[chiefneil]

Originally Posted by daberlin

You obviously don't have lower back issues, and especially never had Sciatica. Years of ice hockey resulted in blown L4/L5, L5/S1 for me. Did Spinal Decompression at that so called snake oil salesmen's office after suffering for nearly two years afraid of lower back surgury with a 'real' doctor. I now am 100% pain free (treatment nearly 4 years ago), NO back surgury, no sciatica pain down my leg, and am able to run 40+ miles a week at the gym. My only stupidity was waiting so long to pay the $$$ for the treatment because I was naive like you.

OP, better back store has great stuff, and I wish you luck with finding the lumbar support that helps you. Sounds like you've found something that works.

Back pain is an interesting case where doctors in the US are finally figuring out that the standard treatments they've been using for decades are not always ideal. Even more recent treatments like spinal fusions are proving to be not as effective as less invasive treatments.

It's always good to keep an open mind. The "establishment" isn't always right. It's helpful to keep track of what they're doing in Western Europe and Canada, and even Asia (e.g. Western medicine is also realizing that acupuncture has real benefits, and many herbal remedies are turning out to have compounds that actually do what they're supposed to).

[daberlin]

Originally Posted by chiefneil

Back pain is an interesting case where doctors in the US are finally figuring out that the standard treatments they've been using for decades are not always ideal. Even more recent treatments like spinal fusions are proving to be not as effective as less invasive treatments.

It's always good to keep an open mind. The "establishment" isn't always right. It's helpful to keep track of what they're doing in Western Europe and Canada, and even Asia (e.g. Western medicine is also realizing that acupuncture has real benefits, and many herbal remedies are turning out to have compounds that actually do what they're supposed to).

The worst seats were my wife's Honda CRV. I used to ride in the passenger seat sitting on my right leg. Any other position made the ride excruciatingly uncomfortable. The heated seats in my E39 were the best. (In an attempt to stay on topic...)

Off topic -

I tried every form of back treatment available - including many rounds of acupressure and acupuncture. The sad part is most people in the US simply opt for some form of discectomy, even 'minimally invasive' laser, etc. because insurance will cover it (your typical $100 co-pay), whereas decompression isn't covered (costs anywhere from $3000-$5000). The challenge with back surgery is often another surgery occurs 90% of the time within five years of the original. And though in general it's an effective procedure, you end up with scaring problems that still affect quality of life regardless. Ironically it was my orthopedist who recommended decompression as an option to consider but I waited 1.5 years scoffing at the cost trying to heal on my own. 1.5 years of misery, best $3500 I ever spent!

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by falar

IMO replace "can be" with "are". While I'm a major detractor of mainstream medicine as a whole I still view "alternative medicine" and anything based on pseudoscience the same as a snake oil salesman.

How embarrassing for you that your pseudointelligence is on public display. Chiropractic treatment has been shown to be superior to drugs, surgery, bed rest, home exercise, and placebo for various types of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction in dozens of peer reviewed studies in major medical journals. This has been acknowledged by major independent review reports in many countries, including ours. There is a great deal of scientific justification for why chiropractic care is covered by all insurance companies in the U.S. and by Medicare.

Skepticism is a healthy mental attitude but uninformed skepticism is nothing more than stupidity. This forum is not the place to bash other members' professions. And yes, I'm a chiropractic physician. I will be reporting your post to the moderators. Perhaps they will see fit to shut you up for a while.

[stevehecht]

I have recommended the same kind of wedge cushion to my patients for many years. Here is a non-custom wedge that can be ordered. It is 3" thick to fill in the bucket depression.

http://www.allegromedical.com/cushio...n-p191796.html

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque320

Settled on the 2" foam wedge. 2" at the highest, tapering down and exactly 12" wide so it fits perfectly in the seat. At first I thought it should be wedged behind my lower back but that wasn't the problem. The problem was sinking down in the bucket seats and the posture which lead to the back strain. Using the wedge in the seat which basically just fills the gap. The foam is firm but not too much so. I didn't want it to look ghetto so I went and bought some fabric and had a slip cover made at a tailor in Koreatown close to where I work. Total cost $35. Much better.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by focal

massage therapy and chiro I feel are passive solutions to immediate issues, physiotherapy is an active process to retrain or to improve mobility and strength.

all three when used properly are very good solutions to your personal health.

experienced all the above and I'm in the camp that believes in doing more Physio and active personal trainer (gym time) to improve personal health. My years with a chiro, felt more and more their self serving business in the end with no real solution to my issue. Immediate comfort, yes, but it never solved my initial issues.

the "quack" stuff actually started to be introduced but I just never could justify the cost of the pillows, inserts, back supports and other stuff he tried to sell me.

been at a gym with a trainer for a few years now and never felt stronger and pain free...except for this new F30 and LD drives...grrrr.

FYI there are many chiropractors who introduce all kinds of active therapies to their patients: strengthening, stretching, wobble boards, Swiss gym balls, etc. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between PTs and DCs these days. More and more PTs are offering chiropractic-type joint manipulation.

[focal]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

FYI there are many chiropractors who introduce all kinds of active therapies to their patients: strengthening, stretching, wobble boards, Swiss gym balls, etc. There is actually quite a bit of overlap between PTs and DCs these days. More and more PTs are offering chiropractic-type joint manipulation.

I know. My late wife was a physio.

It is all blurred now. I am not anti chiro by any means. Just believe is the first step along with massage therapies. Then add the physio as the long term solution.

[jonkarn]

No problem. We(chiropractors) fight the ignorance of what we really do daily, and "chiropractors" like the ones in that video don't help the cause of the majority of doctors who are trying to perform legitimate musculoskeletal treatments.

I am not overly sensitive at all about it, just like to help people to understand if it seems that they are misinformed. And yes all second opinions and informed decisions are important with any health related concerns.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think you would ever say, "your medical doctor can be a quack, so get a second opinion", even though like I said, all professions have their loose screws. That was my point.

Either way, appreciate the correction. And if anyone has legitimate questions and are curious about what we REALLY do, feel free to PM me.

Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i

I get your point, and I agree. But really the original point was "Chiropractors can be quacks. Get a second opinion." Not Chiropractors ARE quacks. Can be = some are and some are not.


Anyway, I still strongly agree with what you have said, and I hope you did not take offense. I really posted the video just for fun. These two chickas DO look like the quack type. To me at least.

[jonkarn]

As my colleague above stated, many chiros incorporate rehab and preventative exercise along with their corrective treatments and therapies. Treatment without exercise, patient education and habit reprogramming is just as narrow minded as relying on prescription meds without lifestyle changes.

My office is actually located inside a health club, so obviously everyone includes exercise and strengthening with their treatment. We also have massage therapy for some cases. I look at myself more as a "body mechanic", much as you would take your car in to be diagnosed and repaired and corrected, with some education about how to maintain your car(oil changes, tire rotations, etc) and drive your car(don't crash or floor it every 5 seconds or drive it when it's out of alignment, etc). The body is just another expensive complex machine.

Anyway, sorry to bring this too far off topic.

To sum up the seat issue, prolonged sitting in any way is not good for your spine. The sport seats in the 3 series are better than most(decent lumbar control and support), but still not ideal, because we are really not meant to be sitting as evolution has adapted us. Those who have a fairly healthy spine probably won't complain too much or have much issue with these seats(for now). Those with more problems will probably be more effected by the lower stance of the car, and the more athletic position it puts us in. That's why some people have pain with these seats and hate them, and some love them.

Also, spinal issues are highly complex and varied in how they feel, and how they respond to the positions you are in. These seats may actually help and be more comfortable for a select few with certain back issues, and then totally wreck others.

If you must have a sportier car like this, and these particular shape of seat sets off your condition, then yes, you need to somehow alter the seating surface. That wedge that was recommended could be a good temporary solution because it will tilt your pelvis, taking some axial pressure off your discs and create a more relaxed angle for your hips. If not you will have to keep playing with the seat positions carefully until you find one of least resistance.

I would hold off from blaming the BMW though, because the guy next to you may feel great sitting in one. Including this one

Originally Posted by focal

I know. My late wife was a physio.

It is all blurred now. I am not anti chiro by any means. Just believe is the first step along with massage therapies. Then add the physio as the long term solution.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque320

I realize there are other threads on this but I figured I'd share my story. I have had the car almost three months and cannot for the life of me get comfortable in these seats. I have the 10 way adjustable manual sport seats, no lumbar and since getting the car I have developed chronic low back pain which I have never had before. I never had this issue in the GTI which had, IMO, fantastic seats. I have a history of back pain but never in the low back, always upper - until now.

I recently saw a chiropractor and he checked it out and said that he believes the pain is from three things.

1. Lack of lumbar support
2. Narrow non-adjustable thigh bolstering which essentially pinches the driver's legs causing sciatic pain
3. Bucket nature of the seats where there is a gap where the seat bottom meets the seat back, causing my lower back muscles to strain to support myself since I'm never truly upright.

I have tried every adjustment combo of height, tilt, recline, seat back etc. and no luck. I have bought a few different memory foam lumbar support pillows which now defeat the best part of the sport seats which is the upper back bolstering, pushing me too far forward. I have even rolled up a towel. This adjustable feature is excellent BTW. Any lumbar pillow addition basically pushes me too far forward and defeats the bolstering benefits for the upper back.

In short, these are Spanish Inquisition torture seats. I test drove the car for about 20 minutes when I got it and didn't notice but after living with it, it's a daily problem.

That's really it. Open to suggestions but I feel like I've tried everything and it feels ridiculous using lumbar pillows etc. in my new BMW coming from a $25k VW that had the most comfortable seats I've ever been in.

I recently drove my wife's e90 328i which has the leather power comfort seats heated with lumbar etc. and they were worlds more comfortable.

Guess I should have gotten a used e90. Gonna be a long 3 years.

I noticed you have the 320i. Are "manual" sport seats limited to just the 320i? In other words, if I order a 328i M-sport with the Sensatec surface, will it be manual or power sport seats?

[focal]

thanks for this good reply. I had a neighboring storefront practice next door to my store and his approach in our brief breaks and chats showed he's taking a more progressive and active approach to care. unlike my previous experience with chiros when younger and my sometimes negative opinion from my late wife (physio).

Anyhow, I will start to experiment with different cushions and seat positions. I have a fairly upright position already driving a manual transmission.

Originally Posted by jonkarn

As my colleague above stated, many chiros incorporate rehab and preventative exercise along with their corrective treatments and therapies. Treatment without exercise, patient education and habit reprogramming is just as narrow minded as relying on prescription meds without lifestyle changes.

My office is actually located inside a health club, so obviously everyone includes exercise and strengthening with their treatment. We also have massage therapy for some cases. I look at myself more as a "body mechanic", much as you would take your car in to be diagnosed and repaired and corrected, with some education about how to maintain your car(oil changes, tire rotations, etc) and drive your car(don't crash or floor it every 5 seconds or drive it when it's out of alignment, etc). The body is just another expensive complex machine.

Anyway, sorry to bring this too far off topic.

To sum up the seat issue, prolonged sitting in any way is not good for your spine. The sport seats in the 3 series are better than most(decent lumbar control and support), but still not ideal, because we are really not meant to be sitting as evolution has adapted us. Those who have a fairly healthy spine probably won't complain too much or have much issue with these seats(for now). Those with more problems will probably be more effected by the lower stance of the car, and the more athletic position it puts us in. That's why some people have pain with these seats and hate them, and some love them.

Also, spinal issues are highly complex and varied in how they feel, and how they respond to the positions you are in. These seats may actually help and be more comfortable for a select few with certain back issues, and then totally wreck others.

If you must have a sportier car like this, and these particular shape of seat sets off your condition, then yes, you need to somehow alter the seating surface. That wedge that was recommended could be a good temporary solution because it will tilt your pelvis, taking some axial pressure off your discs and create a more relaxed angle for your hips. If not you will have to keep playing with the seat positions carefully until you find one of least resistance.

I would hold off from blaming the BMW though, because the guy next to you may feel great sitting in one. Including this one

[stevehecht]

This brings up a related issue. I tell ALL my patients to eliminate the bucket in the bucket seats, either by adjusting the bottom cushion with the electronic controls (lowering the front/raising the rear) or by using some kind of cushion to fill in the "bucket" if it's a manual seat (along with keeping the back cushion at as close to 90 degrees as possible). Sitting in a hole is not good for anyone's back, but as you say, healthier backs won't complain very much. Bucket seats keep a lot of people coming to chiropractors and back specialists in general. I wonder why they were invented and who was responsible. Anyone know anything about the design history of bucket seats in autos?

Originally Posted by jonkarn

As my colleague above stated, many chiros incorporate rehab and preventative exercise along with their corrective treatments and therapies. Treatment without exercise, patient education and habit reprogramming is just as narrow minded as relying on prescription meds without lifestyle changes.

My office is actually located inside a health club, so obviously everyone includes exercise and strengthening with their treatment. We also have massage therapy for some cases. I look at myself more as a "body mechanic", much as you would take your car in to be diagnosed and repaired and corrected, with some education about how to maintain your car(oil changes, tire rotations, etc) and drive your car(don't crash or floor it every 5 seconds or drive it when it's out of alignment, etc). The body is just another expensive complex machine.

Anyway, sorry to bring this too far off topic.

To sum up the seat issue, prolonged sitting in any way is not good for your spine. The sport seats in the 3 series are better than most(decent lumbar control and support), but still not ideal, because we are really not meant to be sitting as evolution has adapted us. Those who have a fairly healthy spine probably won't complain too much or have much issue with these seats(for now). Those with more problems will probably be more effected by the lower stance of the car, and the more athletic position it puts us in. That's why some people have pain with these seats and hate them, and some love them.

Also, spinal issues are highly complex and varied in how they feel, and how they respond to the positions you are in. These seats may actually help and be more comfortable for a select few with certain back issues, and then totally wreck others.

If you must have a sportier car like this, and these particular shape of seat sets off your condition, then yes, you need to somehow alter the seating surface. That wedge that was recommended could be a good temporary solution because it will tilt your pelvis, taking some axial pressure off your discs and create a more relaxed angle for your hips. If not you will have to keep playing with the seat positions carefully until you find one of least resistance.

I would hold off from blaming the BMW though, because the guy next to you may feel great sitting in one. Including this one

[jonkarn]

I would guess it's solely to keep you planted in your seat during spirited driving, such as taking an exit ramp at 65mph. I've had cars without buckets that I almost slid off the seat and into the door with the way I drive. It's unsafe and you feel like the holding onto the steering wheel for dear life. Its stability for sake of comfort and spinal health.

Originally Posted by stevehecht

This brings up a related issue. I tell ALL my patients to eliminate the bucket in the bucket seats, either by adjusting the bottom cushion with the electronic controls (lowering the front/raising the rear) or by using some kind of cushion to fill in the "bucket" if it's a manual seat (along with keeping the back cushion at as close to 90 degrees as possible). Sitting in a hole is not good for anyone's back, but as you say, healthier backs won't complain very much. Bucket seats keep a lot of people coming to chiropractors and back specialists in general. I wonder why they were invented and who was responsible. Anyone know anything about the design history of bucket seats in autos?

[stevehecht]

As you might expect, the percentage of my patients who are spirited drivers is somewhere to the far south of 1%, so sliding around (when secured by a seatbelt) is usually not a concern. It's amazing how helpful that solution is for most people with low back complaints.

[slowbart]

How do tall (6'3"+) people find the F30/31 sport seats?

I drove a f31 328 recently and loved everything about the car except that the seat back-rest was quite short and only came up to my shoulder blades. Caused a lot of discomfort because of pressure in between shoulder blades. The dealer had no answer - there are no other seat options at least in Australia.

Really surprised me as I my current Audi S3 and the A4 I tried have much longer seat back-rests.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by jonkarn

As my colleague above stated, many chiros incorporate rehab and preventative exercise along with their corrective treatments and therapies. Treatment without exercise, patient education and habit reprogramming is just as narrow minded as relying on prescription meds without lifestyle changes.

My office is actually located inside a health club, so obviously everyone includes exercise and strengthening with their treatment. We also have massage therapy for some cases. I look at myself more as a "body mechanic", much as you would take your car in to be diagnosed and repaired and corrected, with some education about how to maintain your car(oil changes, tire rotations, etc) and drive your car(don't crash or floor it every 5 seconds or drive it when it's out of alignment, etc). The body is just another expensive complex machine.

Anyway, sorry to bring this too far off topic.

To sum up the seat issue, prolonged sitting in any way is not good for your spine. The sport seats in the 3 series are better than most(decent lumbar control and support), but still not ideal, because we are really not meant to be sitting as evolution has adapted us. Those who have a fairly healthy spine probably won't complain too much or have much issue with these seats(for now). Those with more problems will probably be more effected by the lower stance of the car, and the more athletic position it puts us in. That's why some people have pain with these seats and hate them, and some love them.

Also, spinal issues are highly complex and varied in how they feel, and how they respond to the positions you are in. These seats may actually help and be more comfortable for a select few with certain back issues, and then totally wreck others.

If you must have a sportier car like this, and these particular shape of seat sets off your condition, then yes, you need to somehow alter the seating surface. That wedge that was recommended could be a good temporary solution because it will tilt your pelvis, taking some axial pressure off your discs and create a more relaxed angle for your hips. If not you will have to keep playing with the seat positions carefully until you find one of least resistance.

I would hold off from blaming the BMW though, because the guy next to you may feel great sitting in one. Including this one

If you don't order "lumbar" option they are BRUTAL. There is little to no Lumbar support. Standard on cars costing half as much but BMW elects to charge for it. Doesnt this wedge just amount to tilting (assuming electric seats) the seat slightly forward?

[kyleb350]

Originally Posted by slowbart

How do tall (6'3"+) people find the F30/31 sport seats?

I drove a f31 328 recently and loved everything about the car except that the seat back-rest was quite short and only came up to my shoulder blades. Caused a lot of discomfort because of pressure in between shoulder blades. The dealer had no answer - there are no other seat options at least in Australia.

Really surprised me as I my current Audi S3 and the A4 I tried have much longer seat back-rests.

I'm 6'3" and have an M-Sport. Love the seats. I can lean my head back perfectly against the rest with inches to spare, and obviously with the adjustable bolsters can accommodate larger... bottoms.

[SRB]

Originally Posted by slowbart

How do tall (6'3"+) people find the F30/31 sport seats?

I drove a f31 328 recently and loved everything about the car except that the seat back-rest was quite short and only came up to my shoulder blades. Caused a lot of discomfort because of pressure in between shoulder blades. The dealer had no answer - there are no other seat options at least in Australia.

Really surprised me as I my current Audi S3 and the A4 I tried have much longer seat back-rests.

I'm 6'6" and didn't have any problems with the seats in the e92.

Now I'm waiting for the 428 and you are getting me worried that I may have problems. I was planning to order manual seats, but noticed the adjustments were difficult, so finally I went with electric with lumbar support - I'll report when I get the car in a month.

One thing I noticed both on my e92 and during the time I had the e92, the LEFT LOWER SEAT BOLSTER (whatever it's called) was uncomfortable, pushing into my leg. I my e92 i tried with force to flatten it out a bit and I'll try the same on the 428 when I get it. DOES NO ONE ELSE HAVE THIS PROBLEM?

Most important I NEVER GET A SUNROOF that extra headroom is far too important to give me more freedom in how I set the seat.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

I noticed you have the 320i. Are "manual" sport seats limited to just the 320i? In other words, if I order a 328i M-sport with the Sensatec surface, will it be manual or power sport seats?

Anyone know?

[Kafkaesque328]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Anyone know?

I am pretty sure 328's come standard with power but then I recently saw a few F30 sportline 328i's on dealer lots with manual seats. Most 328's have power. 320i you get power if you get the premium package. I got this car at the dealer and this is how it came. I guess anyone getting a 320 is trying to keep costs low and I wanted a new RWD sports sedan with an 8spd auto for $350 a month i.e. less than $33k and thats what this is. Start adding premium package and all the other stuff and you've got yourself a $40000 320i. So I guess that's why they ship them to the lots like this.

-------

Nice to hear from a few chiropractors. The wedge is working well. As a few have said, it simply brings me out of the depths of the bucket a little so I'm not sinking down so much and takes the strain off my lower back. I no longer get the pain I was getting. Even though the seats don't have adjustable lumbar, my lower back is flush enough with the seat back that it's fine. I had lumbar in the GTI and it was always fully deflated because I don't like something sticking into my lower back. I tried 3 different lumbar pillows in this car and that didnt solve the problem so for me, lumbar is not the issue. Pretty happy with this wedge and it looks pretty natural in the car. I made sure to choose nice fabric etc.

Longest I've spent in the car consistently since the wedge is an hour and didn't really have any fatigue. It's important to note that my lower back is sort of messed up regularly anyway due to always chasing my 1 year old around, picking her up, in and out of the car seat or high chair etc. so it'll never be perfect. My chiro did show me some useful PT for the low back that I've been applying as well which helps and I'm focusing more on core strength and lower/mid back exercises, rowing etc. at the gym.

Id really recommend this wedge to anyone experiencing these problems. Not to mention, unless you have ventilated cooling seats, I personally think hot weather + leather/sensatec whatever = swamp ass which I don't enjoy. It's been in the high 80's here this week and it's nice to drive with shorts on and windows down and not have my legs sticking to the seats.

BTW - I tried a 3" foam wedge and found that I sat up too high. This foam is pretty firm so I found the 2" to be perfect. Also getting it cut custom was key for me. Everything else on the market was too wide.

God, I'm old.

Originally Posted by stevehecht

How embarrassing for you that your pseudointelligence is on public display. Chiropractic treatment has been shown to be superior to drugs, surgery, bed rest, home exercise, and placebo for various types of musculoskeletal pain and dysfunction in dozens of peer reviewed studies in major medical journals. This has been acknowledged by major independent review reports in many countries, including ours. There is a great deal of scientific justification for why chiropractic care is covered by all insurance companies in the U.S. and by Medicare.

Skepticism is a healthy mental attitude but uninformed skepticism is nothing more than stupidity. This forum is not the place to bash other members' professions. And yes, I'm a chiropractic physician. I will be reporting your post to the moderators. Perhaps they will see fit to shut you up for a while.

Well said. I have found that usually, when people equate chiro, acupuncture or anything that falls out of the realm of oh so effective mainstream Western medicine, that they are the lucky people that haven't had to deal with back pain or chronic pain. His comments also just echos pure, flippant ignorance. Must be nice having such strong opinions about something he clearly knows so little about.

My wife also has chronic pain with slightly degenerative disc disease. This is from years and years of doing graphic design at a computer coupled with a pretty bad car accident over 10 years ago where she was T boned by an SUV running a red. Traditional doctors have proven COMPLETELY useless treating her or my back pain and are quick to recommend surgery, which is usually a bad idea.. They can look at an MRI where even a layman can see the bulging and herniation and say "this is inconclusive. Chiropractors aren't real doctors, are you a drug seeker? That'll be $450 15 minutes of my time." Frankly, doctors are baffled by back pain and don't know what to do. She even tried epidural steroid injections which didn't help.

The only thing that has helped her and I is regular chiropractic and acupuncture. We also exercise regularly which is essential.

[slowbart]

Originally Posted by SRB

I'm 6'6" and didn't have any problems with the seats in the e92.

...

Most important I NEVER GET A SUNROOF that extra headroom is far too important to give me more freedom in how I set the seat.

Well, I'm going to search out some used E92's then!

Agree with the sunroof comment. Although I did find there was ample room in the F31 with a sunroof, I'd never buy one. At 6'+ I reckon you can never have too much headroom :-)

[SteveL1]

Anyone ever look at putting the Multi Contour seats from the f10 5 series in a 3 or 4 series? Hard to imagine that they would fit but if you have not sat in one, do your self a favor if you have back or neck issue. Huge difference over the Sport or Luxury seats from the f30 & f32.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Doesnt this wedge just amount to tilting (assuming electric seats) the seat slightly forward?

Yes.