s notable here is that PFDs don’t just simulate the analog instruments that they replace by painting a bunch of round “steam gauge” faces on a digital display. Instead, they’re a revolutionary reimagining of the entire layout. They use the display technology to their advantage.

BMW’s 6WB DKOMBI instrument cluster doesn’t do this. It paints a few analog gauges on a digital display and calls it a day. As we’ve seen, whether it does this well or not is subject to debate, but I don’t really consider it an inspired use of the technology. (I’m not really calling BMW out individually on this. Other automakers are just as guilty, and I suppose you’ve got to keep up with the Joneses.) There may be a great way to use an LCD panel as an automotive instrument cluster, but if there is, it wouldn’t merely be emulating traditional physical needles.
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      06-15-2018, 02:35 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
I would add RPM & gear selected to the current HUD & be very happy with it
Add a clock as well and we have a deal

Problem is, without the indications above it forces one to use the cluster as well, which is contra-productive and negates any safety advantage.
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      06-15-2018, 12:02 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Skyhigh View Post
Add a clock as well and we have a deal

Problem is, without the indications above it forces one to use the cluster as well, which is contra-productive and negates any safety advantage.
Not very frequently in reality during daily driving especially compared to a car without a HUD. Can, have, driven hundreds of miles at a crack & hardly ever bother with the dash.

I would even just go with a settable shift light like I have on my JB4 equipped cars.

Would like the RPM or shift light features for driving in manual or a traffic light Grand Prix. Clock is a non runner for me, again infrequent usage makes looking down not a issue.

https://youtu.be/hYLZ2ehwy-A

Expect the high end series that have these features will filter down to 3/4 hopefully in the next generation
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      06-15-2018, 12:58 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by BM dnobagaV View Post
Well, he asked for it, so..
Would you rather drive a brand-new 440i or a year-old M4?

The difference is, you can say that you drive an "M" or an "AMG".

I'm not hating on his car, the car+color+wheel combo is crazy sleek. I was confused as to what he was thinking in terms of options/desire.
You just want to shit on people to make yourself feel better:

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Originally Posted by BM dnobagaV View Post
Way to choose a female car color to work on *rolls-eyes*
Were they all out of individual gloss black btw?
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Originally Posted by BM dnobagaV View Post
I hope to never own an f90 or an f10. Neither do it for me.
I'm still in the market for a '10 e60 M5 though, that search continues

There is something wrong with you hahaha
Telling me you've owned the the same car three times within the last three years? I don't get the logic in that.
*Oh, you totaled the 1st two, I got it now!

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Originally Posted by BM dnobagaV View Post
Love the exterior, unsurprisingly.

Interior is wretched -.0
Looks cheaper than a base '03 325i....

Might just be my infinite love for the M6 interior styling, that I can't settle for any less, which is what an M3/4/5 is.
Seriously you sound like a spoiled poser kid with a beat-up old 5 series shitting on F30, M3/4, & M5 owners... priceless. Go buy an M5 already and post it up so we can not give a fk because it doesn't matter the car is pretty if a turd is in the driver's seat.
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      06-15-2018, 01:18 PM   #80
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      06-15-2018, 01:22 PM   #81
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Seriously though who's this guy coming in just raining on everyone's parade? You have a beautiful new car, you're enjoying it as you should because we all work hard to make a living, and in comes Mr Holier-than-thou with his M5 dreams taking a dump in the middle of a thread. It's unnecessary and I'm calling him out on it.
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      06-15-2018, 02:53 PM   #82
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I was not. It was retired before I was born.

But the plane was one of my favorites growing up, as I think it's one of the sexiest jets ever designed, and when I saw the engine code for my F32, it's the first thing that popped in my head.

Yeah, very nice looking plane, had a similar though when I saw the B-58 engine code. Looks like Convair scaled up the F-102 Delta Dagger interceptor.



When I was in US Army basic 1964 our barracks faced McGuire AFB main runway. Used to see the F-106 Delta Dart variant 539th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron going out on after burner to hunt BEAR's.. When they came back the landing AOA was unreal.
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      06-15-2018, 03:01 PM   #83
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Seriously though who's this guy coming in just raining on everyone's parade? You have a beautiful new car, you're enjoying it as you should because we all work hard to make a living, and in comes Mr Holier-than-thou with his M5 dreams taking a dump in the middle of a thread. It's unnecessary and I'm calling him out on it.
Most likely a 15 year old with no license, no car, no prospects & too much time on his hands.
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      06-16-2018, 09:50 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Seriously though who's this guy coming in just raining on everyone's parade? You have a beautiful new car, you're enjoying it as you should because we all work hard to make a living, and in comes Mr Holier-than-thou with his M5 dreams taking a dump in the middle of a thread. It's unnecessary and I'm calling him out on it.
Most likely a 15 year old with no license, no car, no prospects & too much time on his hands.
That's my guess too.
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      06-16-2018, 01:09 PM   #85
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Nice wheels! Those weren't available on the 2018 440i convertible. The Msport convertible with Xdrive only had one wheel choice for 18".

I definitely would have ordered those if they were an option. Also I really like the black grill with the gray metallic paint.

I added some black and white roundels for the steering wheel, front and back emblems and wheels, as suggested by another OP in this forum. I think mine were ordered from Canada?
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      06-16-2018, 02:33 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Seriously though who's this guy coming in just raining on everyone's parade? You have a beautiful new car, you're enjoying it as you should because we all work hard to make a living, and in comes Mr Holier-than-thou with his M5 dreams taking a dump in the middle of a thread. It's unnecessary and I'm calling him out on it.
+1. Also, the E60 is one of the M5's that I least like with that exterior style. I guess I should shit on him too? Lol..

OP I'm jelly that you get experiences like that where you are, they don't have stuff like that here in Canada that I'm aware of. Nor could I afford the sticker price on a brand new one. One day though the dream is for a euro delivery in the future.
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      06-16-2018, 02:55 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JamesWWIII View Post
Beautiful car and I like how you spec’d it. Nice write up as well and that’s one hell of a house you have too! We don’t have any homes like that where I live. Have you had any creaking from the shadowline trim?
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      06-18-2018, 01:03 PM   #88
JamesWWIII
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Drives: 2019 440i Coupe
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South Carolina

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Originally Posted by PNW2003 View Post
Nice wheels! Those weren't available on the 2018 440i convertible. The Msport convertible with Xdrive only had one wheel choice for 18".

I definitely would have ordered those if they were an option. Also I really like the black grill with the gray metallic paint.
Thanks, I’m quite fond of the combination, it’s not one I’ve seen anywhere on the road near me.

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Originally Posted by Kailec View Post
OP I'm jelly that you get experiences like that where you are, they don't have stuff like that here in Canada that I'm aware of. Nor could I afford the sticker price on a brand new one. One day though the dream is for a euro delivery in the future.
Yep, I realize I’m very lucky to have had the experience of PCD. Also cool was the free one-day driving class that BMW treated me to as a new owner. I’m already dreaming of European Delivery for my next Bimmer, but in the meantime I’m going to enjoy the fine machine I’ve got now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StockLOL View Post
Beautiful car and I like how you spec’d it. Nice write up as well and that’s one hell of a house you have too! We don’t have any homes like that where I live. Have you had any creaking from the shadowline trim?
Appreciate all the compliments! No squeaky trim thus far, but I’m going to buy a bottle of Gummi Pflege and start treating my door seals proactively to try to keep that area of concern from ever becoming an issue.
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