[KevRyd]

What a silly analogy. So what you are saying is that the workers in the production facility have more fun building manual cars?

There are just as many "Nanny" controls in MT's as there are in AT's, in fact with the exception of the clutch and 2 less gears..........you get the point.

Kevin

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

BMWs and all cars are relying more and more on electronics and keep taking away involvement from the driver.

Keeping a manual in an F30 helps counteract all of that.

You can have a beautiful healthy baby from in-vetro fertilization. Or you can make a baby the old fashioned way-you know with more INVOLVEMENT.

I know which way is more fun

[phx08]

Originally Posted by noro

The manual will always be the enthusiast's choice. If you can't understand why you are not an enthusiast.

Originally Posted by noro

You missed the point. I am not saying that if you dislike manual you are not an enthusiast, I merely stating that if you do not understand how manual and automatic gear boxes differ and the difference in how that power makes its way from the motion of the crank to the motion of the wheels then it's hard to call yourself an enthusiast.

Wine tasting enthusiast isn't one that just likes to get loaded on wine.

So because someone doesn’t understand the mechanism of an MT they aren’t considered an enthusiast? What if they understand the mechanism of AT? You confuse me, sir.


I declare because you do not understand the operational synergy between technology and hardware, you are not an enthusiast.

[phx08]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

What a silly analogy. So what you are saying is that the workers in the production facility have more fun building manual cars?

There are just as many "Nanny" controls in MT's as there are in AT's, in fact with the exception of the clutch and 2 less gears..........you get the point.

Kevin

I don't know, Kevin. Maybe you and I just appreciate engineering more than others. That makes us engineering enthusiasts right...right? The new DSG transmissions are marvelous.


On a side note: LOOK at what you've done JK479.

[bosz]

None of the super cars of the world come in manual, they're all auto only (Veyron, GTR, Aventador, Most Ferraris, koenigsegg Agera, Pagani etc)

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by LAnderson23

Order a manual. At the very least, it's one more person to convince BMW to keep offering them. I fear they are going away. They already don't offer it on the x-drives for some reason. I test drove the AT, and I hated it. MT it is for me.

I ordered 2 in the last year....

[nicknaz]

Historically, 3 pedal manual version was faster but these days tables are turned in some cars (like the F30)

Biggest benefits for me of the new generation automatics are:
- no loss in brake pedal pressure when downshifting under max effort braking (I would always lose a bit of pedal pressure on the brake when I rotated my foot over to blip the throttle)
- for dual clutch gearboxes especially, ability to shift gears mid corner without fear of breaking traction or upsetting the car
- ability to learn new route faster by letting the computer shift gears and focusing on the more important stuff like learning the markers

Wish I was a pro squeezing out hundreds of a second from a purpose built machine but the reality is that I'm an average guy having fun in my daily driver so I'll happily take any tech that enables me to achieve more speed, including 8 speed sport auto and 7 speed DCT

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

What a silly analogy. So what you are saying is that the workers in the production facility have more fun building manual cars?

There are just as many "Nanny" controls in MT's as there are in AT's, in fact with the exception of the clutch and 2 less gears..........you get the point.

Kevin

Lighten up-it's a joke.

Fact is, anyone can get into a two pedal car and drive it reasonably well, whether it be a GTR or a damn Veyron.

A 3 pedal car takes skill and every one is a bit different. I drove my friends DeLorean in a parade Sunday, he said I was the only one he trusted to drive it. To hop in, drive off, no stalls, no grinding, know how to get in and out of reverse, then hop in a variety of other cars all in one day-it's special.

Pressing in a clutch pedal, feeling the catch point, nailing a smooth shift-that is a defining experience that an auto cannot and will not duplicate.

[dc503]

I guess I'll pat myself on the back for being able to drive a manual...

[KevRyd]

There is a lot more to driving than feeling the clutch point and making smooth shifts. getting the power down to the road is only halk the battle.

So I'll leave it at this:

Do F1 cars have physical clutches?

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Lighten up-it's a joke.

Fact is, anyone can get into a two pedal car and drive it reasonably well, whether it be a GTR or a damn Veyron.

A 3 pedal car takes skill and every one is a bit different. I drove my friends DeLorean in a parade Sunday, he said I was the only one he trusted to drive it. To hop in, drive off, no stalls, no grinding, know how to get in and out of reverse, then hop in a variety of other cars all in one day-it's special.

Pressing in a clutch pedal, feeling the catch point, nailing a smooth shift-that is a defining experience that an auto cannot and will not duplicate.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Pressing in a clutch pedal, feeling the catch point, nailing a smooth shift-that is a defining experience that an auto cannot and will not duplicate.

On the flip side, there are things like mid corner downshift into 1st gear in a mid engined car with no chassis drama or pulling ahead one car length when the other guy has to press the clutch and move the shift lever that new tech such as PDK/DCT enables

Guess it boils down to the defining experiences that the owner would like to have.

Hurray for choice

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

There is a lot more to driving than feeling the clutch point and making smooth shifts. getting the power down to the road is only halk the battle.

So I'll leave it at this:

Do F1 cars have physical clutches?

LOL, the cliche of bringing f1 cars into the debate.

I never claimed about what is fastest, one would think an F1 car is designed and engineered around what is fastest capably possible.

Fact is, I like that there are cars in my stable never offered in anything other than a manual, I enjoy articles where someone is car-jacked and it gets foiled when the robber learns the car is a stick and is unable to drive it.

2 pedal setups are only going to get better while the manual is likely not going to be improved over it's zenith from the past few decades.

Does not mean I am going to enjoy it any less.

Originally Posted by nicknaz

On the flip side, there are things like mid corner downshift into 1st gear in a mid engined car with no chassis drama or pulling ahead one car length when the other guy has to press the clutch and move the shift lever that new tech such as PDK/DCT enables

Guess it boils down to the defining experiences that the owner would like to have.

Hurray for choice

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Do F1 cars have physical clutches?

Nope, when you chop the roof and fenders off of your car, ditch the starter, add a roll cage and replace nearly all metal bits with carbon fiber, let's continue this fascinating comparison. Bonus points if you get your redline up to around 18k rpm and if the engine will stall under about 8k.

[KevRyd]

What point are you trying to make, F1 cars rev higher so they need AT's.

Line up a stock MT Vs. AT and see which one wins, that is all!

Car makers are investing $0.00 to develop Manual transmissions and frankly the technology has not changed very much over the last 10-15 years.

Npot sure how I got drawn into this as I also like MT's just not in the face of this 8AT.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Nope, when you chop the roof and fenders off of your car, ditch the starter, add a roll cage and replace nearly all metal bits with carbon fiber, let's continue this fascinating comparison. Bonus points if you get your redline up to around 18k rpm and if the engine will stall under about 8k.

[ft1338]

Originally Posted by JK479

Just curious if people are finding the f30 as sporty with a manual as the new 8 speed sport auto.

In terms of performance, does the 6 speed keep up with the 8 speed. I've read that mileage suffers a little. But those who are diehard manual drivers, can you convince a once diehard 6 speed owner if moving to a 6 speed on the f30 is a chance worth taking.

I know this topic has been beaten to death. On mobile I can't search forums. In my heart of hearts I just can't decide.

To me a bmw used to be the ultimate driving machine because of the 6 speed manual. Today? I'm not sure anymore. I've driven both. Maybe if I can't decide, I need another brand?

I can tell you this, in countries in Europe where 99.9999999% of cars are manuals, enthusiasts are starting to take notice of the BMW 8 speed auto. I'm one of them. I believe auto can definitely be an enthusiast choice.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Line up a stock MT Vs. AT and see which one wins, that is all!

Okay, how about a Viper vs 335i?

I know what you're getting at, but which is more fun, a Cayman with a manual or a GT-R? Just, good, honest fun. If magazine numbers are all you're after, than it's an easy choice, but if actual driving enjoyment is something you consider, it's a little trickier.

If sponsors were buying my car for me and I could earn money by shaving hundredths of a second, I'd take a PDK/DSG, but if I were going to buy my own car, to enjoy, in daily driving and track conditions, it will have three pedals.

Choice is a beautiful thing, and as BMW increasingly decides to take that choice away, I will look elsewhere. (Note that my wife doesn't give two cents about this discussion.)

[ft1338]

Originally Posted by noro

The manual will always be the enthusiast's choice. If you can't understand why you are not an enthusiast.

And what kind of enthusiast are you to judge other enthusiasts based on your definition of an enthusiast. Seriously...

[KevRyd]

Buy a MT and enjoy it, I think even you will admit that as a DD in traffic MT can be a pain.

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Okay, how about a Viper vs 335i?

I know what you're getting at, but which is more fun, a Cayman with a manual or a GT-R? Just, good, honest fun. If magazine numbers are all you're after, than it's an easy choice, but if actual driving enjoyment is something you consider, it's a little trickier.

If sponsors were buying my car for me and I could earn money by shaving hundredths of a second, I'd take a PDK/DSG, but if I were going to buy my own car, to enjoy, in daily driving and track conditions, it will have three pedals.

Choice is a beautiful thing, and as BMW increasingly decides to take that choice away, I will look elsewhere. (Note that my wife doesn't give two cents about this discussion.)

[phx08]

I think the F1 comparison was made based off of the assumption that BMW enthusiasts have speed and performance aligned with them. Again, you guys really need to clarify what makes an enthusiast a TRUE “enthusiast”. Speed? Auto. Performance? Auto. Molesting the car? Ermm..If you're into that, Manual. Less distraction? Auto. I can keep going.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Buy a MT and enjoy it, I think even you will admit that as a DD in traffic MT can be a pain.

Not really, walking is more difficult than just pushing my chair around with my feet, but I still do it. I've lived in Dallas and LA, sat in plenty of traffic and driven plenty of things with heavy clutches.

An automatic would have been easier, perhaps, but so would public transit. I like manuals, I don't really care if they're faster or slower. A number of cars are quicker than what I generally buy for similar money.

[phx08]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Okay, how about a Viper vs 335i?

I know what you're getting at, but which is more fun, a Cayman with a manual or a GT-R? Just, good, honest fun. If magazine numbers are all you're after, than it's an easy choice, but if actual driving enjoyment is something you consider, it's a little trickier.

If sponsors were buying my car for me and I could earn money by shaving hundredths of a second, I'd take a PDK/DSG, [b]but if I were going to buy my own car, to enjoy, in daily driving and track conditions, it will have three pedals.[b]

Choice is a beautiful thing, and as BMW increasingly decides to take that choice away, I will look elsewhere. (Note that my wife doesn't give two cents about this discussion.)

BOOM, there ya go. You have defined what is important to you and are going to go with what you like.

However, its baseless to call others "non- enthusiasts" (like others have said in the thread *cough* noro *cough*) just because their criteria are not aligned with a manual tranny
__________________________________

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by phx08

BOOM, there ya go. You have defined what is important to you and are going to go with what you like.

However, its baseless to call others "non- enthusiasts" (like others have said in the thread *cough* noro *cough*) just because their criteria are not aligned with a manual tranny
__________________________________

I'm just going to point out that I wasn't calling anyone names. I just took the F1 comparison to be silly.

I don't go home each night and tell me wife she's stupid for buying an automatic. I get it. I don't mind driving her car. Much like a 3er, it works great with an automatic.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Do F1 cars have physical clutches?

Why yes, they do. F1 cars are Sequential Manuals, not to be confused with "Steptronic Automatics" like most luxury cars, including BMW.