[chowser51]

I used the app today on my iphone to turn xdrive back on for the snow we’re getting today.

[G80S58]

will getting xDelete give a tuned car more HP/Torque? will I feel it?

[Skyhigh]

Simplified answer - no.

[LYTSOUT]

Originally Posted by Shield_F32

will getting xDelete give a tuned car more HP/Torque? will I feel it?

Originally Posted by Skyhigh

Simplified answer - no.

I think the answer is probably both yes and no. Obviously there's no power added, but there is (at least in theory) less power lost.

I think this may have been discussed earlier in this thread, but here it is again: xDelete published this youtube video showing a dyno with gains of 28hp after being flashed from AWD to RWD (on a "mildly" tuned E90...whatever that means!) due to reduced drivetrain losses. How real or replicable this is is probably debatable, but it at least suggests the theory is relevant. It would've been nice to see what sort of numbers an OEM RWD E90 put down on the same dyno to compare OEM RWD to xDelete's RWD conversion. Of course most raw dyno data should be taken with a grain of salt, but this particular dyno that measures drivetrain losses is an interesting and very appropriate choice for this sort of test so kudos to xDelete for that extra level of thoroughness. Also interesting (and mildly reassuring?) is that their baseline/crank numbers are very similar.

If this is real, one has to question why it isn't blasted all over their website and literature. Hell, with guys willing to spend $500-1000 on an intake for 0-5hp gains, it would only make sense to push the narrative that you can make upwards of 30hp with a $150 flash. The fact that they don't probably suggests it's either not realistic, not consistent, or it even surprised them so much that they feared the backlash from over-promising and [potentially] under-delivering if/when these results weren't replicable.

FYI, I've been considering xDelete, but I haven't pulled the trigger (yet) so I can't comment on the actual drivability of it.

[deviantspeed]

Originally Posted by LYTSOUT

I think the answer is probably both yes and no. Obviously there's no power added, but there is (at least in theory) less power lost.

I think this may have been discussed earlier in this thread, but here it is again: xDelete published this youtube video showing a dyno with gains of 28hp after being flashed from AWD to RWD (on a "mildly" tuned E90...whatever that means!) due to reduced drivetrain losses. How real or replicable this is is probably debatable, but it at least suggests the theory is relevant. It would've been nice to see what sort of numbers an OEM RWD E90 put down on the same dyno to compare OEM RWD to xDelete's RWD conversion. Of course most raw dyno data should be taken with a grain of salt, but this particular dyno that measures drivetrain losses is an interesting and very appropriate choice for this sort of test so kudos to xDelete for that extra level of thoroughness. Also interesting (and mildly reassuring?) is that their baseline/crank numbers are very similar.



If this is real, one has to question why it isn't blasted all over their website and literature. Hell, with guys willing to spend $500-1000 on an intake for 0-5hp gains, it would only make sense to push the narrative that you can make upwards of 30hp with a $150 flash. The fact that they don't probably suggests it's either not realistic, not consistent, or it even surprised them so much that they feared the backlash from over-promising and [potentially] under-delivering if/when these results weren't replicable.

FYI, I've been considering xDelete, but I haven't pulled the trigger (yet) so I can't comment on the actual drivability of it.

It decouples 40% from the front wheels. What's so hard to understand Mr. P-Car owner?

[LYTSOUT]

Originally Posted by deviantspeed

It decouples 40% from the front wheels. What's so hard to understand Mr. P-Car owner?

I never suggested it was difficult to understand. I was simply helping explain that the original question doesn't have an entirely straightforward answer. Does it "add" horsepower? The answer is both no and yes. No, not to the system. Yes, to the rear wheels.

The interesting part is the dyno and why, assuming it's real/replicable, it's not heavily advertised b/c that would be a huge selling point. That suggests to me that it's not entirely real/replicable.

And since you seem to prefer formal greetings, the correct one would actually be Dr. P-Car owner

[Skyhigh]

Originally Posted by LYTSOUT

If this is real, one has to question why it isn't blasted all over their website and literature. Hell, with guys willing to spend $500-1000 on an intake for 0-5hp gains, it would only make sense to push the narrative that you can make upwards of 30hp with a $150 flash. The fact that they don't probably suggests it's either not realistic, not consistent, or it even surprised them so much that they feared the backlash from over-promising and [potentially] under-delivering if/when these results weren't replicable...

See, when someone says "what is so difficult to understand", at least in my experience, this means they haven't asked themselves a single question about the topic and haven't challenged themselves enough, to realise that nothing is ever as simple as it looks

And this is where your question (and answer) is spot on!
Why would the developers not exploit this gold-mine if it was really true and "that simple"?

The answer is indeed "simple" - because it ain't true

Or, better said, it is absolutely true in general (not necessarily the exact numbers) on the dyno! But wait a second - what is different between the dyno and the real world one might (and should!) ask....

Look carefully at the video and think about that..... you will see it... it is right there! Wait - that is - the front wheels are not turning at all!! Is this how you ride, front wheels static? Of course not. There is the key difference and where the explanation is!

So what does it take to displace (or rotate) something? Power! So where does the necessary power to spin not just the front wheels but literally everything that there is to spin in the front drive-train come from? That's right - the engine!

So whether that power goes
Engine - Transfer case - FW and RW drivetrain (xDrive)
OR
Engine - RW drivetrain - Road - FW drivetrain (RWD)

You still require the same amount of power to spin the same mechanical components either way! There goes your loss, irrespective of which way the power is transferred.

And this is why you only "gain" wheel power on a dyno, not on the road.
(of course stock RWD have less components to "drive", but this is not true for xDelete RWD vehicles)

What is so difficult to understand?

[deviantspeed]

Originally Posted by LYTSOUT

I never suggested it was difficult to understand. I was simply helping explain that the original question doesn't have an entirely straightforward answer. Does it "add" horsepower? The answer is both no and yes. No, not to the system. Yes, to the rear wheels.

The interesting part is the dyno and why, assuming it's real/replicable, it's not heavily advertised b/c that would be a huge selling point. That suggests to me that it's not entirely real/replicable.

And since you seem to prefer formal greetings, the correct one would actually be Dr. P-Car owner

Oh, you got me there! I like Dr. P-Car owner.

At least you know the term P-Car, I'm an ex-owner.

Oh and yeah, I'm brash, and I stated the comment on difficult to understand It's like decoupling the rear axle in an alltrack to make it *gasp* pure FWD.

[deviantspeed]

Originally Posted by Skyhigh

So whether that power goes
Engine - Transfer case - FW and RW drivetrain (xDrive)
OR
Engine - RW drivetrain - Road - FW drivetrain (RWD)
...


What is so difficult to understand?

You meant RW, not FW in the last line.

100% RWD, is exactly what you are describing, which changes driving dynamics.

I'm glad we agree!


What is so difficult to understand?

[Skyhigh]

Last line is correct.
In real life Front wheels and Rear wheels are always connected, together with all drivetrain components in-between.
Whether you choose to connect them via the transfer case or via a "belt" (the road) - you still have the same power loss.

It is only on a dyno you can fake it by not utilising the front drivetrain at all and impress people you reduced the loss by going xDelete and this is absolutely true... but unfortunately only on a dyno.

[Logicoeur]

Everyone, including me, sees a gain in mpg once they turn off xdrive so there is less power lost through the drive train than before xdelete. Less fuel is needed to move the same mass over a distance. This is even with my heavier foot to feel the lsd and 100% rwd in the nearby roundabout.

[Sigtran]

Well, less friction should mean some energy (fuel) saved. However, I suspect there would be no real life performance gain, since same engine power is now just distributed to rear wheels only - on wet you can even loose some performance due to less traction.

Anyhow, I am also considering buying xDelete, and my only issue, similar as Skyhigh, is xDelete AWD mode. We have been told that one of the reasons of long development of xDelete for F30 is vast of differences in xDrive software (or at least xDrive parameters) between models, years even within same model and year. There must be a reason why BMW did this? For example 335i from 2013 and my 2017 LCI 320d quite sure have different original xDrive sw setup, right?

But as I understand, after xDelete flashing, xDelete is not reading and modifying existing xDrive SW from each car but flashing SAME SW to every car, which makes me think that xDelete AWD might not so optimal for each car. So I am wondering how exaclty is this resolved in xDelete when turning AWD ON?

And since no backup option of original SW, wondering also on long run how this will affect long term car performance but also reliability.

[lens]

Originally Posted by Sigtran

Well, less friction should mean some energy (fuel) saved. However, I suspect there would be no real life performance gain, since same engine power is now just distributed to rear wheels only - on wet you can even loose some performance due to less traction.

Anyhow, I am also considering buying xDelete, and my only issue, similar as Skyhigh, is xDelete AWD mode. We have been told that one of the reasons of long development of xDelete for F30 is vast of differences in xDrive software (or at least xDrive parameters) between models, years even within same model and year. There must be a reason why BMW did this? For example 335i from 2013 and my 2017 LCI 320d quite sure have different original xDrive sw setup, right?

But as I understand, after xDelete flashing, xDelete is not reading and modifying existing xDrive SW from each car but flashing SAME SW to every car, which makes me think that xDelete AWD might not so optimal for each car. So I am wondering how exaclty is this resolved in xDelete when turning AWD ON?

And since no backup option of original SW, wondering also on long run how this will affect long term car performance but also reliability.

Scroll up a couple messages, I've already covered reliability.

Either way, most people will not keep cars past a certain mileage to ever get that far.

Nor will some ever push their cars to the limit to ever break anything, most people who run this usually use it as a daily, do burnouts, or do drags trip or street pulls.

[Sigtran]

I think reliability question shall be really covered only when few years pass, and this is OK.

However my main question is still open.

As I understand, during xDelete flashing, xDelete is not modifying existing xDrive SW from each car but flashing SAME SW to every car which makes me think that xDelete AWD might not so optimal for each car.

Or is it maybe during initial flashing xDelete AWD mode somehow adjusted for each car based on some info or even by reading existing code/parameters before and adjusting the flashing accordingly? OR?

[Logicoeur]

The same question over and over again, in different words. If you aren't going to purchase it, or believe the countless accounts of longevity then don't buy it. How many ways can the same question be answered?

[Sigtran]

Originally Posted by Logicoeur

The same question over and over again, in different words?

Yes, over and over because it isn't clearly answered and now already wondering why?

Why is so hard to provide clear answer to simple questions of where xDelete AWD code flashed into car comes from, is it customized for each car before flashing or same in each car/model?

[Logicoeur]

Originally Posted by Sigtran

Yes, over and over because it isn't clearly answered and now already wondering why?

Why is so hard to provide clear answer to simple questions of where xDelete AWD code flashed into car comes from, is it customized for each car before flashing or same in each car/model?

Probably proprietary knowledge. Divulge too much and lose revenue. If several iterations of xdrive over several years, and countless cars/users using the tool successfully is not enough then what else is a company to do? Give you the source code? I think not. They could simply be changing dynamic parameters to be static, eg 0/100 torque split all the time, vs values that direct the controller(s) to be dynamic (aka decide instaneously based on slip, or other values. Doing this sort of thing likely requires unencrypting to get read/write access to the necessary locations these values are stored,and so forth, encryption that BMW likely improves with each software update or model.

There aren't many ways you can explain these things to laymen that will make them understand. Their track record and customer reviews should be more than enough already.

[Skyhigh]

To me it remains a mystery why they chose not to make a backup of whatever is there from factory and flash it back on if and when the user wants to go back to Xdrive.
That is what we are all asking and wondering about and I see absolutely nothing wrong in asking questions about a product which comes with 0 liabilities.

Happy for users who buy just because the brochure says it is going to be great (again), but I am not one of them, and quite naturally I am not alone.

P.s. you are correct - in-service history says more than 1000 words. But let's not forget that the first summer for xDelete for F3X is upon us... the F3x xDelete in-service experience ist still very limited.

[Sigtran]

Originally Posted by Logicoeur

Probably proprietary knowledge. Divulge too much and lose revenue.

I was just asking for logic of flashing for AWD mode, not a source code or any proprietary info. If is is proprietary, they should just say so.

Btw, from xDelete FAQ:

Q: How do you do it?
A: We flash the xDrive ECU (called VGSG or LVM) with an altered dataset, to keep the transfer case clutch open all the time.


So what altered dataset actually means?

1) Is it just altering some "look-up parameter data table" but the original BMW xDrive SW logic remains intact?
This would mean xDelete AWD is keeping the original SW logic and hence it is expected that AWD quality and performance would be matching the original. I would have no doubts buying xDelete.

2) xDelete a completely new developed SW, fully replacing original BMW xDrive SW.
In this case, I just wish there was a way of easy, in app, backup of original SW, especially since, as opposed to E90, for F30 there is no much experience so far, since app on market just some 8-9 months as released just before winter season, so for sure not much xDelete AWD mode experience. Additionally, in my particular case, I doubt that even much less F30 LCI 320d experience cases with probably close to 0 winter experience, since mostly developed and used in USA for petrol engines or bigger diesel engines.
And winters can be very harsh in region where I live - I purchased xDrive with a reason, but wish to have possibility of RWD through other seasons...

[chowser51]

They’re not going to tell us. Buy it or don’t buy it. My F3X is old. I bought it and am willing to risk my car. Will switch back to awd this winter and report back.

[PBR91]

Thinking of getting xDrive as well for my 35d.

Is there any ESP/traction issue with the high torque of the 35d when only in RWD mode. I am talking about the ESP going a bit crazy because it is expecting the traction of an AWD car but only gets traction of the RWD? If that makes any sense?

Thanks

[LYTSOUT]

Originally Posted by RBT-Tuning

No, it does not make a backup. We do have every stock soft included in the App. BMW did not update the transfer case software for years now. We're monitoring that.

Originally Posted by Sigtran

I was just asking for logic of flashing for AWD mode, not a source code or any proprietary info. If is is proprietary, they should just say so.

Btw, from xDelete FAQ:

Q: How do you do it?
A: We flash the xDrive ECU (called VGSG or LVM) with an altered dataset, to keep the transfer case clutch open all the time.


So what altered dataset actually means?

1) Is it just altering some "look-up parameter data table" but the original BMW xDrive SW logic remains intact?
This would mean xDelete AWD is keeping the original SW logic and hence it is expected that AWD quality and performance would be matching the original. I would have no doubts buying xDelete.

2) xDelete a completely new developed SW, fully replacing original BMW xDrive SW.
In this case, I just wish there was a way of easy, in app, backup of original SW, especially since, as opposed to E90, for F30 there is no much experience so far, since app on market just some 8-9 months as released just before winter season, so for sure not much xDelete AWD mode experience. Additionally, in my particular case, I doubt that even much less F30 LCI 320d experience cases with probably close to 0 winter experience, since mostly developed and used in USA for petrol engines or bigger diesel engines.
And winters can be very harsh in region where I live - I purchased xDrive with a reason, but wish to have possibility of RWD through other seasons...

Sigtran scroll back up to post #401 (and the few posts before and after it). Skyhigh and I already exhausted this exact same discussion with RBT-Tuning

According to them, they have every single iteration of xDrive software for every single version of F3x. When you download the app to your phone, it recognizes your VIN and uses the appropriate OEM xDrive version (which they supposedly have on file) for your particular car. So while it's not a back-up of what's on your car, it's (supposedly) the exact same version that BMW loaded onto it in the first place.

At least that's my understanding of what they were getting at after trying to piece together all of their relatively vague responses. If that's really the case, I'm not sure why they don't just come out and say it exactly like that in plain English for all of us to understand...if they did, I'm sure it'd clear up a lot of the confusion over this relatively important topic. Personally, I'm reasonably satisfied with that answer. I haven't loaded the software yet, but I do plan to at some point this summer. I'm just too busy doing brakes, FMIC, DP, and flashing my BM3 to Stage 2 to be worrying about introducing another huge variable at this time. Hope this helps.