[FotiosF90M5]

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[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by verbs

I'm someone who has owned a CTS-V, E60 M5, and both an E92 335i and now an F30 335i (M-sport).

Here are my thoughts. BMW has been impacted by a few things. Changes in consumer tastes/preferences, safety requirements, and regulations.

To cope with this, BMW's strategy has changed, for example efficient dynamics. We would have laughed at this 20 years ago for a BMW. You've got expensive gas, miles per gallon requirements in the US, and growing environmental sentiments where BMW's biggest market is. It unfortunately had to adjust. That included a much more concerted effort to improve gas mileage/energy usage when faced with the need to add weight due to consumers' tastes demanding more electronics/features and safety laws requiring more things to be added to the car. More weight from safety stuff and amenities means beefier drivetrain/braking components and bigger/more powerful engines to compensate which does what? Add more weight. What does more weight do? Reduce gas mileage and the driving experience. Then to compensate for the extra weight which hurts gas mileage what does BMW do? Give sportline 335i cars skinny 225 tires on back and front, things like electronic steering, run flat tires eliminating a spare, etc. What does this do in turn? Further reduce the driving experience to offset the aforementioned gas mileage challenges.

What should have been done in response? For starters, BMW dropped the ball with the N55 engine. The engine is one of the aspects that make driving BMWs so awesome. I thought the N54 was an awesome step for performance, and to follow that up what did BMW give us? An N55 that while torquier off the line, makes less power than the N54 motor. So here we are, in 2013 model years, 6 years after the N54 debuted in the 3 series, with engines making less power than they used to. This in part allowed the competition to catch up. Performance package power should have been standard on the N55 for the new F30s as a way to help BMW keep its performance edge.

Not a fan of the steering which was one of the biggest letdowns of this new car, and maybe BMW should have done a better job testing or at least given us options to have a much better steering feel through a setting adjustment at the cost of MPG. The F30 335i car is longer than the E90 which makes it feel a bit bigger even though it's actually s shade lighter. The lack of a limited slip differential is a joke in a car like the 335i, another big mistake that should have been remedied long ago. That's something that would really help the car get back some of that handling feeling we long for.

You can start to see that BMW seems to be moving towards a business model that focuses more on profitability than anything else. What do most consumers want? Gas mileage, technology/amenities, comfort and reasonable pricing for example.

We can sit here and gripe about what BMW is doing wrong. But we on this board are the minority, the true enthusiast who doesn't just drive to go from point A to point B. What BMW is doing will help it sell more cars in the long run. The current 3 series is a much better all around car than the E90 for daily driving. Literally does everything better except steer and accelerate. My biggest complaint is that there's not enough of what made the 3 series great being transferred to each successive vehicle, and not enough performance improvement of late. Light weight vehicles that were fun to toss around and had soul is what made this car special. I think BMW could have done a better job incorporating the ol' recipe into future models. A few steering tweaks, a bump in power, a limited slip diff, and some lighter weight materials would go a long way to making this car the undisputed leader in its class.

Very well said. I kinda don't mind I guess. It's still a very fast great handling car. I do think however it has become more dynamic. There is a setting to meet whatever mood im in with edc and vss. I've always wanted that. For me I'm running a light tune. Combine roughly 340 Hp and great handling IMO and I'm happy with my decision.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

Im curious about the magnetic suspension though. It was good enough for ferrari. Must be pretty good. But an ATSV better than an M3/4?

//M division just would not let that happen. No way in hell thats ever happening.

Nobody thought the CTS-V would beat the M5 but it did. My money is on the ATS-V. GM smells blood and is out for the kill.

[AWe90]

E90 > F30

[verbs]

Originally Posted by AWe90

E90 > F30

Yeah uh, no. The F30 is a better car in almost every way.....and it's not close.

[verbs]

Originally Posted by spiike32

People will still buy BMW's. It's the #3 recognized brand by Fortune mag. Everyone will be jelly when the M4 comes out, be honest.

The M3/M4 cars while historically being the benchmark have let their competitors catch up. Mercedes AMG cars have been developing more of that edge that BMW used to have while BMWs are getting softer. People are praising the E63 over the M5 for the way it drives. Unreal. And the E63 (with the performance pack) is faster too.

I'm curious to see the new C63 vs. M3, as the C63 is rumored to be getting a 462hp 4.0L twin turbo motor, whereas the M3 is rumored to be getting a twin turbo inline 6, possibly a heavily reworked N55 that will get similar horsepower to the current car but about 395 lb-ft of torque. .

[sycd]

I hope this is part of BMW strategy, they are broadening their base to increase volume and mass appeal, but the cost of this change is a softer feel. The 'M<blabla>' cars (M135, etc) cars, basically new 'is', could become the new enthusiast cars with more of a E46 feel. The 'true-M' cars (M3, M4, M5, etc) could then be the ultimate in performance, raping anything the competition has to offer.

The new M135 available in Europe is getting some great reviews, and it seems these reviewers were really looking for an M335i equivalent.

Maybe... or maybe not...

[pkimM3r]

The caddy looks real nice in the video. You already know the cerdict when the other two cars are the same color. But his review in saying the c350 sport is 2nd place totally discredited anything else he said in one second. Ive driven buddies' c350 sport and they are pretty much shit. The tranny is junk, eg wont shift on command in manual mode so the gear change happens in mid turn, the engine just makes a lot of noise and the handling is even more junk. My 328i is quicker and more nimbler than that thing how the hell is it better than a 335?!?

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by sycd

I hope this is part of BMW strategy, they are broadening their base to increase volume and mass appeal, but the cost of this change is a softer feel. The 'M&lt;blabla>' cars (M135, etc) cars, basically new 'is', could become the new enthusiast cars with more of a E46 feel. The 'true-M' cars (M3, M4, M5, etc) could then be the ultimate in performance, raping anything the competition has to offer.

The new M135 available in Europe is getting some great reviews, and it seems these reviewers were really looking for an M335i equivalent.

Maybe... or maybe not...

I think i remember seeing mblahblah models for the e34. Or am i trippin?

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP

I stopped at 8:55, this guy is an idiot...

He likes the Benz because it has red seatbelts?

lol

NEXT!

Wasnt this guy in superbad? Not the most knowledgeable when it comes to cars.

[jamesems]

Sounds to me like some people want their f30's to be M3's. The f30 is a mid-range sports sedan. IF you wanted LSD, better handling more power/torque then you should have gotten the M3. For the average family guy's daily driver, BMW hit the mark. Comfort, sporty, technological, and scalable with m performance and aftermarket - all at around $50 g's...seems like a no-brainer. Do you see the same scale of community, in-terms of car clubs and social gatherings as BMW from Cady or Audi or Merc? How about after market performance development? I don't believe any of those companies come close. I like my F30, it is exactly what I am looking for.

[Ron Scott]

Originally Posted by DarkTrigger

Has anyone on here even test driven the ATS? I never considered it cuz it's so ugly to me. I only cross shopped the a4 quattro, g37s, is350, and c350.

The Caddy is a great car IMO, although its a different look for most in the German camp. I bought a 335 M Sport but the Caddy was my #2. I would not even test drive an Audi because of it's Casper Milktoast looks.

[verbs]

Originally Posted by jamesems

Sounds to me like some people want their f30's to be M3's. The f30 is a mid-range sports sedan. IF you wanted LSD, better handling more power/torque then you should have gotten the M3. For the average family guy's daily driver, BMW hit the mark. Comfort, sporty, technological, and scalable with m performance and aftermarket - all at around $50 g's...seems like a no-brainer. Do you see the same scale of community, in-terms of car clubs and social gatherings as BMW from Cady or Audi or Merc? How about after market performance development? I don't believe any of those companies come close. I like my F30, it is exactly what I am looking for.

The reason there is such a following for BMW vs. the other luxury cars is that BMWs were drivers cars that tended to attract more driving enthusiasts who enjoy and are much more into the clubs, gathering, aftermarket etc.

The point being made is that BMWs (specifically the 3 series in this conversation) are losing some of the characteristics that made it "the car to have" among driving enthusiasts in its class. The people complaining don't need M3s. They just aren't fans of how BMW has been dulling the driving experience in its 3 series over time.

[batislav]

So it seems that people fall under 3 camps.

1. Comparison shoppers--The F30 and competing cars all have their merits and people will choose which car based on which strengths and weaknesses they find to be most important.
2. BMW Declinists--it's been downhill since (insert model here) and this is evidence of something I've noticed since (insert year here). There will be some obligatory dig against some aspect of the f30 which is unfortunately not usually completely based on factual evidence and some excitement about a competitor vehicle that shows they aren't scrutinizing the competitors with the same fine tooth comb as they do the f30.
3. BMW Advocates--They like their car/f30 and don't really care whether the competitors are better or worse than what they like.

Given our bimmer hosting, I'd say that group 2 annoys me the most. Group 1 tries to make a decent evaluation, group 3 doesn't pretend to any impartiality or trove of knowledge. Group 2 however finds something to harp on (e46 chassis/size, N54 engine, tires, etc.) and then preaches about their individual opinions (often not so individual as they are informed by healthy doses of internet groupthink) as if they are reciting the great car commandments from a stone tablet.

[jamesems]

I agree. All this harping about some previous generation BMW was better at this or that is tiresome. BMW advanced the product yet maintained a competitive price point. There is a better sense of community and an enormous aftermarket. The 4 lines give options previously unseen. The consumer can adapt their purchase to their ideal. And BMW managed to do this with the regulatory perameters they must adopt. It's a cool car. Audi, merc and Cadillac are also cool cars. But at the end the day BMW offers more directly or indirectly. Hell maybe those e90 owners will be lead the way for a Cadilac, Audi or Mercedes revolution paving the way to more aftermarket solutions and car clubs in their respective groups. Giving us consumers more and better options and pushing auto manufacturers to even loftier levels. Progress is good

[332]

Tried the ATS but it over heated and rattled terribly. Where do you think an ATS will be in 5 - 6 years time? Not in the neighbourhoods you would want live!

[Reznick]

Originally Posted by jamesems

I agree. All this harping about some previous generation BMW was better at this or that is tiresome. BMW advanced the product yet maintained a competitive price point. There is a better sense of community and an enormous aftermarket. The 4 lines give options previously unseen. The consumer can adapt their purchase to their ideal. And BMW managed to do this with the regulatory perameters they must adopt. It's a cool car. Audi, merc and Cadillac are also cool cars. But at the end the day BMW offers more directly or indirectly. Hell maybe those e90 owners will be lead the way for a Cadilac, Audi or Mercedes revolution paving the way to more aftermarket solutions and car clubs in their respective groups. Giving us consumers more and better options and pushing auto manufacturers to even loftier levels. Progress is good

^ This . I still think BMW is at the top, but as stated before I have a CTS (along with 3 other BMW's) also which will probably be replaced this and ATS in a couple years if a few improvements are made. With other manufacturers pushing hard to surpass the 3 series ,we all win. BMW has to stay on their game and the competition continues to offer better products. Look at the Mustang versus Camaro race now. Until GM brought he Camaro back and its V8 was making 420+ HP, Ford was happy to sell the Mustang GT with 300+HP. Just a few yrs later we have 2 cars with massive HP and revised suspensions.If you like either one of those cars you won,,beacuse of competition

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by batislav

So it seems that people fall under 3 camps.

1. Comparison shoppers--The F30 and competing cars all have their merits and people will choose which car based on which strengths and weaknesses they find to be most important.
2. BMW Declinists--it's been downhill since (insert model here) and this is evidence of something I've noticed since (insert year here). There will be some obligatory dig against some aspect of the f30 which is unfortunately not usually completely based on factual evidence and some excitement about a competitor vehicle that shows they aren't scrutinizing the competitors with the same fine tooth comb as they do the f30.
3. BMW Advocates--They like their car/f30 and don't really care whether the competitors are better or worse than what they like.

Given our bimmer hosting, I'd say that group 2 annoys me the most. Group 1 tries to make a decent evaluation, group 3 doesn't pretend to any impartiality or trove of knowledge. Group 2 however finds something to harp on (e46 chassis/size, N54 engine, tires, etc.) and then preaches about their individual opinions (often not so individual as they are informed by healthy doses of internet groupthink) as if they are reciting the great car commandments from a stone tablet.

Best post i have read in awhile

[sean10mm]

In Car & Driver testing an F30 328i sport line on all seasons put up exactly the same 0-60 and lateral g numbers as the E46 330i ZHP on staggered summer tires, and weighs almost exactly the same, while having better fuel economy, emissions, interior room and ride comfort.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...rison-test.pdf
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...kage-road-test

The people being crybabies about BMW going to crap need to shut the hell up.

[The Economist]

Originally Posted by AWe90

E90 > F30

Sir, I think it's probably best to save face now and stop with this nonsense which amounts to nothing more than a cluttering up of precious cyberspace.

This is anecdotally, subjectively, and objectively incorrect (of course not on an individual basis, but on a - let's agree to disagree - greater "collective" basis).

You're misusing a mathetical operator which by its own definition is exact to make a point which is not only inexact but also incorrect in your case.

I'm not going to argue with you because I think from the evidence in your posts it is obvious I can not stand up to the intellectual barrage which you will undoubtedly unleash on me. But, just reading through the swaths of material online, in print, and on this very forum, you are incorrect - the collective is much wiser, as a whole, than you are because it can process and distill a much greater set of data. And, subjectively speaking, from my own perspective, you are also incorrect (though I'm going to discount this, because it's not relevant to refute your case). Look around, open your mind, and take everything in - you are a typical case of the worst kind of cognitive dissonance... and that's not cool, man.

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by The Economist

Sir, I think it's probably best to save face now and stop with this nonsense which amounts to nothing more than a cluttering up of precious cyberspace.

This is anecdotally, subjectively, and objectively incorrect (of course not on an individual basis, but on a - let's agree to disagree - greater "collective" basis).

You're misusing a mathetical operator which by its own definition is exact to make a point which is not only inexact but also incorrect in your case.

I'm not going to argue with you because I think from the evidence in your posts it is obvious I can not stand up to the intellectual barrage which you will undoubtedly unleash on me. But, just reading through the swaths of material online, in print, and on this very forum, you are incorrect - the collective is much wiser, as a whole, than you are because it can process and distill a much greater set of data. And, subjectively speaking, from my own perspective, you are also incorrect (though I'm going to discount this, because it's not relevant to refute your case). Look around, open your mind, and take everything in - you are a typical case of the worst kind of cognitive dissonance... and that's not cool, man.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by sean10mm

In Car & Driver testing an F30 328i sport line on all seasons put up exactly the same 0-60 and lateral g numbers as the E46 330i ZHP on staggered summer tires, and weighs almost exactly the same, while having better fuel economy, emissions, interior room and ride comfort.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...rison-test.pdf
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...kage-road-test

The people being crybabies about BMW going to crap need to shut the hell up.

Would you please stop with these rational and well researched posts? There's no room for facts in this thread.