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      09-19-2015, 03:25 AM   #1
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OT: WTF Audi, Cheating in emission tests

http://www.cnet.com/news/volkswagen-...issions-tests/

I've heard rumours about this, but can't believe they actually did it!
Never liked Audi, crap reliability, rubbish CVT gearbox, and now they are train to kill us with the devil fuel, I wonder if other manufacturers have to stoop to this level?
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      09-19-2015, 03:36 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mssond View Post
http://www.cnet.com/news/volkswagen-...issions-tests/

I've heard rumours about this, but can't believe they actually did it!
Never liked Audi, crap reliability, rubbish CVT gearbox, and now they are train to kill us with the devil fuel, I wonder if other manufacturers have to stoop to this level?
It's not Audi, it's the VAG Group as a whole and applies to the US market which have different rules to us. I expect other manufactures have done it too.
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      09-19-2015, 04:09 AM   #3
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Love to see this one on Watchdog.



"With a maximum possible fine of $37,500 per vehicle, VW and Audi could be looking at up to $18 billion in fines."

Gotta love the Americans for their immoderate comments.
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      09-19-2015, 04:26 AM   #4
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So are BMW just far more skilled at making cars produce less emissions, or have BMW done the same to their vehicles.

Last edited by teaston; 09-19-2015 at 04:55 AM..
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      09-19-2015, 04:48 AM   #5
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All manufacturers cheat or adjust values as works out best.

It's business nothing is honest.
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      09-19-2015, 05:10 AM   #6
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I expect this is rife in the industry and possibly one of the reasons why manufacturers make their disclaimers regarding real-world driving not delivering test cycle mpg.
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      09-19-2015, 05:49 AM   #7
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They all do it, hence regardless how I try I can never get near the best mpg figure let alone the combined.
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      09-19-2015, 06:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaston View Post
So are BMW just far more skilled at making cars produce less emissions, or have BMW done the same to their vehicles.
Besides the NEDC test 'rule's not being realistic for real world driving, there is scope within the rules to obtain better figures. There is criticism and reports of manipulation of the test and the data (like the road load), which favours good headline figures.

Read reports like "Mind the Gap", published by Transport and Environment, which give a good idea of how the test system can be used (and is used) by the manufacturers.

Even the new system, "The World Light Duty Test Cycle (WLTC)" under development (originally to be implemented in 2016) is not looking too promising, from what I read.

It is a hot potato, no one in the related industries want to see emission ratings increasing, let alone by up to 30% in some cases.

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      09-19-2015, 07:01 AM   #9
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As highlighted above the European cycle isn't reflective of real life

70 km/h in 41 s

You try going go 43mph in 41s in real life

The gearing ratio is also adjusted to reflect this

You'll be a danger for going that slowly in a busy road

So it's all BS
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      09-19-2015, 07:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjlees View Post
They all do it, hence regardless how I try I can never get near the best mpg figure let alone the combined.
Some of us used to be able to exceed the combined figures, go problem at all in easy driving conditions. But as the years have gone by the mpg shortfall is definitely increasing. I can't get to the combined figure (long term) in my current F11 535i, (about 8% shortfall) whereas my 1998 540i exceeded the combined figure (long term) by over 25%. My 2006 E91 330d came in just on the combined figure during its 6+ years with me.

In my experience VW (VAG) diesels have been some of the best and efficient diesel engines for getting excellent mpg figures. So easy to exceed combined figures with the 1.9 TDI based engines. Even motorway driving at 70mph would return the extra urban figures, no effort at all. A B5 Passat 110 TDI would return 60mpg without any problem. Latest emission controls have eroded that potential.

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      09-19-2015, 09:27 AM   #11
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Looks like VAG has now been ordered to recall half a million vehicles in the US. Will be interesting to see how many other manufacturers get embroiled in this.
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      09-19-2015, 02:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Some of us used to be able to exceed the combined figures, go problem at all in easy driving conditions. But as the years have gone by the mpg shortfall is definitely increasing. I can't get to the combined figure (long term) in my current F11 535i, (about 8% shortfall) whereas my 1998 540i exceeded the combined figure (long term) by over 25%. My 2006 E91 330d came in just on the combined figure during its 6+ years with me.

In my experience VW (VAG) diesels have been some of the best and efficient diesel engines for getting excellent mpg figures. So easy to exceed combined figures with the 1.9 TDI based engines. Even motorway driving at 70mph would return the extra urban figures, no effort at all. A B5 Passat 110 TDI would return 60mpg without any problem. Latest emission controls have eroded that potential.

HighlandPete
The euro 6 emissions have a lot to answer for, however 2l diesels official figures still seem to be heading well north of 70mpg with less and less CO2. They have now got the autos (well at least BMW have) achieving better emissions.
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      09-19-2015, 02:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjlees View Post
The euro 6 emissions have a lot to answer for, however 2l diesels official figures still seem to be heading well north of 70mpg with less and less CO2. They have now got the autos (well at least BMW have) achieving better emissions.
The biggest issue as I see it, is the fact the manufacturers are apparently "using the test", (it happened with the previous test regime), hence the NEDC (emphasis on "New" European Driving Cycle, updated back in 1997).

Back in 1997 the test was pretty realistic, but as time has passed, it has allowed manufacturers to develop their cars to get better results within the test, just as before. Remember the old system where there were 56 & 75mph cycles in the test. We had cars which had amazing mpg at 56mph, but had poor driveability around that figure, even flat spots in power delivery, clearly tuned to the test, not real world driving.

I was talking with a guy last week who has tested one of Ford's new 3-cylinder engine models, which officially gives pretty impressive consumption results. He was saying driven on the motorway at 70mph it was only returning about 35mpg. Illustrates the chasm between the official test and real world driving. MPG shortfall has increased, back in 2001 it was an average of around 7%, continuously increasing over the years to an average of about 30% in 2013.

EU6 just adds to the complexity, and more doubts on how accurate or realistic mpg is against the official tests. There are questions about how efficient the latest BMW "B series" engines are, the 2.0d (190) is being criticised as many users are finding less fuel efficiency in the real world, in the 5-series. Time will show if this applies across the model ranges, or more a "big car, small engine" issue.

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      09-19-2015, 05:10 PM   #14
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Quite a stunning set of figures being announced. 1/2 M is a log of recall. The fine will be absolutely massive.

Europe and RoW to be confirmed too. But of a dent into VAG figures this year. Oh no.
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      09-19-2015, 05:24 PM   #15
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Looks like could in 'theory' be 18bn

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...s-testing.html

However doubt they will be that draconian.

Also the paper is likely mixing get up individual fines with corporate.


Will be interesting to see how other countries react on this, if any rest eating is required.

Also China can be a strange character on tests and authorisation.


Then of course do VW know of other manufacturers that do similar, if so will they spill the beans.
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      09-20-2015, 04:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
The biggest issue as I see it, is the fact the manufacturers are apparently "using the test", (it happened with the previous test regime), hence the NEDC (emphasis on "New" European Driving Cycle, updated back in 1997).

Back in 1997 the test was pretty realistic, but as time has passed, it has allowed manufacturers to develop their cars to get better results within the test, just as before. Remember the old system where there were 56 & 75mph cycles in the test. We had cars which had amazing mpg at 56mph, but had poor driveability around that figure, even flat spots in power delivery, clearly tuned to the test, not real world driving.

I was talking with a guy last week who has tested one of Ford's new 3-cylinder engine models, which officially gives pretty impressive consumption results. He was saying driven on the motorway at 70mph it was only returning about 35mpg. Illustrates the chasm between the official test and real world driving. MPG shortfall has increased, back in 2001 it was an average of around 7%, continuously increasing over the years to an average of about 30% in 2013.

EU6 just adds to the complexity, and more doubts on how accurate or realistic mpg is against the official tests. There are questions about how efficient the latest BMW "B series" engines are, the 2.0d (190) is being criticised as many users are finding less fuel efficiency in the real world, in the 5-series. Time will show if this applies across the model ranges, or more a "big car, small engine" issue.

HighlandPete
Yes remember the 56/76 flat spots well!

Engines are generally becoming more efficient, but not as much as car makers are suggesting. My OH last mini r56 cooper S was achieving around 34mpg long term, and latest roadster with more power is getting 37-38 mpg average after the initial 8k.. But the combined sits well north of 46mpg

The other issue with modern cars is the amount of kit as standard and optional extras which all add weight. A 335d starts off at 1705kg and I suspect after a light ticking of the options list adds another 100kg or so - this type of weight must really blunt the mpg figures

At some point I may take off all these emissions things and have a remap for better fuel comsumption (and probably end up failing the MOT!)
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      09-21-2015, 03:42 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjlees View Post
...The other issue with modern cars is the amount of kit as standard and optional extras which all add weight. A 335d starts off at 1705kg and I suspect after a light ticking of the options list adds another 100kg or so - this type of weight must really blunt the mpg figures...
The added weight works against real world figures as the test is set for an unrealistic light use. Even with the 'road load' being calculated for the test, moving the weight/mass in the real world uses much more fuel, both for speed and at our typical acceleration rates. (We are not always most efficient, or over accelerate and brake too much).

Options will also skew the results. I know in my own case options like the panoramic roof, Adaptive Drive and full electric seats will blunt mpg figures, compared to a base example. Both the weight and added energy consumption take their toll.

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      09-21-2015, 04:03 AM   #18
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The cars are u doubtlessly becoming more efficient.. My E46 330d auto did 32mpg in my time with it, compared to 39mpg for its E90 equivalent. That my F31 with well over 100bhp more, more weight, and AWD frictional losses still does 5mpg more than said E46 is quite amazing to me.
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      09-21-2015, 04:05 AM   #19
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On another slightly different note, I wonder if this is the next potential twist in the VW boardroom battle saga... Just the ammo Piech needs to oust Winterkorn?
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      09-21-2015, 04:59 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengocity View Post
The cars are u doubtlessly becoming more efficient.. My E46 330d auto did 32mpg in my time with it, compared to 39mpg for its E90 equivalent. That my F31 with well over 100bhp more, more weight, and AWD frictional losses still does 5mpg more than said E46 is quite amazing to me.
Agree we have definitely moved on with efficiency. What the issue is, we are seeing over optimistic figures, which are the source of the feeling of a con by users. Creates one of the biggest 'complaints' post bags.

Even your own examples, we see some thing like a 14% shortfall with the E46, the F31 is showing something like 25%. No problem if the headline figures were more realistic, but so many users are expecting more.

Say for example someone has not changed their driving pattern and years back achieved the combined figures, now they are feeling deceived that the mpg figures are not achievable in their driving pattern.

Take your car, if that had a combined figure of something like 42 - 43mpg, would mean it is more comparable to cars going through the test a few years ago. Of course it is not that simple, as features like start-stop, neutral idle control, coasting and intelligent alternators don't help some users much, if at all. But sure does help the official test regime to get headline figures.

Then add in the emissions values, how test figures don't reflect real use and we have a major misinformation issue.

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      09-21-2015, 06:03 AM   #21
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As soon as there's a measure against which manufacturers can compete there'll be abuse of the system. Things will be pushed to the limit of their interpretation and cars will be built to deliver the right results for the tests. It's basic human nature. I'm not sure anything can be done to fix it since the problem is that the measure (mpg in this case) becomes the target and not something that matters (drivability, real-world fuel consumption). Sites like Fuelly are the only place to get realistic views of mpg - but even they're not perfect.

It's not just cars of course - look at hospital waiting lists, GCSE exam performance, school league tables - all manipulated to look good whilst not actually offering anything better than what went before!
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      09-21-2015, 07:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdk42 View Post
As soon as there's a measure against which manufacturers can compete there'll be abuse of the system. Things will be pushed to the limit of their interpretation and cars will be built to deliver the right results for the tests. It's basic human nature. I'm not sure anything can be done to fix it since the problem is that the measure (mpg in this case) becomes the target and not something that matters (drivability, real-world fuel consumption). Sites like Fuelly are the only place to get realistic views of mpg - but even they're not perfect.

It's not just cars of course - look at hospital waiting lists, GCSE exam performance, school league tables - all manipulated to look good whilst not actually offering anything better than what went before!
Good post, sums it up.

BTW, the whole VW issue is blowing up at the present, hitting the main media. Share price has fallen, VW's latest push into America has fallen flat on its face.

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