[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by edycol

Amsoil is good stuff, but just to be clear, most Amsoil oils are not approved.
Redline Performance series (not Professional, which is repackaged Philips66) is not approved for any of their oils.
What these companies use is "meets and exceeds" language. That is their claim that oil is meeting specification, but it is not BMW approval (Amsoil has one or two oils approved by BMW).
BMW has VERY strict oxidation requirements, and most boutique oils have bit higher oxidation, or in case of Redline, much higher due to utilization of POE. Almost all Liqui Moly oils are approved. But, approval is minimum requirement. For example, max. Noack in BMW approvals is 13%. That is very easy to achieve. Things get more complicated at 9% and lower. Redline is the champion there.
But Amsoil, Redline, and HPL have specific customers. Obtaining approvals is not their priority. This becomes an issue if warranty is in question.

Agree 100%. Once any performance car owner goes down the rabbit hole of oils, they'll see the truth, amsoil, redline, motul, penzoil plat ultra, etc. The additive packages and base oil grade 5's are just miles ahead. Especially the esther base stuff, I love like 300v. I personally just run xcess gen 2 in my 340 as it's a daily and the oil is LL01.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Ivilla035

Agree 100%. Once any performance car owner goes down the rabbit hole of oils, they'll see the truth, amsoil, redline, motul, penzoil plat ultra, etc. The additive packages and base oil grade 5's are just miles ahead. Especially the esther base stuff, I love like 300v. I personally just run xcess gen 2 in my 340 as it's a daily and the oil is LL01.

One has to be careful with racing oils. Redline, Motul 300V, additives are more suited for racing or a lot of tracking. Racing oils are really good for, well, racing. But not that good in an environment like dropping kids tos school etc. Street oils are actually better in occasional tracking than racing oils. They oxidize less, they clean better, etc.
X-Cess 5W40 is tough stuff. I did a test of Motul X-Cess 5W40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 with the help of SOPUS, and both returned stellar results in the N52 engine, with each having maybe 400mls of track time. I wanted to do a test of 300V and PPE 5W40, but SOPUS lost the sample.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by edycol

Amsoil is good stuff, but just to be clear, most Amsoil oils are not approved.
Redline Performance series (not Professional, which is repackaged Philips66) is not approved for any of their oils.
What these companies use is "meets and exceeds" language. That is their claim that oil is meeting specification, but it is not BMW approval (Amsoil has one or two oils approved by BMW).
BMW has VERY strict oxidation requirements, and most boutique oils have bit higher oxidation, or in case of Redline, much higher due to utilization of POE. Almost all Liqui Moly oils are approved. But, approval is minimum requirement. For example, max. Noack in BMW approvals is 13%. That is very easy to achieve. Things get more complicated at 9% and lower. Redline is the champion there.
But Amsoil, Redline, and HPL have specific customers. Obtaining approvals is not their priority. This becomes an issue if warranty is in question.

I'm not worried about approvals in this case.. I know what it's like to be in that industry and not wanna pay for those certifications. Plus I don't go more than 4-6k per oil change. Amsoil is easier for me since I'm a dealer etc

[n55david]

This is all excellent info btw

[edycol]

Originally Posted by n55david

I'm not worried about approvals in this case.. I know what it's like to be in that industry and not wanna pay for those certifications. Plus I don't go more than 4-6k per oil change. Amsoil is easier for me since I'm a dealer etc

Approvals are not expensive. I worked on VW504.00/507.00 testing, and company paid at that time 3,200 euros for approval. However, R&D is different story. Also, many of these companies have different clientele. Redline makes basically track/racing oils. Amsoil is similar. Add more PAO and POE and oxidation goes over BMW limit. But, those oils have other, IMO, more important benefits, like less shearing etc.

[n55david]

Originally Posted by edycol

Approvals are not expensive. I worked on VW504.00/507.00 testing, and company paid at that time 3,200 euros for approval. However, R&D is different story. Also, many of these companies have different clientele. Redline makes basically track/racing oils. Amsoil is similar. Add more PAO and POE and oxidation goes over BMW limit. But, those oils have other, IMO, more important benefits, like less shearing etc.

The oil I'm using currently had the LL01 but they didn't renew. Caused a ton of issues for people and was funny. Trying to convince people the pil didn't change was fun.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by n55david

The oil I'm using currently had the LL01 but they didn't renew. Caused a ton of issues for people and was funny. Trying to convince people the pil didn't change was fun.

BMW updated LL01 in 2018 increasing drastically oxidation requirements. Lots of oils lost approval, although oils didn’t change. Mobil1 0W40, Castrol Edge 0W30/40 etc. In 2022 they updated again LL01 and LL04 and I think they relaxed some oxidation requirements.
Mobil1 was interesting. In 2015 they introduced composition mix that was goulash of base stocks. No M1 had BMW approval using that base stocks. Excellent oils though.
In 2021 they started using different base stocks and regained LL approvals.

[kern417]

Originally Posted by milanski

Thanks yupetc. Appreciate the insight!

I've continued to dig, and I think I've landed on 0W30 Special Tech LL01FE or Synthoil Energy A40 SAE 0W-40 (LL01). FYI - Ivilla035

I saw this video tonight, and it coincided with my research. Shout out to kern417 .

Thanks for the tag. Glad it helped.

Originally Posted by edycol

Unfortunately, I cannot unsee this video.

This guy makes a lot of assumptions and then some.

No assumptions. This is data based on my own experiences and research

1. Thicker oil puts a risk on components when it can't flow properly within clearances. Same reason why 20w60 doesn't save M3 from bearing accelerated wear.
2. Both are important. That's why looking for oils that meet the spec is what I recommended. As I said, I know plenty of oils work well that aren't certified or simply didn't care to get certified.
3/4/5. I use Liqui Moly because I used it with good results and it's free lifetime replacements through FCP. Never said it's the gold standard for oil. But I've posted several oil analysis in previous videos using various weights on various setups/service intervals to illustrate that liqui moly works great on our cars. I daily my car in winter. I track my car in summer. The results speak for themselves.
6. I've said for years that my car takes longer to warm up on 5w compared to 0w whether it's hot or cold. I noticed immediately when switching. My priority is getting up to operating temps quickly and staying at operating temp as long as possible. After sharing the video I got feedback from many people experiencing the same thing. It doesn't need to be -25 to see the difference. You'll see the difference in the summer too.

At the end of the day, I'm sharing my experiences to help people that don't have time to try and test 10 different oils or switch every time a new formulation comes out. A lot of us are engineers so we understand that this rat race has a point of diminishing returns. I used to use Castrol and it worked great too. I know several people that swear by other brands and weights. But this is what works for me and gives the best results for efficiency, reliability, and value.

There are millions of B58s out there at this point. When we start hearing about them blowing up due to running OEM oils, then I'll reconsider. But at this point they're some of the leading engines in the industry in terms of reliability, even with 90% of owners going to the dealer for OEM 0w20.

As always, hope this helps

[n55david]

Originally Posted by kern417

No assumptions. This is data based on my own experiences and research

1. Thicker oil puts a risk on components when it can't flow properly within clearances. Same reason why 20w60 doesn't save M3 from bearing accelerated wear.
2. Both are important. That's why looking for oils that meet the spec is what I recommended. As I said, I know plenty of oils work well that aren't certified or simply didn't care to get certified.
3/4/5. I use Liqui Moly because I used it with good results and it's free lifetime replacements through FCP. Never said it's the gold standard for oil. But I've posted several oil analysis in previous videos using various weights on various setups/service intervals to illustrate that liqui moly works great on our cars. I daily my car in winter. I track my car in summer. The results speak for themselves.
6. I've said for years that my car takes longer to warm up on 5w compared to 0w whether it's hot or cold. I noticed immediately when switching. My priority is getting up to operating temps quickly and staying at operating temp as long as possible. After sharing the video I got feedback from many people experiencing the same thing. It doesn't need to be -25 to see the difference. You'll see the difference in the summer too.

At the end of the day, I'm sharing my experiences to help people that don't have time to try and test 10 different oils or switch every time a new formulation comes out. A lot of us are engineers so we understand that this rat race has a point of diminishing returns. I used to use Castrol and it worked great too. I know several [...]

90% of b58 owners aren't making 500+ hp either.. js

[edycol]

Originally Posted by kern417

Thanks for the tag. Glad it helped.



No assumptions. This is data based on my own experiences and research

1. Thicker oil puts a risk on components when it can't flow properly within clearances. Same reason why 20w60 doesn't save M3 from bearing accelerated wear.
2. Both are important. That's why looking for oils that meet the spec is what I recommended. As I said, I know plenty of oils work well that aren't certified or simply didn't care to get certified.
3/4/5. I use Liqui Moly because I used it with good results and it's free lifetime replacements through FCP. Never said it's the gold standard for oil. But I've posted several oil analysis in previous videos using various weights on various setups/service intervals to illustrate that liqui moly works great on our cars. I daily my car in winter. I track my car in summer. The results speak for themselves.
6. I've said for years that my car takes longer to warm up on 5w compared to 0w whether it's hot or cold. I noticed immediately when switching. My priority is getting up to operating temps quickly and staying at operating temp as long as possible. After sharing the video I got feedback from many people experiencing the same thing. It doesn't need to be -25 to see the difference. You'll see the difference in the summer too.

At the end of the day, I'm sharing my experiences to help people that don't have time to try and test 10 different oils or switch every time a new formulation comes out. A lot of us are engineers so we understand that this rat race has a point of diminishing returns. I used to use Castrol and it worked great too. I know several people that swear by other brands and weights. But this is what works for me and gives the best results for efficiency, reliability, and value.

There are millions of B58s out there at this point. When we start hearing about them blowing up due to running OEM oils, then I'll reconsider. But at this point they're some of the leading engines in the industry in terms of reliability, even with 90% of owners going to the dealer for OEM 0w20.

As always, hope this helps

I don't know what kind of research you did, but there is no such thing as "clearances being affected by thick oil." If that was the case, your engine would grenade in cold start. The only reason why BMW uses LL01FE (FE=Fuel Efficiency) is CAFE. The same reason is why they use LL12FE, LL14FE, and LL17FE. Same engine is still recommended in many markets to use LL04 or LL01 (depending on sulphur in fuel).
Take this into consideration. Toyota has language in manuals that says: "if higher speeds or heavy duty is experienced, use higher viscosity value." Or better, their engines in some parts of Australia are recommended for 20W50 oils, in coast Australia 5W40, and the US 0W20. You draw conclusion about that.

Whether oil works or not cannot be determined by simple $30 UOA. For that, you need extremely expensive testing, and if you REALLY, REALLY want to know how oils perform, you need to pull out the engine and disassemble it (that is, for example, how oil companies R&D oil). UOA is good for 2 things:
1. As the name indicates, it is Used Oil Analysis, not "Used Engine Analysis." It gives you some data about oil, etc. Nothing more
2. It can give you trends. Let's say if you suspect bearings failure etc. You can follow aluminum, copper, and lead trends.
THAT IS IT! Other than that, you do not know what oil actually is leaving behind etc. If you have a good UOA, doing another one is a waste of money; you won't find out anything.
So, unless you spent several thousand dollars or pulled out an engine and measured wear compared to a control engine, the only thing you are throwing are assumptions or your opinion. Which is absolutely fine, but here I am also, just to give some perspective on that. Now, it would be good if you emphasized that you really like Liqui Moly because it is free. Based on my experience, that oil is not worth the hassle of returning it. Other oils? Yeah. But hey, those oversized Made in Germany letters have some value.

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by edycol

One has to be careful with racing oils. Redline, Motul 300V, additives are more suited for racing or a lot of tracking. Racing oils are really good for, well, racing. But not that good in an environment like dropping kids tos school etc. Street oils are actually better in occasional tracking than racing oils. They oxidize less, they clean better, etc.
X-Cess 5W40 is tough stuff. I did a test of Motul X-Cess 5W40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 with the help of SOPUS, and both returned stellar results in the N52 engine, with each having maybe 400mls of track time. I wanted to do a test of 300V and PPE 5W40, but SOPUS lost the sample.

Oh yea i'd only use an esther oil if I needed it, for some crazy built motor car. 300V is so expensive and not needed on a b58 for the most part i'd imagine lol

[sigterm2.0]

So wooooow... I have been tracking this thread and I feel I have learned more technical information about oils than I have ever known in my life! It's great!!

edycol: Could you maybe give us some general recommendations from your testing experiences, based on some different conditions?

Moderate horsepower, low miles
Higher horsepower, low miles
Mod horsepower, high miles
Higher horsepower, high miles

Warm climate vs cold

Daily vs street racing vs track racing...

I know it's a lot to ask but I have been following this thread, I didn't realize the depth to which this could go, and I feel my upcoming oil change just got a lot more complicated!!

[F32Fleet]

OP


Oil flows only as fast as the oil pump can pump it. As temps get colder and at extreme cold the amount of effort required to turn the crank increases and the rate at which oil enters the pickup tube decreases but I'm talking 0C and colder.

In Florida temps you'll notice zero difference between a 0w vs 5w. This goes for the majority of the US as well.

[milanski]

Originally Posted by edycol

In practice, BMW (and other European manufacturers) base their approvals (MB, LL, VW) on minimum HTHS. So LL01 and LL04 are min 3.5mPas, LL01FE is min 3mPas, LL17FE is minimum 2.6mPas. Higher mPas, more protection. However, higher mPas also means more resistance, less performance, more consumption. Simple reason why BMW went from LL01 to LL01FE and then LL17FE, etc. is CAFE. I explained this in other posts, on M2 F87 forums etc. Generally, if I owned B58, I would go LL01 or LL04, as minimum HTHS of 3.5 is generally very good compromise between protection, performance and consumption. However, THIS is VERY important, HTHS is not tied to one grade. Many xW30 oils have HTHS of 3.6-3.7mPas, while some xW40 oils have HTHS of 3.6 (Mobil1 0W40). There is more to protection, like additives (ZDDP) etc.

Super helpful. Thanks for your insight. I was trying to figure out the difference between mPas and approvals. This definitely clears things up.

One of my reasons for using LM is because of FCP's return policy. FCP also has motul, so that may be worth a shot. I just received the LM 0w30 LL01FE, but also ok to return it. I'm trying to get super clear on this topic because there are tons of options.

Can you shed some light on LL01 vs LL04, isn't LL04 recommended for BMW diesel engines? The manual states that LL04 is recco for Diesel engines, I but saw guys in the oil forum talking about using LL04 in their B58s. I liked the properties of Top Tec 4210 SAE 0W-30 but was afraid of messing something up by using the wrong oil. Interested in learning more.



F32Fleet Totally get it. It seems like it takes so long to get to operating temp. Not sure why. Never really paid attention when I was using 0W20, but I also didn't have mods to tools to track temps.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by sigterm2.0

So wooooow... I have been tracking this thread and I feel I have learned more technical information about oils than I have ever known in my life! It's great!!

edycol: Could you maybe give us some general recommendations from your testing experiences, based on some different conditions?

Moderate horsepower, low miles
Higher horsepower, low miles
Mod horsepower, high miles
Higher horsepower, high miles

Warm climate vs cold

Daily vs street racing vs track racing...

I know it's a lot to ask but I have been following this thread, I didn't realize the depth to which this could go, and I feel my upcoming oil change just got a lot more complicated!!

The rule of thumb is fallowing:

1. Stock BMW, best is to stick to LL01 or LL04.
2. Stock BMW, some track days, once a month: stick to LL01, preferably oil that also has Porsche A40 approval (XW40 oils) as that approval has track testing (8X1hrs of Nordschelife).
3. High mileage: stick to LL01 and LL04.
4. Tuned: this is where it gets bit complicated. If it is just tuned, LL01 XW40 will do the trick. The higher the HTHS, the better (Motul X-Cess has an HTHS of 3.8, which is good. If you want some serious stuff, HPL Euro or BAS 5W40). If alcohol is used that is tricky. You want oil that is not based on Ester (like Redline, Motul 300V). You want THICK oil! E30, for example, might require XW50. Alcohol likes to shear down oil. So you need some buffer there.
5. SPending a lot of time on track: that is where track/racing oils would be preferable. If no alcohol, Redline, Motul 300V 5W40. If alcohol, HPL BAS 5W40 would be a good choice.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by milanski

Super helpful. Thanks for your insight. I was trying to figure out the difference between mPas and approvals. This definitely clears things up.

One of my reasons for using LM is because of FCP's return policy. FCP also has motul, so that may be worth a shot. I just received the LM 0w30 LL01FE, but also ok to return it. I'm trying to get super clear on this topic because there are tons of options.

Can you shed some light on LL01 vs LL04, isn't LL04 recommended for BMW diesel engines? The manual states that LL04 is recco for Diesel engines, I but saw guys in the oil forum talking about using LL04 in their B58s. I liked the properties of Top Tec 4210 SAE 0W-30 but was afraid of messing something up by using the wrong oil. Interested in learning more.



F32Fleet Totally get it. It seems like it takes so long to get to operating temp. Not sure why. Never really paid attention when I was using 0W20, but I also didn't have mods to tools to track temps.

LL04 is Low/Mid SAPS oil. There is no such thing as diesel oil in BMW line up. Sulfated Ash is byproduct and it clogs eventually DPF or GPF. Low/Mid SAPS oils just extend life of DPF/GPF. Basically, LL04 is low/mid-SAPS version of LL01. The reason why those oils were not used in the US in gas engine (BMW uses LL04 in EU since 2009) was high sulphur content in gas until 2017. SInce then, LL04 oils are fine in gas engines, but BMW never updated its manuals. LL17FE for example is thin version of LL04. LL17FE has same SAPS requirements as LL04, just much lower HTHS.

As for warming up BMW, always put the HVAC on cold! That will prevent the circulation of coolant. If it's foggy inside, just put the vent on 1 and keep it cold. It is the oldest trick. BMW has a huge sump in inline-six engines, and F generation has oversized cooling. Generally, thicker oils will warm up faster bcs. resistance. However, some oils might warm up faster bcs. they cannot dissipate heat fast. That is actually not good as oil has two primary functions: lubrication and cooling.

As for LM you purchased. Just use it.

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by edycol

The rule of thumb is fallowing:

1. Stock BMW, best is to stick to LL01 or LL04.
2. Stock BMW, some track days, once a month: stick to LL01, preferably oil that also has Porsche A40 approval (XW40 oils) as that approval has track testing (8X1hrs of Nordschelife).
3. High mileage: stick to LL01 and LL04.
4. Tuned: this is where it gets bit complicated. If it is just tuned, LL01 XW40 will do the trick. The higher the HTHS, the better (Motul X-Cess has an HTHS of 3.8, which is good. If you want some serious stuff, HPL Euro or BAS 5W40). If alcohol is used that is tricky. You want oil that is not based on Ester (like Redline, Motul 300V). You want THICK oil! E30, for example, might require XW50. Alcohol likes to shear down oil. So you need some buffer there.
5. SPending a lot of time on track: that is where track/racing oils would be preferable. If no alcohol, Redline, Motul 300V 5W40. If alcohol, HPL BAS 5W40 would be a good choice.

Xcess gen 2 5w40 here, love that it's on FCP!!

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Ivilla035

Xcess gen 2 5w40 here, love that it's on FCP!!

Street/track: Castrol 0W40, Mobil1 0W40, Motul X-Cess 5W40, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 are superb oils.

If no track (it could though), Castrol Edge 0W30 is IMO best choice. But, honestly, not worth price if you are getting Motul through FCP.

[Empire087]

Quaker State US here, 5w-30. Oil analysis came back fantastic. Will stick to my 7500 oil change interval. Quality oil with high shear resistance is everything. Running an oil that properly flows through your bearing clearances and oil galleys is important.

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by edycol

Street/track: Castrol 0W40, Mobil1 0W40, Motul X-Cess 5W40, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 are superb oils.

If no track (it could though), Castrol Edge 0W30 is IMO best choice. But, honestly, not worth price if you are getting Motul through FCP.

100%. If they didn't have it on FCP, I would be using mobil 1 0w40 since it's at costco for a decent price. Or walmart.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Ivilla035

100%. If they didn't have it on FCP, I would be using mobil 1 0w40 since it's at costco for a decent price. Or walmart.

I was running on track Mobil1 0W40 to 300f temperatures and still did 5k OCIs.

[Ivilla035]

Originally Posted by edycol

I was running on track Mobil1 0W40 to 300f temperatures and still did 5k OCIs.

Amazing, great oil I heard.