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      10-30-2018, 08:21 PM   #23
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This is fantastic. Thank you for the history lessons
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      10-30-2018, 10:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Thanks for pointing out that detail.

It must've been my wording in the original post. It wasn't the intention.
In any case, I've fixed the OP to correct the misunderstanding.

ALPINA was indeed tasked with spearheading the development of the 3.0 CSL, since they were the contemporary BMW experts in touring car racing.
To BMW's credit, the racing department (and the people) within BMW that facilitated this cooperation & development would be later formally incorporated as BMW Motorsport GmbH in 1972 as more key people joined the division.
So while the 3.0 CSL does predate the formal establishment of BMW Motorsport GmbH, that doesn't mean the department/division itself didn't exist in the CSL's development.
It's still widely considered that the 3.0 CSL is BMW M's "first" creation. Not the first BMW to bear the M Badge, but the car that marked the birth of BMW M.
The CSL concept was not BMW's idea. BMW left racing in 1969, but it supported Alpina's racing. Alpina knew that the 2800 CS was too heavy, so it sent BMW a letter with the plan to increase the engine to a 3.0 and cut weight. BMW tasked Alpina with doing it because it couldn't.

The CSL name was chosen after it was built and needed to be marketed for homologation. So one thing has always been true, M is for marketing.
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      10-31-2018, 06:53 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Horns! View Post
The CSL concept was not BMW's idea. BMW left racing in 1969, but it supported Alpina's racing. Alpina knew that the 2800 CS was too heavy, so it sent BMW a letter with the plan to increase the engine to a 3.0 and cut weight. BMW tasked Alpina with doing it because it couldn't.

The CSL name was chosen after it was built and needed to be marketed for homologation. So one thing has always been true, M is for marketing.
At this point, you're really just splitting hairs here.

The fact that the CSL program was brought in-house to BMW and subsequently led to the establishment of BMW Motorsport GmbH is the main event here.

Ultimately, it was BMW that made the decision to incorporate & make the CSL a BMW factory program (meaning all the rights therein belong to BMW), not ALPINA, even if they were the ones who made the project technically possible.

Let's put it another way.
Take the sentence: "The M-DCT in the E9x M3 is BMW M's first dual-clutch transmission."
You could say that since Getrag are the ones who actually did the R&D for the M-DCT, that they (Getrag) would deserve credit and you'd be correct.
But on the other hand, since the M-DCT was sold as BMW factory equipment, meaning all the licensing (incl. trademark of the name and other rights) belongs to BMW, then it wouldn't be incorrect to say "BMW M first introduced the M-DCT in the E9x M3".
These are not mutually exclusive concepts.
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      10-31-2018, 12:13 PM   #26
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Thanks for the historical flash back

As a tidbit, since you are listing the UK only E46 M3cs, you should also include the Spain only F82 M4cs that was released in 2016.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1246581
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      10-31-2018, 12:40 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Thanks for the historical flash back

As a tidbit, since you are listing the UK only E46 M3cs, you should also include the Spain only F82 M4cs that was released in 2016.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1246581
Interestingly, that special "CS" edition for Spain was actually officially called "Competition Sport Edition" (completely spelled out) and not "M4 CS", although the etymologies are probably one in the same.

https://www.bmw.es/es/topics/mundo-b...mitada-m4.html

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/spain...da?language=es
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      10-31-2018, 04:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Interestingly, that special "CS" edition for Spain was actually officially called "Competition Sport Edition" (completely spelled out) and not "M4 CS", although the etymologies are probably one in the same.

https://www.bmw.es/es/topics/mundo-b...mitada-m4.html

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/spain...da?language=es
Interresting. So it is only the press that called it a CS.

However, I don't believe either the Spain nor the UK iteration belong in the "CS/CLS" history as they were not "true" model deisgnations from BMW corporate.
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      10-31-2018, 04:29 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Interestingly, that special "CS" edition for Spain was actually officially called "Competition Sport Edition" (completely spelled out) and not "M4 CS", although the etymologies are probably one in the same.

https://www.bmw.es/es/topics/mundo-b...mitada-m4.html

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/spain...da?language=es
Interresting. So it is only the press that called it a CS.

However, I don't believe either the Spain nor the UK iteration belong in the "CS/CLS" history as they were not "true" model deisgnations from BMW corporate.
Understand that I included the UK iteration of the E46 M3 ZCP (E46 M3 CS) because it is the source (albeit quasi-official) of the hierarchy going forward, where "CS" is one step below "CSL".
Yes, it was identical to the Competition Package in every way, but this was the beginning of the modern precedent for "CS" as sort of a "lesser" CSL/GTS.

I wrote this to help establish a logical connection to the origins of the nomenclature and how the hierarchies evolved and became established in the model range.
Context, my friend.
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      10-31-2018, 04:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Understand that I included the UK iteration of the E46 M3 ZCP (E46 M3 CS) because it is the source (albeit quasi-official) of the hierarchy going forward, where "CS" is one step below "CSL".
Yes, it was identical to the Competition Package in every way, but this was the beginning of the modern precedent for "CS" as sort of a "lesser" CSL/GTS.

I wrote this to help establish a logical connection to the origins of the nomenclature and how the hierarchies evolved and became established in the model range.
Context, my friend.
Is it really?

It was only known as a "CS" by BMW UK marketing. IIRC, there was no CS labelling anywhere on the car.
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      10-31-2018, 04:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Understand that I included the UK iteration of the E46 M3 ZCP (E46 M3 CS) because it is the source (albeit quasi-official) of the hierarchy going forward, where "CS" is one step below "CSL".
Yes, it was identical to the Competition Package in every way, but this was the beginning of the modern precedent for "CS" as sort of a "lesser" CSL/GTS.

I wrote this to help establish a logical connection to the origins of the nomenclature and how the hierarchies evolved and became established in the model range.
Context, my friend.
Is it really?

It was only known as a "CS" by BMW UK marketing. IIRC, there was no CS labelling anywhere on the car.
"Quasi-official" and "sans" the badge, all noted in the OP.

Let's not take the context away.


Here's the Official BMW Press Release for the UK market for the BMW M3 CS Coupé from 2005.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW
April 25, 2005

The new BMW M3 CS Coupé

BMW is set to enrich its M car line-up with the launch of the M3 CS. Based on the multi-award winning M3 Coupé, the M3 CS, available to order now in the UK, adds key performance ingredients from 2003's exclusive M3 CSL. The result? An even more focused M3. And, at £43,555 on-the-road (a price premium of just £2,400 more than a BMW M3 Coupé), the CS will appeal to those M3 customers looking for that extra sparkle without compromising the exclusivity of M3 CSL ownership.

The M3 CS Coupé features performance-oriented CSL specification. It adds that car's 18-inch disc brakes, a more direct steering rack (14.5 ratio rather than the 15.4 of the M3) and M Track Mode, the steering wheel activated system that increases DSC thresholds.

Styling additions will also set the car apart from a 'standard' M3. These
include, 'M3 CSL Design' 19-inch light alloy wheels, steering wheel, hand brake lever and (optional) SMG gearstick clothed in Alcantara, exclusive 'Alu Tec' interior trim, and exclusive 'Interlagos Blue' paintwork (all M3 exterior colours are available).

All other technical and equipment specifications are as per the 'standard' M3 and the M3 CS is not being introduced as a limited edition. Whilst the M3 CS adds new desirability to an 'old' favourite, the new boys on the block, the M5 and M6, continue to make the news.
Badge or no badge, the UK market E46 M3 CS is what set the precedent for the "CS" to be essentially a CSL-lite (or GTS-lite).
That is the reason for its inclusion in the article, nothing more, nothing less.
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      10-31-2018, 07:29 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
"Quasi-official" and "sans" the badge, all noted in the OP.

Let's not take the context away.


Here's the Official BMW Press Release for the UK market for the BMW M3 CS Coupé from 2005.



Badge or no badge, the UK market E46 M3 CS is what set the precedent for the "CS" to be essentially a CSL-lite (or GTS-lite).
That is the reason for its inclusion in the article, nothing more, nothing less.
BMW UK press release that is. Elsewhere in the world, this trim for the M3 was called the competition package, the first iteration of the competition pack for that matter. The "new" CS line up is intended to be slotted between the Competition model and the CSL/GTS. So I have to disagree with you, the UK CS is not the precursor of the current CS, but rather a re-labelled Competition pack. BMW AG does not even recognise its existence since it introduced the F80 M3cs as the "first ever" in their worldwide press releases.

I am just nitpicking here, the OP remains one great article
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      11-01-2018, 03:13 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
BMW UK press release that is. Elsewhere in the world, this trim for the M3 was called the competition package, the first iteration of the competition pack for that matter. The "new" CS line up is intended to be slotted between the Competition model and the CSL/GTS. So I have to disagree with you, the UK CS is not the precursor of the current CS, but rather a re-labelled Competition pack.

I am just nitpicking here, the OP remains one great article
Thanks for the kind words.
Unfortunately, you still misunderstand and you're definitely nitpicking .

If you go back and reread the quote, I introduced the press kit as BMW's press release for the UK market (what other press release would it be, since the E46 M3 CS was marketed as such in the UK only). Nowhere am I dodging this and I will reiterate that the wording of the OP acknowledges that the E46 CS only existed on a quasi-official level.

But again, what is the title and intent/context of the article?
To trace the origins and precedents for the nomenclature and positioning of the CS & CSL models.

I recognize your reasons for not wanting to equate the E46 M3 CS (due to lack of universal consistency across BMW AG) and the F80 M3 CS. Your logic is sound here.

But if you take the context into consideration, the article serves to provide a logical basis (i.e., a precedent) to which the idea of the "M3 CS", was conceived conceptually, the "seed", if you will.
The E46 M3 CS was a ZCP equipped M3 but for the UK market.
Taken alone, and out of the context of this thread, the two have no relation.
But the E46 M3 CS was also reinterpreted (by BMW marketing in the UK and UK media/press) as a "CSL-lite", (where even with subsequent E9x & F8x M3/M4 competition pkg/competition models, one would be hard-pressed to call them "GTS-lite" models). It would really take the M4 CS and M3 CS of the F8x generation to provide that "GTS-lite".

Similarly the E46 M3 CSL was not a homologation road-going race-car like the 3.0 CSL, but they still shared a suffix.
Because even though the E46 CSL was not a homologation race-car, it was still a "Coupe Sport Leicht" in the sense that it was a lightweight, more focused version of the standard car.

Precedent and predecessor are entirely different things.
The case I'm making for the "CS" and "CSL" in this thread is one of precedent.
In other words, I'm talking strictly about the moniker and the inspiration for such.
My article attempts to establish a historical connection and precedent for the name, not genealogy per se.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
BMW AG does not even recognise its existence since it introduced the F80 M3cs as the "first ever" in their worldwide press releases.
About that, this is why I keep using the word "quasi-official".
The E46 M3 CS was "official" in the sense that it was, indeed, sold and marketed by BMW as an M3 CS in the UK.
But it was "unofficial" in the sense that on a macro-level, it was a BMW M3 with the ZCP package equipped.

But that doesn't discount the name one bit.
Let me propose a hypothetical:
Take the US Market.
We had, for the E9x generation, a special edition M3 called the Lime Rock Park Edition, which, in macro-BMW AG level terms is technically just an M3 Coupe with Fire Orange paint, ZCP, cloth seats, and some M Performance goodies.
Let's suppose that down the road, for whatever reason, BMW wants to use the LRP name globally for a future special/limited edition M2, for example.
If you were to detail the origins of the Lime Rock Park nameplate, you would naturally give an honorable mention to the E92 M3 LRP on the basis that the nameplate was first used (in the US market/quasi-officially) on the E92 M3 to denote special status. Even if the E92 M3 LRP was only marketed for the US, the precedent for the LRP as a name for a special/limited edition car was already established.

Now, back to the press kit.
You'll notice the F80 M3 CS Press Kit is different for both US and UK releases.
Both are dated August 11, 2017, but the choice of wording presents entirely different implications.
The title of the US press release is "The First-Ever BMW M3 CS."
The title of the UK press release is "The new BMW M3 CS."

The wording of the UK press kit title for the F80 M3 CS is intentionally ambiguous in the use of the word "new" instead of the unambiguous "first-ever".
This is because "new" can take on two definitions in this case:
a) Produced, introduced, or discovered recently or now for the first time; not existing before.
b) Beginning anew and in a transformed way; superseding and more advanced than another or others of the same kind.

This choice of wording purposely allows flexibility in the interpretation, which makes sense for the UK market, since there already existed an M3 CS, or maybe not. Depends on your interpretation. See where I'm going here?
Sometimes it's advantageous to be intentionally ambiguous.


We can agree to disagree, but the logic behind the E46 M3 CS's honorable mention is sound and justified given that this is a thread detailing the precedent to the nomenclature (i.e., origins) of CS and CSL models.
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