[devil84]

Thanks Bill.

I am pondering putting these woofers in. Audio Development neo 800. What you think of the spec?? It's not a drop in but will fit with a spacer.

[Billfitz]

It's nothing special at a ridiculous price.

[devil84]

Might give it a go. Hopefully better than the drop ins...

[Billfitz]

They won't work any better than the OEM Hi-Fi woofers. They'll be louder than the OEM H-K because of the lower impedance, but that could stress the amp.

[devil84]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

They won't work any better than the OEM Hi-Fi woofers. They'll be louder than the OEM H-K because of the lower impedance, but that could stress the amp.

i am using an aftermarket amp to power them. probably high pass at 70hz

[Billfitz]

I need to qualify. Without changing the amp settings they'll be louder than the H-K. However, they won't go louder as far as maximum volume is concerned.
I think you're looking for magic speakers. There aren't any, other than in advertising.

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

It's nothing special at a ridiculous price.

Many top custom installers have actually installed, tested and tuned them with a different conclusion. They are highly regarded and well worth it to many that find value in one of the top tested shallow mount 8 inch woofers with a dedicated subwoofer

Have you installed them, tuned a system using them, ever listed and measured a BMW with them installed underseat?

[Billfitz]

Show me the test results.

[devil84]

Originally Posted by GeorgeR

Many top custom installers have actually installed, tested and tuned them with a different conclusion. They are highly regarded and well worth it to many that find value in one of the top tested shallow mount 8 inch woofers with a dedicated subwoofer

Have you installed them, tuned a system using them, ever listed and measured a BMW with them installed underseat?

Nice one that's good to hear. Will be pairing them with a jl audio w3 trunk sub..

[Onizukachan]

If they are $50 or less, give them a shot.

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Show me the test results.

is asking me a question an answer?

[jedi-knight83]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The BMW amp can be improved upon, but not by the AP 8.9 BIT. The Audiotec Fischer Match Up 7BMW is better.

Just re reading through this thread (as I have nothing better to do!)

Can you remember why you made this statement?

I've had the AP F8.9 sitting in my office for 6 months now, finally getting around to fitting it next week.

You still think the up7bmw is better?

[Billfitz]

As I recall the Match Up DSP was better. Having only 7 EQ bands, all of them with fixed frequency centers, is the main shortcoming of the H-K amp.

[jedi-knight83]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

As I recall the Match Up DSP was better. Having only 7 EQ bands, all of them with fixed frequency centers, is the main shortcoming of the H-K amp.

You mean the Audison

Yes I think I've realised that after doing some more research. Wish I'd gone with a Helix DSP and separate Amp now as the Audiotec Fischer software looks more advanced than the Audison.

Oh well.. I'll try the Audison and if I dont get one with it, I'll pop it on eBay

[johnung]

Originally Posted by jedi-knight83

You mean the Audison

Yes I think I've realised that after doing some more research. Wish I'd gone with a Helix DSP and separate Amp now as the Audiotec Fischer software looks more advanced than the Audison.

Oh well.. I'll try the Audison and if I dont get one with it, I'll pop it on eBay

Whenever anyone mentions a replacement amplifier for BMW, I bypass all of the slick marketing and go right to its specifications. So much of the marketing is baloney.

BMW HiFi Audio Environment:
The BMW HiFi Audio environment requires (4) channels to the front and rear doors and a 5th channel to the center channel speaker(s) on top of the dash. (It's simple to add a tweeter because the empty bracket is already right there under the dash top speaker grill.) These (5) channels of power from the replacement amplifier need to be at 4-ohms to match the speakers.

The two underseat subwoofers require power at 2-ohms.

BMW Speakers:
Stock BMW speakers are great. Don't fall for audio retailers con job to sell you replacements that are often cheap overseas made speakers slicked up by marketing. However, the weak point in all three BMW audio systems are the two underseat subwoofers.

The small BMW plastic underseat subwoofer cabinets are too small to move enough air for standard technology subwoofers. So again don't believe slick marketing trying to convince you to spend big money for replacements. You are likely to get overpriced cheap overseas subs that don't really sound appreciably better.

Earthquake SWS-8Xi (2-ohm) subwoofers actually have the improved specifications from being designed for the small BMW cabinets. (Other subs claim to have been designed for BMW but their specs say otherwise) They are only about $129 each and are available from Walmart Online, Amazon and ECS Tuning. Also required is a pair of Earthquake spacer rings ($25/pr) which can be purchased directly from Earthquake Sound if retailers are out of stock.

To sound best, the Earthquake SWS-8Xi require two channels of 150watts per channel into 2-ohms.

Replacement/ Upgrade Amplifiers:
I don't even bother reading the marketing on replacement amplifiers. I go directly to their specifications page.

The Audiotec Fischer Match Up 7BMW is perfectly designed to match the BMW HiFi Audio environment. It's designed like two amplifiers in one. Five channels of 4-ohm power feed the door and dash speakers. Two channels of high power at 2-ohms feed the two underseat subwoofers.

Other amplifiers that are advertised as replacements for BMW are just single amps that don't match the BMW audio environment. There is even a well known BMW audio replacement brand that spends a fortune advertising their replacement amplifier. They even brag that they contracted with Audiotec Fischer to "build it to their specifications." But look at the spec sheet and it's obvious that they paid AF to build a cheap generic amplifier that doesn't even provide the correct power to their own subwoofers. They spent a ton on slick marketing and priced it at or above the Match Up 7BMW amplifier. It's a total ripoff!

Attached are the spec sheets from the Match Up 7BMW amplifier and the Addison Prima 8.9 amplifier. Compare them and it's obvious which amplifier matches the BMW HiFi Audio environment.

Hope this helps!

[jedi-knight83]

Originally Posted by johnung

Whenever anyone mentions a replacement amplifier for BMW, I bypass all of the slick marketing and go right to its specifications. So much of the marketing is baloney.

BMW HiFi Audio Environment:
The BMW HiFi Audio environment requires (4) channels to the front and rear doors and a 5th channel to the center channel speaker(s) on top of the dash. (It's simple to add a tweeter because the empty bracket is already right there under the dash top speaker grill.) These (5) channels of power from the replacement amplifier need to be at 4-ohms to match the speakers.

The two underseat subwoofers require power at 2-ohms.

BMW Speakers:
Stock BMW speakers are great. Don't fall for audio retailers con job to sell you replacements that are often cheap overseas made speakers slicked up by marketing. However, the weak point in all three BMW audio systems are the two underseat subwoofers.

The small BMW plastic underseat subwoofer cabinets are too small to move enough air for standard technology subwoofers. So again don't believe slick marketing trying to convince you to spend big money for replacements. You are likely to get overpriced cheap overseas subs that don't really sound appreciably better.

Earthquake SWS-8Xi (2-ohm) subwoofers actually have the improved specifications from being designed for the small BMW cabinets. (Other subs claim to have been designed for BMW but their specs say otherwise) They are only about $129 each and are available from Walmart Online, Amazon and ECS Tuning. Also required is a pair of Earthquake spacer rings ($25/pr) which can be purchased directly from Earthquake Sound if retailers are out of stock.

To sound best, the Earthquake SWS-8Xi require two channels of 150watts per channel into 2-ohms.

Replacement/ Upgrade Amplifiers:
I don't even bother reading the marketing on replacement amplifiers. I go directly to their specifications page.

The Audiotec Fischer Match Up 7BMW is perfectly designed to match the BMW HiFi Audio environment. It's designed like two amplifiers in one. Five channels of 4-ohm power feed the door and dash speakers. Two channels of high power at 2-ohms feed the two underseat subwoofers.

Other amplifiers that are advertised as replacements for BMW are just single amps that don't match the BMW audio environment. There is even a well known BMW audio replacement brand that spends a fortune advertising their replacement amplifier. They even brag that they contracted with Audiotec Fischer to "build it to their specifications." But look at the spec sheet and it's obvious that they paid AF to build a cheap generic amplifier that doesn't even provide the correct power to their own subwoofers. They spent a ton on slick marketing and priced it at or above the Match Up 7BMW amplifier. It's a total ripoff!

Attached are the spec sheets from the Match Up 7BMW amplifier and the Addison Prima 8.9 amplifier. Compare them and it's obvious which amplifier matches the BMW HiFi Audio environment.

Hope this helps!

Very in depth... but you are forgetting that I've got and tried the up7BMW and although the DSP software is brilliant, I felt the power wasn't actually any improvement over the stock Hi-Fi amp.

Also, I'm not going to be running a centre channel and I actually ended up muting this channel on the up7bmw anyway.

So running the Audison with the under seat's running bridged will give more power to all channels than the up7bmw.


I am however now looking at trying the Helix DSP3 and then running an Audison SR4.300 and an SR4.500 to run the speakers and my 10" JL sub in the boot.

Just ordered an RTA mic as well which I'm looking forward to using to test if my ears are as good as I think they are

[jedi-knight83]

Oh and I'm also going to test re running the up7bmw but with independent power supply rather than taking it from the S676A amp loom which has tiny little wires to see if this gives more power.

If the Audison isn't actually any better then I'll happily ditch it and go another route... but based on the specifications I feel it will be better.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by jedi-knight83

Oh and I'm also going to test re running the up7bmw but with independent power supply rather than taking it from the S676A amp loom which has tiny little wires to see if this gives more power.

If the Audison isn't actually any better then I'll happily ditch it and go another route... but based on the specifications I feel it will be better.

I did not realize that you have a 7BMW amplifier. I'm curious what your configuration was when you tried it? Were all speakers and underseat subs stock- and you just did the plug and play installation?

You mentioned that you have a 10" JL Audio subwoofer in the trunk. Did you connect it to the 7BMW or power it with a secondary amplifier?

Why did you disconnect the center channel on top of the dash? The empty tweeter bracket should be there to add a tweeter to the existing midrange.

[jedi-knight83]

Originally Posted by johnung

I did not realize that you have a 7BMW amplifier. I'm curious what your configuration was when you tried it? Were all speakers and underseat subs stock- and you just did the plug and play installation?

You mentioned that you have a 10" JL Audio subwoofer in the trunk. Did you connect it to the 7BMW or power it with a secondary amplifier?

Why did you disconnect the center channel on top of the dash? The empty tweeter bracket should be there to add a tweeter to the existing midrange.

Rainbow 4" front components
Rainbow 8" underseat
stock rear speakers

My new install will use Focal ES100K front components instead of the Rainbows... again as a test.

Music isn't recorded in 5.1 channel. Its recorded in stereo, so the centre is only playing a mix of the L&R channels and I felt it messed with the imaging. Yes the Up7 mixes it in a clever way and only plays frequencies with are present on the L&R channels so it still separates instruments that are on the left or right... But on balance I felt it sounded better with the centre turned off.

JL10" is powered by a Hertz HCP 1D 300w amp

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by jedi-knight83

You mean the Audison

I meant the H-K. The H-K amp is OK on power, but seven bands of EQ that don't have adjustable frequency centers is piss poor, especially as there are aftermarket DSP EQs with ten band fully adjustable parametric filters that go for less than $200. Unfortunately they won't work with BMW amps without jumping through major installation hoops. IMO if you're going to replace the amp getting the one with the best, and easiest to operate, DSP is key. I looked at the Audison manual. Setting the DSP is a daunting task at best, and I'm a pro-sound engineer. I can't imagine a layman weeding his way through it.

My new install will use Focal ES100K front components instead of the Rainbows... again as a test.

Learn how to use loudspeaker modeling software and understand driver data sheet SPL charts and you'll save a lot of time and money, because you will know the results in advance, without having to experiment. I used to have to actually test samples of drivers when designing a speaker to judge their suitability, all of us in the loudspeaker engineering community did, but that hasn't been the case for twenty years.

[devil84]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I meant the H-K. The H-K amp is OK on power, but seven bands of EQ that don't have adjustable frequency centers is piss poor, especially as there are aftermarket DSP EQs with ten band fully adjustable parametric filters that go for less than $200. Unfortunately they won't work with BMW amps without jumping through major installation hoops. IMO if you're going to replace the amp getting the one with the best, and easiest to operate, DSP is key. I looked at the Audison manual. Setting the DSP is a daunting task at best, and I'm a pro-sound engineer. I can't imagine a layman weeding his way through it.
Learn how to use loudspeaker modeling software and understand driver data sheet SPL charts and you'll save a lot of time and money, because you will know the results in advance, without having to experiment. I used to have to actually test samples of drivers when designing a speaker to judge their suitability, all of us in the loudspeaker engineering community did, but that hasn't been the case for twenty years.

Hi Bill, do you think the focal es100k are better than the audison prima?

I need a new speaker! My passenger HK speaker has blown!

[jedi-knight83]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I meant the H-K. The H-K amp is OK on power, but seven bands of EQ that don't have adjustable frequency centers is piss poor, especially as there are aftermarket DSP EQs with ten band fully adjustable parametric filters that go for less than $200. Unfortunately they won't work with BMW amps without jumping through major installation hoops. IMO if you're going to replace the amp getting the one with the best, and easiest to operate, DSP is key. I looked at the Audison manual. Setting the DSP is a daunting task at best, and I'm a pro-sound engineer. I can't imagine a layman weeding his way through it.
Learn how to use loudspeaker modeling software and understand driver data sheet SPL charts and you'll save a lot of time and money, because you will know the results in advance, without having to experiment. I used to have to actually test samples of drivers when designing a speaker to judge their suitability, all of us in the loudspeaker engineering community did, but that hasn't been the case for twenty years.

The Audiotec Fischer software wasn't exactly straight forwards and I managed with that. I'm sure I'll be ok with the Audison. But it looks like there isn't full 30 band EQ adjustment (which I thought was what you were referring to earlier).

I'd love to learn more about the speaker modelling. I'm actually a bit dyslexic though and it takes me a long time to pick up new skills so sometimes easier for me to just buy the speakers to try. I can always sell them again.

I've actually got the ES100K in my M4 as well (they were already in when I bought it along with a simple non DSP 4ch amp) and they do sound lovely. So I'm looking forward to trying them back to back with my rainbows and also testing them both with the new RTA mic. I know the Focals dont go quite as low as the Rainbows but I was crossing the subs to mids at 140Hz anyway which is within the limits of the focals

I'm also tempted to try a full active set up and get rid of the focal passive crossovers