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      03-11-2013, 05:52 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by 1bad335 View Post
I agree. I do think Xdrive is a good system but again it depends on your needs and where you live. I had a Audi S4 a few cars ago and I will say that car was great in any conditions but the AWD and 8cyl. motor were a horror scene on MPG. I was seeing 14 and 15 MPG. For me I know for a fact that a good set of dedicated snows on RWD will get you where you need to go.




So, Jeeps are 4 wheel drive and you see them flipped over. Seems to me that is operator induced. You can have any system you want, AWD, X Drive, 4 matic or plain old RWD. In the end if you drive like an ass you will pay the price. I see all types of vehicles stranded on the side of the road and flipped over too. People get a false sense of security with AWD systems and drive in snow and ice like they're on a dry road. It's comes down to common sense. RWD with dedicated snow tires will do the job. If you want to spend the extra cash on Xdrive then that is your choice.

I have a 2013 335xdrive + all seasons and it's great on all driving conditions.
The vehicle feels very planted in all conditions and speed.
MPG is around 22MPG for city driving, 30MPG for highway driving.

AWD is kinda like buying car insurance. Most of the time, you will not need it and most people think it's a waste of money. But it's that one time when you really need it, you glad you got it.

I believe MBENZ AMG division is going AWD (4MATIC) on all their future vehicles so there has to be some good reason.
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      03-11-2013, 05:59 PM   #68
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From the BMW page: under normal conditions, drive forces are spread out with a rear-wheel bias. But the moment the system senses excessive wheel slip, it subtly shifts torque to meet the changing conditions, offering maximum available traction and superior handling on all surfaces.

In this recurring argument, on one hand, pits people who track their cars and find their rear-drive wheels NEVER slip except in winter on ice, so save some weight and skip x-drive.

Or the other side is BMW itself, which claims "superior handling on all surfaces", and the rest of us who like the idea of having four wheels pulling instead of two.

Who are you going to believe?

As an aside, it seems the 1-2 mpg are critical to save in this case, but twice the savings do not warrant suffering through the automatic start-stop bumps nor getting the 328 rather than 335 motors.
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      03-11-2013, 06:06 PM   #69
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I ordered mine with xDrive.

worth it or not, it's your opinion.

I used to own a mustang, which got stuck in snow a couple of times every year. And it slides even on wet grounds.
I'm sure BMW's RWD is like 10,000 times better than the old Ford mustang.
But all I wanted was just some peace of mind when I'm driving in snow again. Oh, and I always wish I had an AWD car every time I got stuck.

I'd say get it if you can. You may or may not regret not getting it, but you will never regret it when you have it already.
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      03-11-2013, 06:36 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by KQ335XF30 View Post
I have a 2013 335xdrive + all seasons and it's great on all driving conditions.
The vehicle feels very planted in all conditions and speed.
MPG is around 22MPG for city driving, 30MPG for highway driving.

AWD is kinda like buying car insurance. Most of the time, you will not need it and most people think it's a waste of money. But it's that one time when you really need it, you glad you got it.

I believe MBENZ AMG division is going AWD (4MATIC) on all their future vehicles so there has to be some good reason.
Like I said, I think AWD is great to have. For me it is not a must have. I grew up with RWD cars as pretty much all there was. For me it came down to dollars. I found a 2012 335I which was on a dealers floor plan for 13 months. They made the mistake of ordering this car as a RWD in an area that is an AWD type of area. This car had no miles and was spec on what I would order had I placed the order myself. I wound up 11k below MSRP. Again, Xdrive is great but the higher stance would have forced me into buying suspension upgrades which is not cheap. Bonus for me is when the snow is that bad which is rare where I live, I just leave the BMW home and take my wife's FWD. As for M/B going 4matic, that comes down to sales and what sells nowadays is AWD. I say buy what makes you happy and what you feel you need. I just don't need Xdrive.
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      03-20-2013, 02:10 PM   #71
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I got my 2013 328xi in december 2012. I drove it in snow, rain, dry pavement, and first night i actually hit a huge puddle going 75 on the highway and I am pretty sure that if I didnt have the XDrive I would've spun into the divider 36hrs after getting the car. Being my first night drive and first highway drive in it, I had a pretty tough time adjusting to the visibility. I came from a 2006 CLS500 rwd of course and visibility was hugely superior in that. Or maybe I was just used to it.

Anyway, I have a love-hate relationship with the AWD. I love it during the 10 days of snowy roads because it dose make you feel a lot safer. I hate it cruising on the highway and around some not so tight corners. I don't pretend to be a rally driver I drive really nice and easy but I do notice the difference between a rwd and awd and I would choose the rwd if i didn't absolutely need the awd. The only reason I got the xdrive was because I had a $1000 discount for the x-drive models from my dealership and the lease would've been within a few dollars difference.

Another thing to consider is MPG if that is one of your deciding factors. It burns more gas.. like expected. My mileage is right on the money with BMW specs. I currently have an average of 28.7mpg after 3900miles but I drive 75% or more on the highway with cruise control on at 70 or 75mph. It's not bad and it will get better once it gets warmer in PA-NJ-NY where I'm always driving it.
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      03-20-2013, 04:01 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by antothaman View Post
I got my 2013 328xi in december 2012. I drove it in snow, rain, dry pavement, and first night i actually hit a huge puddle going 75 on the highway and I am pretty sure that if I didnt have the XDrive I would've spun into the divider 36hrs after getting the car..
I hate to burst your bubble but xDrive will have little to no effect in recovering from a hydroplaning scenario. AWD systems with torque vectoring (standard xDrive does not have this) may help but the advantage would be marginal at best.
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      03-20-2013, 04:02 PM   #73
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Hmmm.

I've driven awd with and without snow tyres and rwd with and without snow tyres on dry wet snow and icy roads. One thing is certain - winter tyres are essential to safety on snowy roads. Ironically there is a law in Germany for that I believe.

Awd does give you more traction to get going than rwd or fwd but your stopping distances are identical if on the same rubber. In my experience unless you're going to be on lots of unploughed very hilly roads then there's no huge advantage of awd. In fact you'd have to ask yourself why you were not going for an SUV style car in that case.

I found it funny the question came from Germany where BMW is famously from. BMW is also famous for making amazing rwd cars. If one just looked on the roads you'd see loads of rwd cars on the snow with winters on and no-one is worried!!

What worries me is the attitude of not needing winter tyres on snowy conditions. You just have to YouTube the results of tests conducted to see the life saving effects of winters- regardless of awd vs rwd vs fwd.

Your choice. Could be others' lives...
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      03-20-2013, 04:24 PM   #74
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As a previous Chicago resident for over 40 years and having many RWD BMW's in that climate, the most important thing was snow tires during "the season". You can walk thru most of it with Blizzaks in RWD set ups.

X drive is not a necessary option, I remember having the Mitsubishi GSX Turbo back in the day (AWD) and the all seasons were awful in the bad snow..It also saves on your performance tires and wheels to store them for 4 months...
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      03-21-2013, 09:59 AM   #75
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I regret getting xDrive in my car...

I had a RWD vehicle previously with LSD, and it would be a little tough to get going on an incline. In corners it would oversteer at times but was very predictable and easily corrected.

My e92 xDrive understeers unpredictably and seems to react slower than my MB 4MATIC. The suspension tuning has a very floaty feeling. The only real situation it has helped me is getting started on an incline, but that is a pretty rare occurrance in my neck of woods.

My next Bimmer will most likely be RWD.

Basically IMO, "Ultimate Driving Machine" does not apply to non-M xDrive machines. Dunno about X6m and X5m because they have xDrive with torque vectoring.
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      03-21-2013, 11:13 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by littleE92 View Post
I regret getting xDrive in my car...

I had a RWD vehicle previously with LSD, and it would be a little tough to get going on an incline. In corners it would oversteer at times but was very predictable and easily corrected.

My e92 xDrive understeers unpredictably and seems to react slower than my MB 4MATIC. The suspension tuning has a very floaty feeling. The only real situation it has helped me is getting started on an incline, but that is a pretty rare occurrance in my neck of woods.

My next Bimmer will most likely be RWD.

Basically IMO, "Ultimate Driving Machine" does not apply to non-M xDrive machines. Dunno about X6m and X5m because they have xDrive with torque vectoring.
I think the F30 xdrive with DHP will handle much better than a E9x xdrive when set to stiff, but clearly not as well as RWD. This won't change the unpredictability of the F/R torque appropriation of xdrive though.

I am guessing that if you spend M $$$ on an SUV, you expect much better handling then normal SUV's. The higher clearance probably necessitates more suspension travel, which will increase understeer due to excessive pitch/roll movement. So the active rear diff is probably necessary to make it so you can actually corner aggressively.

OTOH, I don't understand why someone would ever want a sudo-track worthy SUV...I would probably crap my pants taking any turn faster than 60 mph.
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      03-21-2013, 01:27 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Accelerometer View Post
I hate to burst your bubble but xDrive will have little to no effect in recovering from a hydroplaning scenario. AWD systems with torque vectoring (standard xDrive does not have this) may help but the advantage would be marginal at best.
Incorrect.

AWD will reduce the chance of hydroplaning in this scenario. Power is distributed between both axles, so the rear wheels are less likely skid under power.

The xDrive performs better in low traction conditions, there really isn't much room to debate on that.

Torque vectoring can help with the steering and handling characteristics of a vehicle, mostly notable being the ability reduce understeer. But since power is only distributed between the two rear wheels. It simply is not as effective as AWD in providing extra traction in low friction conditions.

While the F30 does not have torque vectoring, which is a huge disappointment to me. It does proactively shift power distribution from 40:60 (f/r) to 20:80 (f/4) during corning. So, it's not going understeer like a traditional AWD system.
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      03-21-2013, 01:37 PM   #78
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Incorrect.

AWD will reduce the chance of hydroplaning in this scenario. Power is distributed between both axles, so the rear wheels are less likely skid under power.

The xDrive performs better in low traction conditions, there really isn't much room to debate on that.

Torque vectoring can help with the steering and handling characteristics of a vehicle, mostly notable being the ability reduce understeer. But since power is only distributed between the two rear wheels. It simply is not as effective as AWD in providing extra traction in low friction conditions.

While the F30 does not have torque vectoring, which is a huge disappointment to me. It does proactively shift power distribution from 40:60 (f/r) to 20:80 (f/4) during corning. So, it's not going understeer like a traditional AWD system.
I'm no expert on hydroplaning, but I'd assume putting *any* power to the front wheels will reduce the ability to control the vehicle, since you are lowering available lateral tractive force.

Regardless, the way the vehicle will deal with this is with the stability control system which will attempt to brake certain wheels. The drivetrain will not be responsible for redistributing force to counter the loss of yaw control. In either case the best thing you can do to prevent/recover is to not apply any throttle at all.

The F30 definitely will torque vector, just with the brakes rather than drivetrain. Not great in a racing situation, but in terms of safety you don't really lose anything.
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      03-21-2013, 01:54 PM   #79
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Just to add my two cents here:

I just ordered my m sport 335xi on the 7th of this month and I live in New Hampshire, where we have obviously bad winters. My choice was simple: dedicated winter tires and wheels for winter plus xdrive, plus not driving like an idiot, means i'll have no problems next winter. Then, come summer, I'll put my summers wheels and tires on and have a great sport sedan (i got the 6 MT) that for the daily driving I will do, will be more than fun...and...I still plan to mod mine with HRE wheels, coilovers, exhaust etc.

Obviously i'm spending some money here but the point is if you live in a bad winter area and plan to run winter wheels and tires that are separate than your summer set, why not go xdrive? I test drove a xdrive auto before I ordered and the thing handled like a dream...and I have driven my uncle's e90 335i 6MT so I had a something to measure the xdrive against.

Just my opinion....i personally don't think you can lose either way.
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      03-21-2013, 01:58 PM   #80
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Yeah I agree with your sentiment that you can't lose either way. But I don't get the logic of 'if you're going to have dedicated winter wheel/tyres, why not get x drive'. If RWD suffices with winter tyres, then why get x drive at all?

It's really down to the winter and conditions and driving you intend. Clearly you've done that thinking and are sure you want the x drive. Cool.

And again - you're right - the differences for the average driver are marginal. If one is ok with extra cost overall, and likes the drive - why not indeed!
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      03-21-2013, 02:00 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medal View Post
Just to add my two cents here:

I just ordered my m sport 335xi on the 7th of this month and I live in New Hampshire, where we have obviously bad winters. My choice was simple: dedicated winter tires and wheels for winter plus xdrive, plus not driving like an idiot, means i'll have no problems next winter. Then, come summer, I'll put my summers wheels and tires on and have a great sport sedan (i got the 6 MT) that for the daily driving I will do, will be more than fun...and...I still plan to mod mine with HRE wheels, coilovers, exhaust etc.

Obviously i'm spending some money here but the point is if you live in a bad winter area and plan to run winter wheels and tires that are separate than your summer set, why not go xdrive? I test drove a xdrive auto before I ordered and the thing handled like a dream...and I have driven my uncle's e90 335i 6MT so I had a something to measure the xdrive against.

Just my opinion....i personally don't think you can lose either way.
Nice, your reasoning is great! It is definitely pretty confidence inspiring to go AWD + snows in winter conditions. Out of curiosity, do many people go the coilover route with xdrive? My understanding was the mechanical xdrive linkage might have problems with a lowered car, but that was just from speculation as to why no drop was on the xdrive. How low are you planning to put it? Do you need adjustable arms or does BMW come with them? I'm guessing you didn't go DHP?
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      03-21-2013, 02:01 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Medal View Post
...and have a great sport sedan (i got the 6 MT) ...
oh and another contrast I find interesting with UK/US is around auto or manual gearboxes. We've come from a manual culture where only now people are waking up to realise the benefits of auto. And it seems the US is going the other way. But the interesting bit is that as an example the 330d is not even offered in the UK without the sports auto 'box... To me it says something about what the manufacturers think about the abilities of modern gearboxes...
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      03-21-2013, 02:05 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZigmundUK View Post
oh and another contrast I find interesting with UK/US is around auto or manual gearboxes. We've come from a manual culture where only now people are waking up to realise the benefits of auto. And it seems the US is going the other way. But the interesting bit is that as an example the 330d is not even offered in the UK without the sports auto 'box... To me it says something about what the manufacturers think about the abilities of modern gearboxes...
I would guess some of it surrounds what type of roads you drive. My experience in Europe was lots of city driving where MT is probably a pain. Gas is incredibly expensive and lots of super expensive toll roads. Trains are the easier way to go for extended travel. Whereas out here in the states everyone lives so far from city centers in the burbs, leading to work commutes of 40+ min.

Edit: US is not going the way of MT...many car companies are starting to no longer offer MT unless you go super ecobox or sports car. Even then, some OEM's don't provide MT. 8sp Autos and DCT's are offering the same if not better MPG as MT, so there is no real economic benefit aside from reduced repair cost.
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      03-21-2013, 02:10 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Nice, your reasoning is great! It is definitely pretty confidence inspiring to go AWD + snows in winter conditions. Out of curiosity, do many people go the coilover route with xdrive? My understanding was the mechanical xdrive linkage might have problems with a lowered car, but that was just from speculation as to why no drop was on the xdrive. How low are you planning to put it? Do you need adjustable arms or does BMW come with them? I'm guessing you didn't go DHP?

I don't know the answer to whether or not "many" people go the coilover route with xdrive...but I know from posts here and from searches online that coilovers and lowering springs are available for xdrive 335s. I haven't decided on how low I will go yet, but my intent is enough to make the 20" HRE's look "right." As always, before I pull the trigger and order everything, i'll have invested time on getting professional opinion from places like Turner Motorsport etc on what the right suspension is to ensure my 3 handles appropriately with both the winter and summer set-ups i plan to run.

I did not go DHP. the auto-335xi i test drove didnt have it and it looked fine (no huge gap between tire and fender) and it handled great as well. Any handling short comings I'll address with aftermarket parts if I think it's that bad.
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      03-21-2013, 02:12 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
... Whereas out here in the states everyone lives so far from city centers in the burbs, leading to work commutes of 40+ min...
Yup...I live in the sticks so I have a 20 min commute before I even reach a highway...so I want that 20 min to be as fun as possible, hence the 6MT...which for me is more fun obviously than auto
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      03-21-2013, 02:20 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Medal View Post
I don't know the answer to whether or not "many" people go the coilover route with xdrive...but I know from posts here and from searches online that coilovers and lowering springs are available for xdrive 335s. I haven't decided on how low I will go yet, but my intent is enough to make the 20" HRE's look "right." As always, before I pull the trigger and order everything, i'll have invested time on getting professional opinion from places like Turner Motorsport etc on what the right suspension is to ensure my 3 handles appropriately with both the winter and summer set-ups i plan to run.

I did not go DHP. the auto-335xi i test drove didnt have it and it looked fine (no huge gap between tire and fender) and it handled great as well. Any handling short comings I'll address with aftermarket parts if I think it's that bad.
Nice, I'm interested to hear how it works out for you. Going without DHP was definitely smart, since you'd throw out the dampers anyways for the complete coilovers.

Just thinking waaaayyyy outside the box, but I wonder if it's possible to install an aftermarket driver controlled center differential like the STI comes with. Maybe you could flick a switch and instantly have RWD?
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      03-21-2013, 02:29 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
Nice, I'm interested to hear how it works out for you. Going without DHP was definitely smart, since you'd throw out the dampers anyways for the complete coilovers.

Just thinking waaaayyyy outside the box, but I wonder if it's possible to install an aftermarket driver controlled center differential like the STI comes with. Maybe you could flick a switch and instantly have RWD?
I always planned on aftermarket suspension to go with the wheels and BBK, so it didnt make sense to do DHP like you said.

I'm sure it's possible, anything is....but in my opinion, when you start messing with the drive-train of a vehicle, your asking for trouble...unless you have an endless bankroll which i certainly do not. At the very least I'm sure you can say bye-bye to factory warranty on a 50-60k car.
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      03-21-2013, 02:40 PM   #88
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I always planned on aftermarket suspension to go with the wheels and BBK, so it didnt make sense to do DHP like you said.

I'm sure it's possible, anything is....but in my opinion, when you start messing with the drive-train of a vehicle, your asking for trouble...unless you have an endless bankroll which i certainly do not. At the very least I'm sure you can say bye-bye to factory warranty on a 50-60k car.
Sure, I understand the apprehension. But, if you are simply changing when/how much xdrive engages then you are really only changing settings in a computer rather than changing physical components such as suspension parts. I would certainly never want to be the guinna pig though Maybe the tuner will offer factory matching warranty, such as Dinan does (assuming this)?
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