[ATX78703]

good points... what do you think an M335i would cost?

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I think of the S4 like a Sport Line 335i, and both the 328i and the A4 are available with similar options. The rear diff is an option on the S4 too and the 335i now offers upgraded brakes over the 328i. So aside from not being able to get a 3.0T A4 (in the US) without the sport seats and available rear diff, they really are fairly interchangeable.

I actually think that Audi has a big opportunity with the B9 chassis to surpass BMW on the sportiness and handling front in this class. The F30 was a small step forward from the E90 and leaves a large opening for Audi to get this next round right. Of course they'll probably make it bigger than the current B8, which will totally remove it from my consideration.

I think the S4 is more like a 335is. More power and DCT. We will have to wait to see when BMW offers an F30 "is" model.

Audi's issue is there is no middle ground between the A4 and S4.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Audi's issue is there is no middle ground between the A4 and S4.

Does there need to be? I've driven both, the separation is actually fairly small aside from power. I guess because my inclination is towards a manual transmission and the sportiest trim possible, I really don't see much difference in an M Sport F30 335i and a B8 S4. For the flappy paddle set, I suppose the DCT in the S4 is a minor concession towards sportiness. Further, the 335is, if it materializes in F30 trim is likely to be more expensive than the S4.

I think the real issue presently is that in the US, Audi is priced better than BMW and with an older car, discounts are much easier to come by. I favor the 328i over the A4, but the 335i doesn't really carry the same advantage to the S4 for me.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Does there need to be? I've driven both, the separation is actually fairly small aside from power. I guess because my inclination is towards a manual transmission and the sportiest trim possible, I really don't see much difference in an M Sport F30 335i and a B8 S4. For the flappy paddle set, I suppose the DCT in the S4 is a minor concession towards sportiness. Further, the 335is, if it materializes in F30 trim is likely to be more expensive than the S4.

I think the real issue presently is that in the US, Audi is priced better than BMW and with an older car, discounts are much easier to come by. I favor the 328i over the A4, but the 335i doesn't really carry the same advantage to the S4 for me.

That's exactly the point. The A4 is not offered in any sort of sporting configuration while the 328 can be had with the Sport Line. And there is no option for a more powerful version until you step up to the very sporty S4. And the basic Premium A4 Quattro lacks bluetooth and driver info system, both which are std on a base 328i. Of course the Audi gives you other features as std like leather power seats. And I wouldn't call DCT a "minor" concession as this is std on most high end sports cars these days as the optimum transmission.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

That's exactly the point. The A4 is not offered in any sort of sporting configuration while the 328 can be had with the Sport Line. And there is no option for a more powerful version until you step up to the very sporty S4. And the basic Premium A4 Quattro lacks bluetooth and driver info system, both which are std on a base 328i. Of course the Audi gives you other features as std like leather power seats. And I wouldn't call DCT a "minor" concession as this is std on most high end sports cars these days as the optimum transmission.

I'm still confused on what you're trying to say. The A4 can have the exact same setup as the S4, less the sport diff. So an A4 S-Line is essentially an S4 with a different motor, very similar as a 328i compared to a 335i. Just because Audi uses a different letter doesn't make it a different car.

I don't really want to get into the automatic vs DCT setup, but with the ZF 8s having nearly identical shift times as DCT, what's the difference? Honestly, if it doesn't have three pedals, I really don't pay attention.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I'm still confused on what you're trying to say. The A4 can have the exact same setup as the S4, less the sport diff. So an A4 S-Line is essentially an S4 with a different motor, very similar as a 328i compared to a 335i. Just because Audi uses a different letter doesn't make it a different car.

I don't really want to get into the automatic vs DCT setup, but with the ZF 8s having nearly identical shift times as DCT, what's the difference? Honestly, if it doesn't have three pedals, I really don't pay attention.

Upon further investigation you are correct. The A4 starts to get expensive when you add S-line and Premium Plus package to compete with a Sport Line, Premium Package 328 but it still undercuts BMW's price. The problem is one is a new model and the other 3-4 years into it's life cycle.

The other question is price. A basic 335 with leather is under $45K where the S starts at over $48K. They are missing a basic model with the V6 engine. That's my point. You can't get a fast A4 for a non-enthusiast but you can in the 335.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Upon further investigation you are correct. The A4 starts to get expensive when you add S-line and Premium Plus package to compete with a Sport Line, Premium Package 328 but it still undercuts BMW's price. The problem is one is a new model and the other 3-4 years into it's life cycle.

The other question is price. A basic 335 with leather is under $45K where the S starts at over $48K. They are missing a basic model with the V6 engine. That's my point. You can't get a fast A4 for a non-enthusiast but you can in the 335.

Fairly true, but this opens up a thousand other inequities, like the US not getting a 335i wagon, or a manual X1, or a diesel just about anything.

I do think Audi is playing their cards well though, they were starting to get awfully close to the E90 in comparison tests, and while they gave up a little ground with the F30 arriving, I bet the B9 A4/S4 moves a step ahead of the F30 and has a few years of dominance over BMW until the next 3er arrives.

[Itgb]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Upon further investigation you are correct. The A4 starts to get expensive when you add S-line and Premium Plus package to compete with a Sport Line, Premium Package 328 but it still undercuts BMW's price. The problem is one is a new model and the other 3-4 years into it's life cycle.

The other question is price. A basic 335 with leather is under $45K where the S starts at over $48K. They are missing a basic model with the V6 engine. That's my point. You can't get a fast A4 for a non-enthusiast but you can in the 335.

If you look at the option/package structure of the A4/S4 you'll see that the S4 does not offer the "low end" Premium package on the S4. I guess their research has told them, that the majority of buyers of a premium fast car are going to at least step up to the Premium Plus level anyways.

On another note, the 2013 A4/S4 release has shown that the midlife refresh will include some nice improvents that will level the playing field with the 3-series(at least from a feature standpoint).

[///M1]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I think the S4 is more like a 335is. More power and DCT. We will have to wait to see when BMW offers an F30 "is" model.

Audi's issue is there is no middle ground between the A4 and S4.

I agree with the first statement, but not second. In fact, I believe the 'is' version was offered by BMW to be a closer match to the S4 (and still allow separation with the M3). IIRC the 'is' variant is not offered outside the US.

IMO, there is no need for an in-between variant (between the A4 and S4 that is). Recall that in the initial model year of the B8 A4 was offered 3.2 V6, the latter was dropped largely because of emissions/efficiency considerations (and the 2.Slow has more TQ).

If anything, I find the divide between the B8 S4 and B8 RS4 (offered only in Avant and not for the US) too slender. Audi should have popped in a version of the 4.0TT that is currently in the S6/S7/S8 (rather than the 4.2FSI NA engine), and a massaged variant of which is in the upcoming RS6/RS7 and Bentley Continental.

[ric124]

I think that the 335i and S4 are close competitors. I believe the S4 may come out on top on certain road courses and 335i on others. A good test would be the Stig on the top gear track.

Also I looked into both and I really love Audi being a VAG fan but what made me go for the 335 over the S4 was the 4 year service included.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by ric124

I think that the 335i and S4 are close competitors. I believe the S4 may come out on top on certain road courses and 335i on others.

Real world intervention: Both of these cars are competent luxury sedans. They are far from performance cars.

[ric124]

Originally Posted by Elk

Real world intervention: Both of these cars are competent luxury sedans. They are far from performance cars.

They are both sport sedans and if we are looking at them as luxury sedans then this whole thread is a waste. Are we not discussing the PERFORMANCE of both cars?

Luxury sedans? Dont we all here looked at both Audi and BMW for its sportiness? If not then I would suggest looking into Lexus or MB.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by ric124

They are both sport sedans and if we are looking at them as luxury sedans then this whole thread is a waste.

The comments have ranged far and wide. Whether or not the thread is a waste is up to the individual reader.

Regardless, talking about road course performance with these heavy, well-appointed, cushy sedans is ludicrous. Yes, you can take them to open track events - people do so regularly - but they are far from sports cars.

As an aside, BMW events are run by anal people, overly afraid of denting themselves or their cars. But Audi events are far worse. It is astounding they ever get on the track with all the paperwork, presentations, testing and excessive rules.

They are both great road cars, but not high performance machinery. I have spent to much time on road courses and instructing to take the average BMW/Audi driver and his car seriously as track capable.

Enjoy your car.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by ///M1

What the base model of the platform is has nothing to do with how good/bad the actual model (S4 in this case) is. Guess what, RS models by that logic are also based on the a base model, does that make them junk? Should we judge the 335i based on a say a diesel or petrol 316i because that is a 'base model' 3-series?

What makes IMO the S4 more 'sporty' is the tq vectoring/active diff option. Wish BMW offered there on non-M cars.

Any BMW is RWD. Almost any Audi starts up as an FWD. That base isn't a sporty way to start with in the first place...

The points I mentioned I don't see in your arguments. That active diff is only suitable for wet/snowy conditions. And YES I want the 335i to have an M diff but it has the 'E 'diff wich is more or less alright. The whole Audi diff thing is nonsense imo. It doesn't take corners like a rwd or lets say a Nissan GTR. The only really sporty Audi is called R8 in my book.
And I know a thing or two about 'sporty' Audis.

Originally Posted by micknugget

I say the S4 is more sportscar oriented because besides the bigger engine than the A4, it has a sports suspension, upgraded rear differential, upgraded dual clutch automatic, summer only tires, aggressive sports seating, upgraded brakes, etc. It is clearly not a typical Audi designed for all weather conditions. It is designed to be a sports car version of the A4 giving up luxury for performance. The 335 can be altered thru options but it isn't the same IMO.

The 335i has better brakes than the 328i. Mine has sports seats , sports suspension and the electronic diff. I can drift with the thing. I had a E90 M3 a few years ago.
The 335i is the sportier car because the rwd basis and almost 50/50 weight bias plus weighing less is a better thing to start with. I don't see the point inthe S4 being sportier than the 335i. Alright, the S4 is sportier than a normal A4. The diff is a marketing gimmick which doesn't work properly. It's a tad better than the previous diff but it's still a nose heavy Audi.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

That active diff is only suitable for wet/snowy conditions.

The Audi differential works anytime there is a rotational difference between the wheels; that is, in any sharp corner. It is more active, of course, when there is tire slip such as wet, snow, sand or high power transfer on asphalt.

Conceptually it is better than braking the inner wheel as employed by cars with an electronic differential, but electronic differentials work surprisingly well in practice.

The Audi's quatro system is more performance oriented than BMW's x-drive which is designed for snow. The S4 weighs close to two tons however so it cannot reasonably be described as nimble.

[nal13]

What bothers me is that BMW is starting to slack. Audi hit it out of the park with the S4 and that's why I bought one. The car came out in 2009 and for the price and performance, nothing could touch it!!!! BMW has always been the bench mark, and I figured I'd drive my S4 for two or three years and then ptobably "upgrade" to new F30 335i when the x-drive version came out. If audi could transform the S4 to such an incredible machine, only God knew what BMW could do in three years. I was expecting the new 335i to be a complete game changer.
Thats why I find it perplexing that BMW produced a car that is inferior to its major competition in almost all categories, three years after that competition was released. Many reviewers actually prefer the 328 over the 335!!!! It seems like BMW focused more on the model for the masses then the enthusiasts model (328 instead of the 335). I hope this is not a glimps of things to come from BMW.

[Robin_NL]

The inferior 335i is the winner though.
And it costs almost 10,000 euros less than the S4. That's 13,000 US$.

Very inferior indeed.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by nal13

What bothers me is that BMW is starting to slack. Audi hit it out of the park with the S4 and that's why I bought one. The car came out in 2009 and for the price and performance, nothing could touch it!!!! BMW has always been the bench mark, and I figured I'd drive my S4 for two or three years and then ptobably "upgrade" to new F30 335i when the x-drive version came out. If audi could transform the S4 to such an incredible machine, only God knew what BMW could do in three years. I was expecting the new 335i to be a complete game changer.
Thats why I find it perplexing that BMW produced a car that is inferior to its major competition in almost all categories, three years after that competition was released. Many reviewers actually prefer the 328 over the 335!!!! It seems like BMW focused more on the model for the masses then the enthusiasts model (328 instead of the 335). I hope this is not a glimps of things to come from BMW.

There is certainly some turth to what you said. BMW have become the Toyota of the sport sedan segment, they try to design cars that please everybody but lost something in the translation.
Audi is certainly at its peak right now, at the same time, they might be slowly starting their downard decent. I have owned 4 Audi so far, and the built quality is simply better in the older Audi. I believe every car company goes thru its up and down cycle. I would not be a bit surprise if BMW make a big come back in the next 5 years. I like the current BMW line up design wise, even though its a bit water down performance wise.

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by The X Men

There is certainly some turth to what you said. BMW have become the Toyota of the sport sedan segment, they try to design cars that please everybody but lost something in the translation.
Audi is certainly at its peak right now, at the same time, they might be slowly starting their downard decent. I have owned 4 Audi so far, and the built quality is simply better in the older Audi. I believe every car company goes thru its up and down cycle. I would not be a bit surprise if BMW make a big come back in the next 5 years. I like the current BMW line up design wise, even though its a bit water down performance wise.

I would say that Audi is more guilty than BMW of designing cars that appeal to the masses. The VW Jetta is a very conservative design and the A4 really looks like a fancied up Jetta. My main issue with the A4 was that I didn't really care for the looks. They were too neutral.

[///M1]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Any BMW is RWD. Almost any Audi starts up as an FWD. That base isn't a sporty way to start with in the first place...

The points I mentioned I don't see in your arguments. That active diff is only suitable for wet/snowy conditions. And YES I want the 335i to have an M diff but it has the 'E 'diff wich is more or less alright. The whole Audi diff thing is nonsense imo. It doesn't take corners like a rwd or lets say a Nissan GTR. The only really sporty Audi is called R8 in my book. And I know a thing or two about 'sporty' Audis.

First of all, you have to define what 'sporty' means as you are using it in different settings/context. You find the 335i sporty, yet the only sporty Audi you find is the R8??? Seriously now

And the whole point of how a base model starts is irrelevant for what the ultimate offering of its top of the line model is. Just so you know, cars like the RS4 only have one body panel in common with the A4 - the roof. As far as the engine, in the case of the B7, it was the water pump. Everything else was bespoke and custom developed for a car, so it is irrelevant what the A4 base model started with. Take the Nissan Juke which starts as a FWD car, does that make the Juke-R (with the GT-R engine transplant) is not a 'sporty' car simply because it shares the base sheet metal body with a 'base' car. It will slaughter just about any car on a track.

I am sorry, but based on what you are saying, it clear shows you do NOT know a thing or two about Audis, nor about LSDs/Active Diffs/E-Diffs.

1. The active diff suitable only for wet/snowy conditions - nonsense. Take an S4 with it and without it on a track for example, and you will see the night and day difference.
2. BMW E-Diff is OK - you can't be serious. Yes, it is ok for going to the supermarket. If you want to take a car on a spirited drive, canyon run, autocross, and especially track, it is the most limiting factor in getting the power to the ground and the full potential of the car. The E-diff was the most crippling factor on my 135i, especially after I increased the power and upgraded the suspension. The LSD on my 1///M was likely the most transforming component and made the car magical.
3. Only real 'sporty' Audi is the R8 - again, please define what you mean by sporty. Considering you classify the 335i as sporty and the S4 not, what does that make for RS offerings, which all have bespoke engines, components from VAG super cars like Lamborghini (e.g. brake systems)? First off, the Audi R8 is in the GT category, here we are talking about everyday sedans and coupes, not 'super cars'. Have you driven any RS car? RS5 is certainly sporty, the RS4 has always been, and there is no better people/cargo hauler than the RS6 Avant, including over bloated SUVs like the Cayenne Turbo and X6 ///M. And for a fact, as I have mentioned, cars like the RS4/RS5/RS6 share only the roof panels with their respective base model platform, all else is pretty much bespoke (engine, suspension, braking system, etc.)

Not gonna argue any further, but before you start making statements for what you know 'a thing or two' about, pls get your facts straight.

[Robin_NL]

^
Having had a few 'S Quattros myself, driven some very very fast Audis(RS4/RS6 etc etc) I do know what I am talking about. Don't underestimate my experience with fast Audis, just don't. Get that?!!!!
Those RS versions are ever bigger boats than the M3's and M5s Ive driven....

There is no nonsense in my point. Read the articles and see videos of Audis 'active diff'. For the last time. An S4 is based on a A4. That's a FWD layout. From a point to start with it's already behind. Is that too difficult to understand?

If you want a real good AWD experience. GEt a NIssan GTR or let's say a WRC or GR B car.

Some say the S4 is sportier than the 335i. I say it's the other way saround. I live in a free country. You too. I come with arguments. Higher weight of the Audi. Frontheavy Audi, FWD basis. And you say a 335i isn't sporty and the E diff sucks? Yes I want a M diff. I had two M3s before this one. Tell me something about it...Pffff. But the E diff is still alright compared to the much acclaimed (and not worth it) active Audi diff.

I'm out of here.. Don't want to 'discuss' in this way.
Thanx anyway for letting me see with who I'm 'discussing' and what they think they know.....
Do some trackdays, do some drifting and THEN we'll discuss this further



Cheers
Robin

EDIT:
My friend Advevo you do know don't you.
A few years ago we did a Quattro -day at Lelystad near Amsterdam. Some Autocross etc.
One of the hosts was this guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gijs_van_Lennep
Yes , exactly, a Le Mans winner...

He drove my Audi S3 and told me it's still understeered.Doh. I know that! He drove a S6 rather fast around a small track and Advevo and me were the passengers. Only understeer and other not funny things. But OK he is/was a pro driver. What does he know?

Another Cheers from this side of the pond and keep your car between the lines.

Robin

[jeremicium]

I score the above debate for....///M1.

Robin_NL says, "Don't underestimate my experience with fast Audis, just don't. Get that?!!!!" What is this? Sounds like typical forum post tough guy syndrome.

The e-diff is a joke. I love my 335, but it's a one wheel drive car. I hate that, I can feel it on the track and on the street.

The fact that the 335 is a direct competitor for the S4, and the S4 has the ability to drive all four wheels, and particularly to put varying amounts of power to the rear wheels in a corner puts the 335 at a disadvantage. In my limited experience I felt the S4 with active diff provided a better handling experience than the F30 335. Not more fun, but without a doubt I was able to take corners faster in the Audi.

Look at track times for these two cars. S4 wins here. Despite the weight disadvantage, and despite the S4 being based on a fwd platform, something is making the audi faster. I'd venture to say that its a slightly more powerful engine AND the torque vectoring diff.

Would I take the S4 over the F30 335? Not sure. If I could get the S4 at close to the same price as the 335 I would be very tempted, despite being partial towards BMWs.