[Abdul Karim]

Originally Posted by ciscopete822

Attachment 1921999

Lol.

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by Count Bernd Von Ottovorde

Not keen on people knowing the CBI get funding from the eu?

Couldn't give a monkeys, it's all there out in the open and transparent well researched information.

Unlike the places you seem to get all your information that appears to be funded by some dubious sources. Arron Banks with a 'Diamond' mine he says funded his multi million pound donations to the brexit cause has a mortgage on his house that is worth less than a million pounds. Who's funding the Tax Payers Alliance?

[Abdul Karim]

Originally Posted by Dyl

Couldn't give a monkeys, it's all there out in the open and transparent well researched information.

Unlike the places you seem to get all your information that appears to be funded by some dubious sources. Arron Banks with a 'Diamond' mine he says funded his multi million pound donations to the brexit cause has a mortgage on his house that is worth less than a million pounds. Who's funding the Tax Payers Alliance?

Citation needed

[teaston]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Indeed, which is why I said quite clearly that negotiations were never going to be easy. My only point was that you make it massively more difficult if you appear divided and disunited to the other side (which is exactly what we've done); leaves them thinking there's a chance we'll just do a U-turn and capitulate which then drives a different negotiating stance and behaviour from if they know for certain we're going.

Absolutely I agree, but it was only ever going to be like that. But if the remain vote had won we'd never have heard about Brexit again and we'd all just be getting on with our lives.

[Abdul Karim]

Originally Posted by teaston

Absolutely I agree, but it was only ever going to be like that. But if the remain vote had won we'd never have heard about Brexit again and we'd all just be getting on with our lives.

Inconvenient thing democracy

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by teaston

Absolutely I agree, but it was only ever going to be like that. But if the remain vote had won we'd never have heard about Brexit again and we'd all just be getting on with our lives.

I rather suspect that if Remain had won by 52-48 people like Nigel Farage wouldn't have just gone quietly and let it drop! However, as someone who voted Leave I certainly would; admittedly in my case the decision on which way to vote was finely balanced but my view all along was it was a once in a generation referendum and whatever the result you respect it and move on.

Continuing to go through it all again until the side that lost in 2016 eventually gets the result it wanted wasn't part of the agenda as far as I was concerned....

[Sasquartch]

The whole thing has turned into something nobody really predicted on either side

I voted leave and fully realised there would be some economic impact. However I'll admit I had no idea about the UK/Eire border problem which seems to be insurmountable

I don't consider myself terminally stupid for voting to leave, my reasons weren't just economic which everyone seems to focus on.

I was happy with the EEC as a trading bloc but since Maarstrict I have not agreed with the concept of 'ever closer union'. I do not want to be governed by an increasingly undemocratic, corrupt, largely unaccountable, German dominated union. It seems the 27 other nations have equal voting powers when it suits them despite some of the countries having total populations less than London.

I have been accused of being a racist just because I voted leave. I care not at all about race, just a rapidly increasing population which means more and more strain on our infrastructure and a housing market where prices are ever increasing to the point where my three children might never be able to afford a property of their own.

Maybe I'm insular, xenophobic, whatever but I want the UK to retain it's own customs, language, currency, way of life etc whilst still being friends with our European neighbours.

If there was another vote I'd actually switch to remain only because a satisfactory solution is probably impossible to achieve

[Jimbob335DX]

I just cant believe how much the EU refuses to evolve and adapt, with change being the no1 stumbling block.

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I rather suspect that if Remain had won by 52-48 people like Nigel Farage wouldn't have just gone quietly and let it drop!

An actual Farage quote one month before the referendum...

‘In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way.’

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Dyl

An actual Farage quote one month before the referendum...

He actually repeated essentially the same thing as polls closed on the referendum day. He thought they had lost by a narrow margin and said that 52/48 would not settle the matter, but one third / two thirds would.

It seems more than a little hypocritical for Leavers to bang on about the lack of democracy in having another referendum.

Of course part of me want to see another referendum and a Remain win to see just how much it annoys Count Bernd Von Ottovorde & co...

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Sasquartch

The whole thing has turned into something nobody really predicted on either side

I voted leave and fully realised there would be some economic impact. However I'll admit I had no idea about the UK/Eire border problem which seems to be insurmountable

I don't consider myself terminally stupid for voting to leave, my reasons weren't just economic which everyone seems to focus on.

I was happy with the EEC as a trading bloc but since Maarstrict I have not agreed with the concept of 'ever closer union'. I do not want to be governed by an increasingly undemocratic, corrupt, largely unaccountable, German dominated union. It seems the 27 other nations have equal voting powers when it suits them despite some of the countries having total populations less than London.

I have been accused of being a racist just because I voted leave. I care not at all about race, just a rapidly increasing population which means more and more strain on our infrastructure and a housing market where prices are ever increasing to the point where my three children might never be able to afford a property of their own.

Maybe I'm insular, xenophobic, whatever but I want the UK to retain it's own customs, language, currency, way of life etc whilst still being friends with our European neighbours.

If there was another vote I'd actually switch to remain only because a satisfactory solution is probably impossible to achieve

I agree with some of that and looking back perhaps the time for a referendum was before we signed-up to Maastricht as that was when we really started to move away from the notion of a Common Market or European Economic Community and more towards a federal Europe.

However, while I understand the sentiment, I do find your last sentence a little depressing as the inference is we're trapped in something a majority of us dislike but with apparently no satisfactory or sensible way out of it. I genuinely hope that's not the case but if it is it almost feels like we'll have (in effect) compromised our right to self determination without realising it or having had a proper opportunity to vote on it before it happened.....

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by JD6

It seems more than a little hypocritical for Leavers to bang on about the lack of democracy in having another referendum.

But I ask again how long do you want to keep going down that line and having more and more referendums? Is it best of 3, best of 5, or do we just call a halt once we've got a vote to Remain?

Yes people like Nigel Farage may have been saying a 52-48 vote to Remain wasn't the end of it but I suspect in that scenario a majority of the 48 wouldn't have supported any call for a further referendum; the vast majority of us were clear it was a straight in or out vote and we wouldn't be getting another go at it for many years regardless of the outcome.

In actual fact, prior to the referendum I suspect that's what many prominent Remainers were saying as well - John Major being one obvious example - but of course at that stage they fully expected to win....

[Sasquartch]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I agree with some of that and looking back perhaps the time for a referendum was before we signed-up to Maastricht as that was when we really started to move away from the notion of a Common Market or European Economic Community and more towards a federal Europe.

However, while I understand the sentiment, I do find your last sentence a little depressing as the inference is we're trapped in something a majority of us dislike but with apparently no satisfactory or sensible way out of it. I genuinely hope that's not the case but if it is it almost feels like we'll have (in effect) compromised our right to self determination without realising it or having had a proper opportunity to vote on it before it happened.....

I agree that it is a little depressing but I say this only because I'm pragmatic and realise the whole issue is so complex that we may be better off with things as they are.
I'd rather either stay as we are (with all the knowns) or leave completely - the idea of BRINO will probably be the worst of all worlds

[Bibbles]

Originally Posted by JNW1

But I ask again how long do you want to keep going down that line and having more and more referendums? Is it best of 3, best of 5, or do we just call a halt once we've got a vote to Remain?

Yes people like Nigel Farage may have been saying a 52-48 vote to Remain wasn't the end of it but I suspect in that scenario a majority of the 48 wouldn't have supported any call for a further referendum; the vast majority of us were clear it was a straight in or out vote and we wouldn't be getting another go at it for many years regardless of the outcome.

In actual fact, prior to the referendum I suspect that's what many prominent Remainers were saying as well - John Major being one obvious example - but of course at that stage they fully expected to win....

As many as it takes when new facts, information and understanding is being offered to the public before voting. You need a well informed electorate to have a democracy.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Bibbles

As many as it takes when new facts, information and understanding is being offered to the public before voting. You need a well informed electorate to have a democracy.

Which is clearly a ridiculous way to proceed; a better argument for not governing via referendums would be hard to find!

[JD6]

Originally Posted by JNW1

But I ask again how long do you want to keep going down that line and having more and more referendums? Is it best of 3, best of 5, or do we just call a halt once we've got a vote to Remain?

Yes people like Nigel Farage may have been saying a 52-48 vote to Remain wasn't the end of it but I suspect in that scenario a majority of the 48 wouldn't have supported any call for a further referendum; the vast majority of us were clear it was a straight in or out vote and we wouldn't be getting another go at it for many years regardless of the outcome.

In actual fact, prior to the referendum I suspect that's what many prominent Remainers were saying as well - John Major being one obvious example - but of course at that stage they fully expected to win....

I disagree. I think that had Remain scraped through by a narrow margin like 52/48, as Farage suggested, the vast majority of Leavers would not have given up hope of leaving. They might have chosen to wait a few years to regroup, but they would be back. Of course Remainers can't wait a few years given the time constraints from Article 50, hence the pressure now.

Take Scottish independence as an example - that was lost by a much greater margin, so they have a much tougher job to turn it around, but the 45% haven't gone away. They only reason that they aren't calling for another referendum tomorrow, is that they know they would lose again, whereas Remain have a pretty good chance in my opinion now we have seen what an omnishambles Brexit looks like.

I take your point about when do we stop though.

[Bibbles]

Originally Posted by JNW1

Which is clearly a ridiculous way to proceed; a better argument for not governing via referendums would be hard to find!

Exactly, so lets ignore the previous one as it's ridiculous to ask people a binary question on a complex and far reaching topic that no one fully understands. Or we can just go around quoting brexit means brexit, will of the people and waffle on about getting sovereignty back and see where that leads us.

[Abdul Karim]

Originally Posted by Bibbles

Exactly, so lets ignore the previous one as it's ridiculous to ask people a binary question on a complex and far reaching topic that no one fully understands. Or we can just go around quoting brexit means brexit, will of the people and waffle on about getting sovereignty back and see where that leads us.

How are your preparations going for leaving the eu?

[Bibbles]

Originally Posted by Count Bernd Von Ottovorde

How are your preparations going for leaving the eu?

My prep is going fine thanks. I'll be staying in the EU.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by JD6

Take Scottish independence as an example - that was lost by a much greater margin, so they have a much tougher job to turn it around, but the 45% haven't gone away. They only reason that they aren't calling for another referendum tomorrow, is that they know they would lose again, whereas Remain have a pretty good chance in my opinion now we have seen what an omnishambles Brexit looks like.

The Scottish Nationalists are consistently agitating for another referendum, and marching up and down like extras from Braveheart drowning in flags dreaming of an independent future built on hope, while mobbing anyone who asks for real facts - including trashing/attacking the last Growth Commision report published by the SNP themselves (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland...itics-44237956) to "encourage debate", which wasn't mentioned once at the SNP's last conference.

The smarter in the SNP know they would lose any referendum now, so they have to keep their faithful troops all fired up, aggrieved and marching about without actually admitting that.

The contradictions by the SNP about Brexit have been wonderful to observe.

"Out of the EU - very bad
Out of the EU and out of the UK - very good" .

They hoped to capitalise on the Brexit vote (where most in Scotland voted remain) but the bounce for them did not happen.

SNP also backing a people's vote on Brexit. Wonder how that would play out if Scotland ever votes for independence ..... woud they support a people's vote then?

Wonderful to see them tied in knots over this issue.

I believe it also good for the electorate to experience firsthand that, apart from "hope" and the promise of new colour passports, the actual realities of leaving with the myriad renegotaions, restructuring and adjusted agreements being left to hapless, jostling career politicians will not result in a quick easy delivery of Nirvana. Reality is somewhat more complex than a few witty Twitter memes.

D.

[Abdul Karim]

Originally Posted by Bibbles

My prep is going fine thanks. I'll be staying in the EU.

Me too.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I agree negotiations with the EU were never going to be easy but there's no doubt in my mind we've made it far more difficult for ourselves by the way we've approached and conducted things. If the other side believes there's still a chance of getting us to change our minds and remain they're bound to have a different attitude from if they know we're definitely going. Mervyn King (a former Governor of the Bank of England) articulated that very point only a few weeks back and personally I agree with him; negotiations were always going to be difficult but the farce we've seen wasn't inevitable - it's just been an unnecessary and avoidable UK own goal.

I agree entirely, the EU are trying very hard not to laugh in public and sometimes the mask slips (Tusk and his [non] cherry picked cakes) An utter farce with all sides seemingly willing to stab everyone else in the front never mind the back.

The level of public discourse has sunk to a new low via the wonderful social media platforms we now inhabit making all rational discussion impossible.

The Labour party are delighted as the Tories seem hell bent on half ruining the country before handing it over, saving them at least 50% of their usual job of totally ruining the country.

The think tanks are just trying to grab as much funding for the next 200 page plan (that backs only the ideas of the people that paid them to write it) which they then squeeze on to a late night slot on This Week only for Brillo to rip it apart in 5 minutes by asking "what about Ireland?" The TV news just want a collapse of someone/something, somewhere so they can have their "Peston" moment.

Meanwhile business confidence in the economy is ebbing away, consumer spending is weakening and we still haven't got a solution to the myriad of issues Brexit proposes.

Yet all anyone can do is call the other side thick.....