[tnord]

I don't know why I'm doing this other than as a PSA, and I feel like there has to be consequences for this kind of bullshit.

First, a bit about me. I'm 41 years old, currently own a 2015 X5 (purchased new), a 2006 330, a 2003 M3, and I sort of own a 2018 340, which is the subject of this saga. I've previously owned a 2001 525, and a 1988 535. I spent maybe 4 summers working detail at dealerships, and 1 year in sales. I raced with SCCA from 2003-2011, and built my own cars. I still do all of my own maintenance work.

Recently, I purchased a 2018 CPO 340i from BMW of Tulsa. However, I live in Kansas City. I put my faith in the CPO process, and trusted the vehicle would be in tip top shape. The salesman told me it was a dent free, scratch free, accident free car. The Carfax was clean. I never saw it in person. The first pictures I saw of it were on May 12th, where there was no major issues I could see.

BMW of Tulsa received payment in full from me on roughly May 18th. A few days later when shipping arrangements weren't made in inquired as to the status of the vehicle. I was then told it was in cleanup and in the body shop for some buffing to slight imperfections in the paint. I knew then it was a bullshit answer, but figured they were just covering up their laziness.

I actually received the vehicle last Sat night, June 4th. I cleaned it up a bit on Sunday June 5th. I noticed a couple weird things on the right rear panel, but went about my business. It was sitting out in the driveway and I was looking it over on Tuesday, and started seeing more and more bad shit going on with this car.

There was overspray on multiple panels. FL fender and hood, window trim, behind the gas flap, and on the trunk. There was bodyshop dust in the door seals (if you've worked in one you know what I mean). There was buffing compound in the RR door seal. There's a kink in the RR door sill. It looked like the seam sealer at the joint in the RR door had been ground off. The gas flap didn't line up. I could see the spots where pins were welded onto the RR panel so it could be pulled (or maybe drilled through and pulled out). THE FUCKING WHEEL ARCH WASN'T EVEN ROUND. The fender liner was separated from the fender, and the pinch weld was all wavy when you ran your fingers underneath.

I'd seen enough. This car had a significant impact and I didn't want it anymore, and didn't even think it should be certified. I called BMW of Tulsa, spoke to my sales rep Tom Eschew, and he blew me off and said to talk to his sales manager, Jason Pierce. I called Jason, and he was quite defensive. He asked for pictures, so I sent him a number of them.

I called BMW the next morning, because I had no faith in BMW of Tulsa. I was assigned a case, and eventually got a call back from them this afternoon, June 9th. I was told by BMW that there was nothing they could do, and it was between me and the dealership.

What. The. Fuck.

Nothing you can do?! I know that's total bullshit. You just think I'll go away so you're not willing to do anything. It's YOUR CPO program. YOU give BMW Tulsa cars to sell. This was a lease return car, that if it wasn't repaired by BMW Tulsa like they say it wasn't, has had unauthorized repairs that wasn't caught by BMW Tulsa or Sewell BMW where I think it was returned.

It's a total failure of your CPO program and you aren't willing to help me at all? Unbelievable.

At this time BMW Tulsa says they'll take the car back, so I'm trying to figure out how to get it there. BUT IT'S JUST GOING TO GO RIGHT BACK ON THE LOT FOR THE NEXT UNSUSPECTING VICTIM.

That's fucking fraud and there needs to be some consequences for it. I don't know where else I'll circulate this, but I'm not done.

non-round wheel arch



underneath the wheel arch, where the fender liner has separated, you can see the wavy/kinked metal.


here's the drivers side arch for comparison;


here's the orange peel paint, of a panel that very clearly has been worked on;


a kink in the door sill, nothing suspicious at all;
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2nqW7j1]

overspray on the front left fender/hood;

[Icarium81]

Wow that's dirty of them.
I will say I've got 2 dings in my door sills, from whatever the previous owner did to it, I'm assuming dropped something weighty or caught a seat belt buckle in the rear one when closing the door.
But yours has definitely seen some war time action and for them to blow you off because it's "not their problem", makes me feel like getting another might not be the best idea.

[tnord]

agreed the kink in the door sill might be nothing. and alone I wouldn't think anything of it, but in the RR door where there are so many other signs of an impact? suspicious.

[YASBBYM3]

Originally Posted by tnord

I don't know why I'm doing this other than as a PSA, and I feel like there has to be consequences for this kind of bullshit.

First, a bit about me. I'm 41 years old, currently own a 2015 X5 (purchased new), a 2006 330, a 2003 M3, and I sort of own a 2018 340, which is the subject of this saga. I've previously owned a 2001 525, and a 1988 535. I spent maybe 4 summers working detail at dealerships, and 1 year in sales. I raced with SCCA from 2003-2011, and built my own cars. I still do all of my own maintenance work.

Recently, I purchased a 2018 CPO 340i from BMW of Tulsa. However, I live in Kansas City. I put my faith in the CPO process, and trusted the vehicle would be in tip top shape. The salesman told me it was a dent free, scratch free, accident free car. The Carfax was clean. I never saw it in person. The first pictures I saw of it were on May 12th, where there was no major issues I could see.

BMW of Tulsa received payment in full from me on roughly May 18th. A few days later when shipping arrangements weren't made in inquired as to the status of the vehicle. I was then told it was in cleanup and in the body shop for some buffing to slight imperfections in the paint. I knew then it was a bullshit answer, but figured they were just covering up their laziness.

I actually received the vehicle last Sat night, June 4th. I cleaned it up a bit on Sunday June 5th. I noticed a couple weird things on the right rear panel, but went about my business. It was sitting out in the driveway and I was looking it over on Tuesday, and started seeing more and more bad shit going on with this car.

There was overspray on multiple panels. FL fender and hood, window trim, behind the gas flap, and on the trunk. There was bodyshop dust in the door seals (if you've worked in one you know what I mean). There was buffing compound in the RR door seal. There's a kink in the RR door sill. It looked like the seam sealer at the joint in the RR door had been ground off. The gas flap didn't line up. I could see the spots where pins were welded onto the RR panel so it could be pulled (or maybe drilled through and pulled out). THE FUCKING WHEEL ARCH WASN'T EVEN ROUND. The fender liner was separated from the fender, and the pinch weld was all wavy when you ran your fingers underneath.

I'd seen enough. This car had a significant impact and I didn't want it anymore, and didn't even think it should be certified. I called BMW of Tulsa, spoke to my sales rep Tom Eschew, and he blew me off and said to talk to his sales manager, Jason Pierce. I called Jason, and he was quite defensive. He asked for pictures, so I sent him a number of them.

I called BMW the next morning, because I had no faith in BMW of Tulsa. I was assigned a case, and eventually got a call back from them this afternoon, June 9th. I was told by BMW that there was nothing they could do, and it was between me and the dealership.

What. The. Fuck.

Nothing you can do?! I know that's total bullshit. You just think I'll go away so you're not willing to do anything. It's YOUR CPO program. YOU give BMW Tulsa cars to sell. This was a lease return car, that if it wasn't repaired by BMW Tulsa like they say it wasn't, has had unauthorized repairs that wasn't caught by BMW Tulsa or Sewell BMW where I think it was returned.

It's a total failure of your CPO program and you aren't willing to help me at all? Unbelievable.

At this time BMW Tulsa says they'll take the car back, so I'm trying to figure out how to get it there. BUT IT'S JUST GOING TO GO RIGHT BACK ON THE LOT FOR THE NEXT UNSUSPECTING VICTIM.

That's fucking fraud and there needs to be some consequences for it. I don't know where else I'll circulate this, but I'm not done.

non-round wheel arch



underneath the wheel arch, where the fender liner has separated, you can see the wavy/kinked metal.


here's the drivers side arch for comparison;


here's the orange peel paint, of a panel that very clearly has been worked on;


a kink in the door sill, nothing suspicious at all;
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2nqW7j1]

overspray on the front left fender/hood;

I feel for you. I had a very bad issue, even worse than yours. You can read about in the M3 F80 Section.

Bottom line. CPO has nothing to do with wrecks, cosmetic issues or body work.

A CPO, the Dealer connects your car up to ISTA, check for any error codes and do a visual inspection of parts that are known to wear out.

I’m surprised you did not know better given the number of vehicles you’ve purchased. That’s why you ALWAYS pay to get a 3rd party to get it on a lift and inspect it.

Again, CPO nothing to do with cosmetics, wrecks or poor repairs. Those are not even covered in the CPO warranty (Did you read it?) And yes, cars in accidents can be CPO’d. That’s why BMW NA told you it was between you and Dealer.

Give it back to them and learn what CPO actually means. Don’t assume.

[Icarium81]

@tnord mine may have been CPO, doubtful, so just for my own curiosity, what does CPO actually cover?

[shoman24v]

From my experience, buying a CPO does not mean you are getting the best car. When someone leases a car new, shit will still go wrong with it over those 2-3 years, and the dealership is not going to miss an opportunity to make more money on a car they already made money on. So what happens? Once the car is returned, they have to make it look like new. And that means, doing repairs. Often, those repairs are cosmetic and they are not high quality since they are trying to maximize profit.

When I bought my CPO 2018 330i, It was listed on the website before it was all cleaned up. If I recall, The car wasn't going to be ready for a few days because it needed work. I asked if any of the work was to fix the body. I was told the door was going to be painted because of damage. I can't find the photos now, but I was sent photos and after seeing them, specifically told them not to fix the door. If they painted the panel, I will not buy it. I did not want another BMW that had paint work. Needless to say, my car has a small dent in the door which bugs me, but I would have been more pissed if I wasn't told about the repair and spotted it when I went to see the car to buy.

What I am trying to say here, is that CPO is not a guarantee of a perfect car, it is really more of an extended warranty. You must take the time to see the car in person. In my case, I drove 3 hours, but ended up with an actually really nice car, except for the dent in the door.

They kind of effed you, but you also didn't look at the car before buying best thing to do is to try and return it.

Edit, here are the pictures: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=51

[tnord]

Originally Posted by YASBBYM3

I feel for you. I had a very bad issue, even worse than yours. You can read about in the M3 F80 Section.

Bottom line. CPO has nothing to do with wrecks, cosmetic issues or body work.

A CPO, the Dealer connects your car up to ISTA, check for any error codes and do a visual inspection of parts that are known to wear out.

I’m surprised you did not know better given the number of vehicles you’ve purchased. That’s why you ALWAYS pay to get a 3rd party to get it on a lift and inspect it.

Again, CPO nothing to do with cosmetics, wrecks or poor repairs. Those are not even covered in the CPO warranty (Did you read it?) And yes, cars in accidents can be CPO’d. That’s why BMW NA told you it was between you and Dealer.

Give it back to them and learn what CPO actually means. Don’t assume.

I would kind of agree with you, except when I was looking at a car in California they told me it couldn't be CPO'd because it had been in a wreck of $5k+ in damage or something. Maybe so, maybe not.

Also, even if this car had a collision and could be CPO'd anyway, it very clearly wasn't correctly repaired. And since it was a lease vehicle prior to me purchasing it, it has to be repaired at a BMW "certified" shop or something right? And even then, when the leased car is returned it has to go through an inspection?

In addition, BMW Tulsa told me the car was free from scratches, dings, etc. Which I haven't even gotten to those yet. Also, the carfax was clean with no accident history. That shouldn't be the case here.

[tnord]

I hear those of you saying it's on me for not looking at the vehicle on my own, or having a 3rd party do it.

But isn't that exactly why you pay the dealership premium over private party? Other than our new X5, I've never bought from a dealership because I was always willing to do the work to have a vehicle inspected. I went the dealer/CPO route this time, perfectly willing to pay the premium for what should have been a solid (not perfect) vehicle and an easy transaction. That didn't happen at all, so if I have to go through all the usual steps to buy a car from Billy Bob, what the hell is the point of the CPO program? It's really just a $3k premium for an extra 1yr warranty?

From the BMW CPO website;

"Before a pre-owned BMW can receive the distinction of being Certified, it has to go through a detailed 360 vehicle inspection......we inspect every vehicle for safety, performance, and wear, down to the subtle details. If it can't be fixed to our standards, it can't be a Certified Pre-Owned BMW?"

So this repair meets their standards?

"After your certified Pre-Owned BMW meets extensive body and mechanical requirements...."

When I was a detailer making $10/hr in high school, no way I would have let this thing go out for delivery like this. At the very least I would have told the service manager and sales rep "hey I need another half day to get all of this overspray off." At that point it's on them.

I just can't buy that this thing passed initial inspection at the body shop that did the repairs, the owner (and dealer?) signed off on those repairs, it passed inspection upon lease return, it passed inspection upon delivery to the new dealership, it passed inspection during CPO process, and it passed inspection for cleanup and delivery.

That plus the collision doesn't show up in carfax tells me this was a deliberate hack job, and basically fraudulent.

What bothers me the most is BMW NA isn't even the slightest bit interested. Nothing along the lines of sending them pictures of the damage, taking it to another BMW dealership to have their bodyshop look at it, scrutinize the history of the vehicle, nothing. Just a total "we don't give a fuck. too bad, so sad" approach.

[toxik]

Originally Posted by YASBBYM3

I feel for you. I had a very bad issue, even worse than yours. You can read about in the M3 F80 Section.

Bottom line. CPO has nothing to do with wrecks, cosmetic issues or body work.

A CPO, the Dealer connects your car up to ISTA, check for any error codes and do a visual inspection of parts that are known to wear out.

I’m surprised you did not know better given the number of vehicles you’ve purchased. That’s why you ALWAYS pay to get a 3rd party to get it on a lift and inspect it.

Again, CPO nothing to do with cosmetics, wrecks or poor repairs. Those are not even covered in the CPO warranty (Did you read it?) And yes, cars in accidents can be CPO’d. That’s why BMW NA told you it was between you and Dealer.

Give it back to them and learn what CPO actually means. Don’t assume.

I don't even think they do that sometimes lol, I'm 99.9% sure my CPO's oil wasnt changed before they got me the car. The oil looked like it hasnt been changed in 10k miles when I did my first oil change, after only like 3k miles of ownership. I think they literally did the lease-return, and put it up for sale, which I bought immediately as I was checking CPO inventory daily on the bmw site. I think they may have washed the car, thats about it.

In my eyes, all you're getting with a CPO is that extra year of warranty... which isn't nothing.

[smrtypants44]

BMW of Tulsa has gone downhill within the last couple of years. I think two years ago all the service advisors quit/got fired and were replaced- and its been a shitshow ever since. Last time I had my car into service (on a sat) I called to see if it was done and was on hold for 20 minutes before hanging up and just going to the dealership...they didn't even have someone to answer the phones while they were open.

[tnord]

Originally Posted by smrtypants44

BMW of Tulsa has gone downhill within the last couple of years. I think two years ago all the service advisors quit/got fired and were replaced- and its been a shitshow ever since. Last time I had my car into service (on a sat) I called to see if it was done and was on hold for 20 minutes before hanging up and just going to the dealership...they didn't even have someone to answer the phones while they were open.

I'm very close to going full scorched earth on these guys for not just the vehicle, but the attitude of both Tom Eschew and Jason Pierce.

But I also feel like I need to wait until I have my money back.

But I also want to figure out a way to make sure the next person isn't screwed. I thought I could do that by way of contacting BMW...but they don't give a shit either.

[capt_slow]

CPO cars need to pass a checklist in order to qualify. This is an older version:

https://www.cars.com/cldstatic/ads/c...inspection.pdf

Demand to see a copy of the checklist for your car and see if there are any disqualifying items that were falsely reported. The obvious ones are body repair history without a referenced repair order or disqualifying activity in the CarFax or AutoCheck report.

[Billfitz]

CPO= We certify that someone else has already owned this car. But, yes, buying a car sight unseen is as dubious as getting a mail order bride.

[tnord]

Originally Posted by capt_slow

CPO cars need to pass a checklist in order to qualify. This is an older version:

https://www.cars.com/cldstatic/ads/c...inspection.pdf

Demand to see a copy of the checklist for your car and see if there are any disqualifying items that were falsely reported. The obvious ones are body repair history without a referenced repair order or disqualifying activity in the CarFax or AutoCheck report.

ahh yes....good call.

I did ask for that checklist prior to purchasing. Here you go.

[leew102]

My cpo 340 also was hiding some damages. I bought it at BMW Greenwich which at the time was 3 hours away from me. The sales guy swore, no cosmetic damages, perfect condition which I believed since it only had 8k miles on it.

When I went to go look at it and to pick it up, it was raining so things looked ok at quick glance. Upon deeper inspection, my whole bumper has been repainted, and not well. A bunch of drips and overspray. There are scratches about 3 inches wide that span from the front fender to the middle of the driver door. Almost like someone drove by some tree branches. The roof had some dents/scratches, from what looked like a tree branch or something falling on it. But because it's white, they are hard to tell unless in the right lighting conditions. A lot of it did bother me at first, but quickly didn't really care since I had gotten such a great deal on the car right as Covid hit and not noticeable in the white. Also, because of the already existing damage, it hurts a little less when I find a new dent.

[clemsonf31]

I had a very similar experience with Vroom and a Volvo V60. It was certainly a lesson learned with >$40k. Hope you’re able to get everything straightened out as much as possible. I had to walk away from tons of time spent on hold on the phone, a useless car sitting in my garage and Vroom holding my money until they scheduled a truck to come pick the car up.
Best of luck

Max

[YASBBYM3]

Originally Posted by tnord

I would kind of agree with you, except when I was looking at a car in California they told me it couldn't be CPO'd because it had been in a wreck of $5k+ in damage or something. Maybe so, maybe not.

Also, even if this car had a collision and could be CPO'd anyway, it very clearly wasn't correctly repaired. And since it was a lease vehicle prior to me purchasing it, it has to be repaired at a BMW "certified" shop or something right? And even then, when the leased car is returned it has to go through an inspection?

In addition, BMW Tulsa told me the car was free from scratches, dings, etc. Which I haven't even gotten to those yet. Also, the carfax was clean with no accident history. That shouldn't be the case here.

No leased cars do NOT have to be repaired at BMW Certified Centers

You are also learning that Carfax is woefully incomplete and often has errors. They recently reported a BMW of mine with 253,000 miles even though it has 240,000 less. I my experiences, I find more incorrect on Carfax than I find correct.

[Maximus92]

This is tragic. But also kind of your own fault. Sorry but buying a car without seeing it with your own eyes, and judging it only from the pictures is crazy, guess that's just USA thing. Also, if you worked on your own cars and been in that business, you really should know all of the shady shit that can happen.

Anyway I hope you return the car and get a full refund.

[F30lolz]

Any updates OP? Will they pick it up for you or you have to drive it/ship it to them on your dime? Willing to get another 340i at another dealership, trust another sight unseen purchase for a CPO? Maybe I missed reading it but did you contact the GM of the dealership for his/her thoughts? I’ve purchased quite a few CPO’s from dealers in NY/NJ/FL and all have been positive.

They clearly misrepresented the vehicle but hopefully in the end they’ll make it right by giving you a full refund and picking up the car.

[pshovest]

Sorry to hear this. I've had good experience w/ (3) CPO'd vehicles, but I was able to inspect all before purchase. (1) was CPO'd for me (2nd owner) and for the other (2) I received the balance of the CPO warranty as the 3rd owner.
Did they give you the complete checklist or only section 3?
I'm curious, are you the 2nd or 3rd owner? It makes a difference.
If you are the 2nd owner then the car would have been CPO'd for you with a rigorous inspection.
If you are the 3rd owner then you are getting the remaining balance of the CPO warranty and a used car inspection.

[tnord]

Originally Posted by F30lolz

Any updates OP? Will they pick it up for you or you have to drive it/ship it to them on your dime? Willing to get another 340i at another dealership, trust another sight unseen purchase for a CPO? Maybe I missed reading it but did you contact the GM of the dealership for his/her thoughts? I’ve purchased quite a few CPO’s from dealers in NY/NJ/FL and all have been positive.

They clearly misrepresented the vehicle but hopefully in the end they’ll make it right by giving you a full refund and picking up the car.

I have to get it to them on my own.

Might be willing to get another 340 at another dealership, but not really willing to pay a premium for it after this.

[tnord]

Originally Posted by Maximus92

This is tragic. But also kind of your own fault. Sorry but buying a car without seeing it with your own eyes, and judging it only from the pictures is crazy, guess that's just USA thing. Also, if you worked on your own cars and been in that business, you really should know all of the shady shit that can happen.

Anyway I hope you return the car and get a full refund.

Yeah, I have been in the business, and the CPO cars that we sold were the nice ones. I've purchased I think 16 vehicles in my life so far, and never encountered anything like this before.

And I'm sorry, but the idea that this is somehow my fault because the dealer is basically commiting fraud is bullshit. Was it in my power to avoid the situation? Absolutely. But my fault? Hell no.

If you can't trust that a leased return CPO vehicle with clean history is in reasonably good condition, then there is absolutely zero point in ever buying a pre owned vehicle from a dealership. And that BMW is basically complicit by their lack of interest in the product and program they administer just makes me not want to buy anything from them ever again.