[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by JustChris

My man maths don't stretch to -£12k that's a harsh starting point to roll into a new deal.

Hmmm, I'm guessing your man maths has got you very very close in the past. Man maths can get rid of any number, maybe even £12k!!!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Hmmm, I'm guessing your man maths has got you very very close in the past. Man maths can get rid of any number, maybe even £12k!!!

It is easy… if the man maths equation includes the letters PCP.

[teaston]

Originally Posted by JD6

Without knowing much about car finance, it does seem very unlikely that the Audi dealer and finance company would be naive enough to create a deal which allows a buyer to get rid of £12k of negative equity on the old car simply by rejecting the new car. There would be a queue outside the dealership of people waiting to take them up on this generous offer!

But for their plan to work, the car would have to have a manufacturing defect worthy of rejecting, which would be quite a long shot!

However, I still don’t think that £12k will have disappeared, the dealers would surely have protected themselves from losing that somehow.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by AyrshireColin

Yeah I perhaps framed it wrong. I know 100% how can you be £12k in negative equity.....you drive away from the garage and the VAT is away!

No it isn't, VAT is an integral part of the vehicle cost and its value therein, it's a complete myth that you lose the VAT element of the sale price when you drive off the forecourt, you may lose more, you may lose less, you may even make money if it's a GT Porsche, either way it has nothing to do with VAT.

[scottc]

Having rejected my m4 last year after 8,months you can do it and it's even easier in the first 30 days. If they have the car and you have a loan car it's even easier, just write the dealer and the finance company a letter including the text from the consumer rights article and stating you are rejecting the car and will be leaving it with them. Don't accept it back under any circumstances... Hand one of the letters to the dealer principle and send the other to the finance company, then ring the finance company informing them. (before they get the letter)

Now there is another way, I didn't inform the finance company as I got BMW customer services to do it, I emailed the md of bmw who's management team picked it up and dealt with me. They were very good and handled the finance company and the dealer.

Be patient as it takes quite along time and stick to your guns, they will try and fight you but remember it's your consumer right to reject a faulty product!

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by scottc

Having rejected my m4 last year after 8,months you can do it and it's even easier in the first 30 days. If they have the car and you have a loan car it's even easier, just write the dealer and the finance company a letter including the text from the consumer rights article and stating you are rejecting the car and will be leaving it with them. Don't accept it back under any circumstances... Hand one of the letters to the dealer principle and send the other to the finance company, then ring the finance company informing them. (before they get the letter)

Now there is another way, I didn't inform the finance company as I got BMW customer services to do it, I emailed the md of bmw who's management team picked it up and dealt with me. They were very good and handled the finance company and the dealer.

Be patient as it takes quite along time and stick to your guns, they will try and fight you but remember it's your consumer right to reject a faulty product!

Hi Scott, did you detail the issues with the car on the forum? It was a bit of a lemon I presume.

Good to see you got out of it.

[scottc]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Hi Scott, did you detail the issues with the car on the forum? It was a bit of a lemon I presume.

Good to see you got out of it.

Hi mate,

I had to be careful as I didn't want BMW to see me shouting about all the issues online however I did detail a number of the issues I had.

For example

The car spent the 8 weeks out of the first 12 weeks of ownership at the dealer with it spending a total of 10 weeks approx in the dealer. I had knocking rear suspension which could not be fixed even after replacing pretty much the entire rear end, I had loads of rattles, a faulty fuel pump which caused it to break down and need a recovery truck. I lost confidence in it and even bmw admitted they couldn't fix the suspension.. They also hinted that M owners were quite fussy which I think meant I was being fussy

Dealer was very good and so was customer service, if there is one thing I learnt and that is keep the dealer onside but stick to you guns and be patient

[ZeroFx]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I can see an X6 being in big negative equity. My 440i is at £4k, and if I hadn't put a big deposit down I think our Q7 would at about £10k now at a year old. We're not getting rid though, so after time it evens out.

What I can't understand is why anyone would trade in a car with £12k negative equity. An A7 may be a little cheaper monthly, but with the £12k in the price it will be as much or more per month.

For every extra thousand you add on to your car, it costs roughly £23 a month per £1,000. Adding £12k in negative equity is like adding £12k of options to a car.

Whatever his monthly cost is, roughy £250-300 of it every month is just paying for his old car that's gone. Mental.

How does a person that you know personally, given your strong views on car financing, end up in a position like this?!?!

He wastes incredible money on cars changing them every year. But its his companies money so im guessing the accountant is creative one way or another.

The X6 has carbon pack on it and all sorts of stuff which is why it had 12k neg.

The A7 is a 3.0 bi turbo highly specced so list is pretty high.

If he can clean the slate then hes better off rejecting the car and starting again on a car with full discount.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by scottc

Hi mate,

I had to be careful as I didn't want BMW to see me shouting about all the issues online however I did detail a number of the issues I had.

For example

The car spent the 8 weeks out of the first 12 weeks of ownership at the dealer with it spending a total of 10 weeks approx in the dealer. I had knocking rear suspension which could not be fixed even after replacing pretty much the entire rear end, I had loads of rattles, a faulty fuel pump which caused it to break down and need a recovery truck. I lost confidence in it and even bmw admitted they couldn't fix the suspension.. They also hinted that M owners were quite fussy which I think meant I was being fussy

Dealer was very good and so was customer service, if there is one thing I learnt and that is keep the dealer onside but stick to you guns and be patient

You were well rid of that then! It's weird that they all go down the same line yet every now and then they make a Friday afternoon car.

Really ruins the experience and at that price level that really matters we have every right to be fussy.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by ZeroFx

He wastes incredible money on cars changing them every year. But its his companies money so im guessing the accountant is creative one way or another.

The X6 has carbon pack on it and all sorts of stuff which is why it had 12k neg.

The A7 is a 3.0 bi turbo highly specced so list is pretty high.

If he can clean the slate then hes better off rejecting the car and starting again on a car with full discount.

I have no further comment on the finance, but if he can get another A7 biturbo I'd recommend it. I had an A6 biturbo, loved it. All the power of a 40d, quattro and speakers in the exhaust itself that make it sound great from the outside.

You could accelerate from anywhere at any angle and it stuck. Plus launch control was way better than the 440i. Less exciting at top end, and maybe a little fake, but great fun and luxurious at the same time, I'd have another.

[NotGotABimmer23]

I didn't think they did a bit turbo diesel a6/7 now. The old 340bhp engine is gone, it's a single turbo 286ps 3L job in the 50tdi and thats the most powerful diesel they offer.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by kylemacca01

I didn't think they did a bit turbo diesel a6/7 now. The old 340bhp engine is gone, it's a single turbo 286ps 3L job in the 50tdi and thats the most powerful diesel they offer.

Just looked, there's no biturbo diesel, you're right.

There is a 340 bhp 55 TFSI instead. Can't see them relaunching the biturbo diesel if they're promoting that.

In the last generation the biturbo diesel killed the 3 litre petrol sales and they had to discontinue it.

The 55 TFSI is the same price as the 50 Tdi. I hate the new numbering. Clear as mud.

[AyrshireColin]

Originally Posted by Wills2

No it isn't, VAT is an integral part of the vehicle cost and its value therein, it's a complete myth that you lose the VAT element of the sale price when you drive off the forecourt, you may lose more, you may lose less, you may even make money if it's a GT Porsche, either way it has nothing to do with VAT.

Yes it is. VAT is neither anything to do with the 'cost' of a vehicle or it's value.

As with any new goods purchased in the UK (from a VAT registered retailer) VAT is paid by the first buyer and then it is gone. On used goods you're dealing with the VAT margin scheme.

What all this means is that a new car at £50k - 20%/£10k of this is VAT that is collected by the VAT registered retailer and subsequently paid to the tax man. So the reality that your £50k car is a £40k car that is why you have such front loaded 'depreciation' on a new car......reality is that it's not depreciation it's the VAT plus some depreciation.

This is also the reason why pre-reg/delivery miles cars are cheaper as you are the second owner of the car and as such you are not liable for VAT. Second hand cars fall under the VAT margin scheme where the VAT is payable against the profit that the seller is making. The £50k car has been purchased by the dealership and they are liable for the VAT - it can't be charged again.

You give the example of a Porsche GT. You are 100% correct that you 'could' make money but that is 100% nothing to do with VAT that is to do with you owning and selling goods in a sellers marketplace where the desirability/exclusivity/demand dictates the value, when said Porsche GT was first purchased as new the VAT was paid. Say you went and bought a nice shiny new 911 GT3 RS at £140k (??) then £28k of what you pay is VAT, after 6 months you look to sell it on and the original dealer takes it off you and is willing to give you back your £140k because they have a buyer lined up who is willing to hand them £155k for the specific car. The £15k profit that the dealer is 'making' would be liable for 20% VAT under the VAT margin scheme.

It's not any sort of myth it's all 100% fact. Every car - or any other goods - is liable to depreciation and appreciation and the market dictates that but the VAT element is 20% of the original purchase price on new goods.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by AyrshireColin

Yes it is. VAT is neither anything to do with the 'cost' of a vehicle or it's value.

As with any new goods purchased in the UK (from a VAT registered retailer) VAT is paid by the first buyer and then it is gone. On used goods you're dealing with the VAT margin scheme.

What all this means is that a new car at £50k - 20%/£10k of this is VAT that is collected by the VAT registered retailer and subsequently paid to the tax man. So the reality that your £50k car is a £40k car that is why you have such front loaded 'depreciation' on a new car......reality is that it's not depreciation it's the VAT plus some depreciation.

This is also the reason why pre-reg/delivery miles cars are cheaper as you are the second owner of the car and as such you are not liable for VAT. Second hand cars fall under the VAT margin scheme where the VAT is payable against the profit that the seller is making. The £50k car has been purchased by the dealership and they are liable for the VAT - it can't be charged again.

You give the example of a Porsche GT. You are 100% correct that you 'could' make money but that is 100% nothing to do with VAT that is to do with you owning and selling goods in a sellers marketplace where the desirability/exclusivity/demand dictates the value, when said Porsche GT was first purchased as new the VAT was paid. Say you went and bought a nice shiny new 911 GT3 RS at £140k (??) then £28k of what you pay is VAT, after 6 months you look to sell it on and the original dealer takes it off you and is willing to give you back your £140k because they have a buyer lined up who is willing to hand them £155k for the specific car. The £15k profit that the dealer is 'making' would be liable for 20% VAT under the VAT margin scheme.

It's not any sort of myth it's all 100% fact. Every car - or any other goods - is liable to depreciation and appreciation and the market dictates that but the VAT element is 20% of the original purchase price on new goods.

But the value to you secondhand is determined by the fact that someone buying a new one has to pay VAT on it, so your secondhand value is effectively inflated by fact irrecoverable VAT (for most) has to be paid - so you dont actually lose all of it!

Which I think is what Wills is saying...

And the VAT on a secondhand car is something to do with the difference between the buy price and the sell price so not 20% of the total value....

[SilverGrey]

A £50k car minus the VAT is not £40k. It's £41.67k.

[AyrshireColin]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

But the value to you secondhand is determined by the fact that someone buying a new one has to pay VAT on it, so your secondhand value is effectively inflated by fact irrecoverable VAT (for most) has to be paid - so you dont actually lose all of it!

Which I think is what Wills is saying...

And the VAT on a secondhand car is something to do with the difference between the buy price and the sell price so not 20% of the total value....

Yeah you do lose all of it.......well you don't 'lose' it as such it's paid against the purchase of the new car, but it's gone.

VAT is only paid by the first purchaser of new goods. You can structure a deal, you can massage numbers and you can get to a place where you feel 100% happy with any deal but the VAT has already been paid and is gone.

VAT on second hand is only paid against the profit.

[AyrshireColin]

Originally Posted by SilverGrey

A £50k car minus the VAT is not £40k. It's £41.67k.

100% correct - my bad.

I don't think the numbers are all to relevant though.....it was more making the point re. VAT being paid. The actual numbers can be anything.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by AyrshireColin

100% correct - my bad.

I don't think the numbers are all to relevant though.....it was more making the point re. VAT being paid. The actual numbers can be anything.

Everyone knows how VAT works, but thanks for the explanations.

It doesn't change the fact that the VAT doesn't just drop off the value of a second hand car as you drive out the dealership.

A second hand cars value is decided upon by supply and demand and is zero to do with VAT. That is why some cars drop £10k in a year and some go up £10k.

The value of a second hand car is not the price you paid, minus VAT, then minus the depreciation.

And a pre reg cars value being lower is nothing to do with the VAT either. The dealer that pre registered it has paid the VAT. Do you think they've done that to be charitable and just give it away as a loss?

[Chas325]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Plus launch control was way better than the 440i. Less exciting at top end, and maybe a little fake, but great fun and luxurious at the same time, I'd have another.

How does launch control work? On the 8 speed ZF boxes there is no launch control as far as I know - only on the 7 speed DSG (which isn't on the BiTDI A6). Only asking becuase we have one and i never found launch control.....

[Alice Coupe]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

i hope it was second hand and he paid cash...

I'm sure a tantrum in the showroom will have this all resolved in a jiffy...

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Chasdrury

How does launch control work? On the 8 speed ZF boxes there is no launch control as far as I know - only on the 7 speed DSG (which isn't on the BiTDI A6). Only asking becuase we have one and i never found launch control.....

Pretty much the same as on the BMW's with the same ZF gearbox. A flag comes up when you get it right on the BMW. It doesn't show as clearly in the Bitdi, but the process is identical.

For the Bitdi engine, with the engine running you put it into neutral, turn off the traction control, put it back into D and then S.

Plant your left foot hard onto the brake pedal. Then floor the accelerator. You'll know it's working because the revs will be limited to around 3,000 and the wheels won't be scrabbling for grip. Then let go of the brake.

It really does fly away, my kids loved it, gives you a massive shove in the back. I always found an empty, straight, country road and did it. Wet or dry, warm or cold, with the quattro it makes very little difference, it goes off pretty quickly.

I tried launch in a Porsche 911 at the Porsche experience centre and the initial launch of the Bitdi felt faster, not after 30 mph though I'm sure.

I never bother in the 440i, it is set up crap. Limited at just over 2000 revs in a much higher revving car than the diesel, doesn't make sense, the initial power delivery when you lift your foot off the brake is rubbish, takes a few moments for the torque to ramp up, doesn't push you back at all and seems pointless.

[AyrshireColin]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Everyone knows how VAT works, but thanks for the explanations.

It doesn't change the fact that the VAT doesn't just drop off the value of a second hand car as you drive out the dealership.

A second hand cars value is decided upon by supply and demand and is zero to do with VAT. That is why some cars drop £10k in a year and some go up £10k.

The value of a second hand car is not the price you paid, minus VAT, then minus the depreciation.

And a pre reg cars value being lower is nothing to do with the VAT either. The dealer that pre registered it has paid the VAT. Do you think they've done that to be charitable and just give it away as a loss?

Going by the statements - your own included - clearly everyone doesn't know how VAT works!

VAT is paid on a new car and that is a fact. VAT is only paid against a used car for the proportion which is profit for the seller. Used cars as a rule are not subject to VAT. So you are 100% correct that VAT has nothing to do with the value of a used car - I might be missing something but I thought I also made that point.

The original point was that the price of the car is the price of the car and VAT is paid on top of this, that much isn't really open for debate of interpretation.

Regarding pre. reg. You've got me explaining to you how it works. Please feel free to counter.......

Are we really going to discuss dealers buying cars? Obviously no they are not charitable but they also don't pay the same for the cars as Joe Public.......they make plenty even after VAT!