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      09-05-2019, 02:20 AM   #67
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23psi with stock turbo WHERE? yes, at 3000rpm it is possible, if you wont crash hpfp, and it is possible without crashing with additional fueling. not possible at 6000+ rpm for sure, so who needs 23psi at 3000rpm?

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Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
Stock turbo should be good for over 500awhp so I dont think you are at the limit unless you have dynoed your car. Go check out Pure Turbos IG story from today and you will see they posted the dyno from Tom Wrigley's M240i which has BM3, catless dp, drop in filter, wagner heat exchange. They used a combination of E40/Meth to hit 505awhp and 700nm (not sure how much torque that is). Seen guys running as high as 23psi on the stock turbo (I believe one forum member even took it up to 25psi).

If we factor in the B58TU turbo, those can come close to putting down 525-550hp and same for tq (maybe even higher tq). I know the turbo is different, but not really sure what the difference is in terms of the compressor and turbine.

I'm coming close to pulling the trigger on the BMS meth kit or the Fuel-It! CPI kit so I can max out the stock turbo.
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      09-05-2019, 05:39 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
octane isn't as big of an issue as fueling for boost. you just need to keep afrs in control. you can run a lot of boost and less timing to make similar power.

boost limitation is based on fuel cap
timing limitation is based on octane

both have an efficiency range where going past the peak point will not make more power or could lose power.
I thought we agreed that better timing is more important than more boost

If power is the same why run higher boost and put stress on the components.

Also more boost will consume more fuel which will not combust properly as a result of the retarded timing which will lead to less efficiency.
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      09-05-2019, 06:47 AM   #69
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higher boost with lower ignition timing than with lower boost will generate bigger power. according to your logic - best thing would be run B58 natural aspirated with 32 degrees of ignition timing. Sadly, but you will get ~250hp only, not 430hp. Using more load, ignition timing will not stay the same, look at OEM ignition tables vs rpm vs load. Yes, timing is important, but without burning more fuel/air mixture you will not get power. Increasing boost is the main reason why you can increase 30-40% of power for turbo engines. Increasing timing with the same boost will end up ~5% gains with good fuel only.

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Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
I thought we agreed that better timing is more important than more boost

If power is the same why run higher boost and put stress on the components.

Also more boost will consume more fuel which will not combust properly as a result of the retarded timing which will lead to less efficiency.
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      09-05-2019, 07:04 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by YuminNuman View Post
What operating temp do you guys typically see? Mine has always been right at 230F .. which seems kinda high but it's about 40% up on the gauge so I figure that's where it wants to be. Oil / coolant temp both sit right around there. Still though I'm used to 210 being high on most other cars. I'd like to upgrade some of the cooling / make it kick on earlier.
same. on my vw it floats around 200. If it gets above 212 then everything cranks up. I've seen it get as high as 220 but then it drops down very quickly with all the pumps/fans running at max flow. But these cars (and from what i've seen, BMWs in general) run hot.

My current logs show cooler temps but in the peak of summer i was seeing above 220 too.

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Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
23psi with stock turbo WHERE? yes, at 3000rpm it is possible, if you wont crash hpfp, and it is possible without crashing with additional fueling. not possible at 6000+ rpm for sure, so who needs 23psi at 3000rpm?
I think this philosophy is a big part of it. Again, I'm used to stage 1 tunes running 20+ psi and I don't see why ours couldn't. But boost tends to drop off at the higher RPMs. Which it should with a smaller turbo. But to maintain the top end feel of the B58, they keep the boost flat. To get the most area under the curve, it makes sense to add boost in the mid range if there's enough fuel. It won't feel as satisfying, but it'll be faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
I thought we agreed that better timing is more important than more boost

If power is the same why run higher boost and put stress on the components.

Also more boost will consume more fuel which will not combust properly as a result of the retarded timing which will lead to less efficiency.
no i'm not saying that timing isn't important. i'm just saying that octane isn't as big of an influence on how much boost you can run. it's primarily fuel. It's up to the tuner how they want to bridge that balance but it makes the most sense to try several combinations of boost and timing across the range to see what's making the most power.
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      09-05-2019, 07:39 AM   #71
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No, best thing is to find the best balance between boost and timing.

Which is the highest boost before the engine knocks.

Go back to the basics of how an engine works, the air fuel mixture ignites near TDC pushing the piston and rotating the crankshaft.

Whatever amount of Fuel and Air you push into the cylinder are useless if ignition occurs way below TDC the piston will not have enough force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
higher boost with lower ignition timing than with lower boost will generate bigger power. according to your logic - best thing would be run B58 natural aspirated with 32 degrees of ignition timing. Sadly, but you will get ~250hp only, not 430hp. Using more load, ignition timing will not stay the same, look at OEM ignition tables vs rpm vs load. Yes, timing is important, but without burning more fuel/air mixture you will not get power. Increasing boost is the main reason why you can increase 30-40% of power for turbo engines. Increasing timing with the same boost will end up ~5% gains with good fuel only.
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      09-05-2019, 07:57 AM   #72
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more loaded cylinder will usually need less timing advance as more dense mixture will burn faster and too much advance using fast burning mixture = ignition before TDC. So, usually oem ignition tables are made minus ~1 degree of timing advance per +10% load. E85 can use much more advanced timing because ethanol is burning slow and you need to ignite it way before TDC to make efficient burn. Ignition and knock are not the only limitations, turbocharger flow is very important parameter also, bigger turbo with the same boost can make ~50hp more than same boost with smaller turbo.

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Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
No, best thing is to find the best balance between boost and timing.

Which is the highest boost before the engine knocks.

Go back to the basics of how an engine works, the air fuel mixture ignites near TDC pushing the piston and rotating the crankshaft.

Whatever amount of Fuel and Air you push into the cylinder are useless if ignition occurs way below TDC the piston will not have enough force.
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      09-05-2019, 08:23 AM   #73
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You are actually saying the same thing.

At high RPM the piston actually moves faster than the time it takes the air fuel mixture to fully combust, that's why you need to start the ignition earlier (Timing Advance)

If full combustion happens before TDC engine will knock, If much later you will lose power.

To cut a long story short whatever fuel you are using you want the air fuel mixture to fully combust at the same point the piston is just beginning to descend from TDC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
more loaded cylinder will usually need less timing advance as more dense mixture will burn faster and too much advance using fast burning mixture = ignition before TDC. So, usually oem ignition tables are made minus ~1 degree of timing advance per +10% load. E85 can use much more advanced timing because ethanol is burning slow and you need to ignite it way before TDC to make efficient burn. Ignition and knock are not the only limitations, turbocharger flow is very important parameter also, bigger turbo with the same boost can make ~50hp more than same boost with smaller turbo.

Last edited by IMS-340MP; 09-05-2019 at 09:01 AM..
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      09-05-2019, 03:56 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enemigo13 View Post
looking very powerful 187.5% load at 6000rpm with 15deg of timing, ~500hp?
No clue. If I had to guess maybe 450-470whp. But wont know until I get it on a dyno.
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      09-05-2019, 04:15 PM   #75
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No clue. If I had to guess maybe 450-470whp. But wont know until I get it on a dyno.
Do you know or can you guestimate what your octane is with E30+Meth?
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      09-05-2019, 04:37 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
Do you know or can you guestimate what your octane is with E30+Meth?
With the meth i'm unsure, but on E28 (lowered it a bit because fuel pressure was dropping) it's calculated at 96oct. I'm not sure how much octane the meth adds (running Snow Performance Boost Juice). I do plan on buying pure methanol and mixing it 70(meth)/30(water) to see if it helps at all with minor timing corrections.

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      09-05-2019, 04:52 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by SC_B5X View Post
With the meth i'm unsure, but on E28 (lowered it a bit because fuel pressure was dropping) it's calculated at 96oct. I'm not sure how much octane the meth adds (running Snow Performance Boost Juice). I do plan on buying pure methanol and mixing it 70(meth)/30(water) to see if it helps at all with minor timing corrections.

Is the HPFP behavior different on everyone's car? I have yet to see my HPFP dip below 2000psi and I'm running BM3 Stg 2 E30 OTS, xHP Stg 3 TCU Flash, ER catless dp, MPPSK exhaust, FTP intake + intake pipe, FTP chargepipe and NGK 94201 gapped to .022. My E30 blends are really more like E35-E36 as I rather be on the higher side than lower side.

Here is a log I took yesterday on my way home from work.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d703e2bc090c6192c62f3d9
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      09-05-2019, 04:55 PM   #78
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Lol nevermind, just went back and looked at some other logs and the lowest its gotten is 1500psi. Seems like I'm starting to get close to the edge.
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      09-05-2019, 05:36 PM   #79
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      09-05-2019, 07:47 PM   #80
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Your log looks really good. I'm running a high boost, low timing setup, peak boost 22PSI then pretty well 20 PSI flat to 6000 RPM, so I'm fuel limited to about E12 and I consistently see HPFP pressures drop to about 1300 PSI, but only between 3800 - 4500 RPM. This is because the HPFP is a lobe based design and at peak torque/Load the RPM limits the pump capacity. At the drag strip where the car is always >5000 RPM I've noticed HPFP stays 2500 PSI+

You should try ramping your Load/boost target up from 5000 RPM, you've got plenty of fuel pressure to play with there.

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Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
Lol nevermind, just went back and looked at some other logs and the lowest its gotten is 1500psi. Seems like I'm starting to get close to the edge.
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      09-06-2019, 01:33 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid67 View Post
Is the HPFP behavior different on everyone's car? I have yet to see my HPFP dip below 2000psi and I'm running BM3 Stg 2 E30 OTS, xHP Stg 3 TCU Flash, ER catless dp, MPPSK exhaust, FTP intake + intake pipe, FTP chargepipe and NGK 94201 gapped to .022. My E30 blends are really more like E35-E36 as I rather be on the higher side than lower side.

Here is a log I took yesterday on my way home from work.

http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5d703e2bc090c6192c62f3d9
I'm running more boost/timing than you are so that could be contributing to why I had to lower mine down to E28, but since I have meth lowering my E85 content didn't hurt too much. I'd love to get an upgraded HPFP, seems like i'm limited by fueling at the moment.
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      09-06-2019, 04:20 AM   #82
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You mean 98 RON ? Re you happy with MHD stage 1 tune, Any complaints ?

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Car: 340i, stock, MHD Stage 1, RON 97

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      09-06-2019, 06:24 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by IMS-340MP View Post
You mean 98 RON ? Re you happy with MHD stage 1 tune, Any complaints ?
Sorry, I mean that I use 97 RON gas, and the map is 95 RON. Very happy with the results, I was using JB4 + Bef but I decided to move to MHD ots maps. Any on comments regarding the logs? Thanks
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      09-06-2019, 06:52 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermesromeror View Post
Sorry, I mean that I use 97 RON gas, and the map is 95 RON. Very happy with the results, I was using JB4 + Bef but I decided to move to MHD ots maps. Any on comments regarding the logs? Thanks
Thanks for posting. The only feedback I have is that you have a lot of timing corrections in the midrange. certain cylinders are pulling 6 or more. Have you regapped your plugs?

I'm jealous that you guys have an actual timing correction metric in your logs. I wish BM3 had that.

Also, get more of your MHD buddies in here
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      09-06-2019, 10:12 AM   #85
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MP ECU and ECU tune
93 octane

185-186% load at 6000 rpm

50 lbs/min of air
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      09-06-2019, 02:45 PM   #86
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https://datazap.me/u/gt500r/2018-x3-...&data=5-6-9-12

MP ECU and ECU tune
93 octane

185-186% load at 6000 rpm

50 lbs/min of air
What stage? And can you log again with more parameters? I don't think I'm seeing the whole picture

Lambda is at 0.9 but I'm guessing that's actual. What's the target? I also don't see boost target, but I assume I can subtract 1000 from manifold pressure to get your boost pressure? And timing for cyl 1 only shows 2?

if you could add boost target, lambda target, and ignition timing for all cylinders it'll show the full picture.
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      09-06-2019, 04:04 PM   #87
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What stage? And can you log again with more parameters? I don't think I'm seeing the whole picture

Lambda is at 0.9 but I'm guessing that's actual. What's the target? I also don't see boost target, but I assume I can subtract 1000 from manifold pressure to get your boost pressure? And timing for cyl 1 only shows 2?

if you could add boost target, lambda target, and ignition timing for all cylinders it'll show the full picture.
Stage 2.5, lambda is actual.

New to logging so trying to figure it out. Only have ignition timing for 1 cylinder.
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      09-07-2019, 04:21 PM   #88
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Quote:
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Stage 2.5, lambda is actual.

New to logging so trying to figure it out. Only have ignition timing for 1 cylinder.
it's cool, i'd just try again to show all cylinders. you never know if cylinder 1 is pulling timing without either logging the timing correction or the other cylinders to compare.
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