[Wills2]

Originally Posted by PaulT_335i

Wow indeed

Another;

http://usedcars.bmw.co.uk/M/3.0-s/s/...cmdc=se_na_re_

51k

[PaulT_M5]

I've driven about 300 miles today between dealers and test driving cars.

So much has been written about both the M3 and M5, I think a summary is probably all I need...

M5: Comfortable, lots of "toys" and amazing performance. Definitely belies its size. My only criticism is that I think to exploit the performance on offer and bring that driving enjoyment I'm craving for, you're really in licence losing territory. For example, you drive through a village at 30, get to the national speed limit sign the other side, put your foot down and before you've blinked you're doing the speed limit. If you don't have the limiter set it would, hypothetically, be very easy to exceed the speed limit by a significant amount without even realising it until you look at the speedo, HUD notwithstanding which I managed not to see most of the time as I'm not used to having it.

M3 LCI: Great dynamic ability and manages to put a smile on your face at legal speeds. Comfort is definitely comfortable, great for the daily 5 mile commute in "town" traffic, sport+ is exciting when you go out for a drive, just because you can. However, the road noise on anything less than perfectly smooth roads is annoying, so when you're actually going anywhere meaningful it would really annoy me - the F30 annoys me with its road noise intrusion, but it felt virtually silent after driving the M3 until I'd got back used to it again.

I don't see any point in my drives tomorrow, so have cancelled them.

So, the car I want doesn't seem to exist. I want the refinement of the M5, but with driving abilities of the M3 - and need 4 doors/5 seats and nothing smaller than the F30. Suggestions on a postcard as to what to look at next?

[GBR1]

Originally Posted by PaulT_335i

So, the car I want doesn't seem to exist. I want the refinement of the M5, but with driving abilities of the M3 - and need 4 doors/5 seats and nothing smaller than the F30. Suggestions on a postcard as to what to look at next?

Have you looked at a Macan Turbo or GTS, expensive to buy but depreciation is a fraction of an M5!

GBR1

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by PaulT_335i

I've driven about 300 miles today between dealers and test driving cars.

So much has been written about both the M3 and M5, I think a summary is probably all I need...

M5: Comfortable, lots of "toys" and amazing performance. Definitely belies its size. My only criticism is that I think to exploit the performance on offer and bring that driving enjoyment I'm craving for, you're really in licence losing territory. For example, you drive through a village at 30, get to the national speed limit sign the other side, put your foot down and before you've blinked you're doing the speed limit. If you don't have the limiter set it would, hypothetically, be very easy to exceed the speed limit by a significant amount without even realising it until you look at the speedo, HUD notwithstanding which I managed not to see most of the time as I'm not used to having it.

M3 LCI: Great dynamic ability and manages to put a smile on your face at legal speeds. Comfort is definitely comfortable, great for the daily 5 mile commute in "town" traffic, sport+ is exciting when you go out for a drive, just because you can. However, the road noise on anything less than perfectly smooth roads is annoying, so when you're actually going anywhere meaningful it would really annoy me - the F30 annoys me with its road noise intrusion, but it felt virtually silent after driving the M3 until I'd got back used to it again.

I don't see any point in my drives tomorrow, so have cancelled them.

So, the car I want doesn't seem to exist. I want the refinement of the M5, but with driving abilities of the M3 - and need 4 doors/5 seats and nothing smaller than the F30. Suggestions on a postcard as to what to look at next?

Can't disagree with any of that, you've got the M5 down to a T, my car has gone back to standard today and driving on the bypass, just cruising when my speed warning sounded as I passed 92mph without even thinking, its so capable perhaps too capable for its own good.

The M3 is a go cart in comparison, will be interesting how much I miss the M5 refinement and whether I enjoy the sporty feel of the m3 enough to cope with that loss of refinement.

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by PaulT_335i

I've driven about 300 miles today between dealers and test driving cars.

So much has been written about both the M3 and M5, I think a summary is probably all I need...

M5: Comfortable, lots of "toys" and amazing performance. Definitely belies its size. My only criticism is that I think to exploit the performance on offer and bring that driving enjoyment I'm craving for, you're really in licence losing territory. For example, you drive through a village at 30, get to the national speed limit sign the other side, put your foot down and before you've blinked you're doing the speed limit. If you don't have the limiter set it would, hypothetically, be very easy to exceed the speed limit by a significant amount without even realising it until you look at the speedo, HUD notwithstanding which I managed not to see most of the time as I'm not used to having it.

M3 LCI: Great dynamic ability and manages to put a smile on your face at legal speeds. Comfort is definitely comfortable, great for the daily 5 mile commute in "town" traffic, sport+ is exciting when you go out for a drive, just because you can. However, the road noise on anything less than perfectly smooth roads is annoying, so when you're actually going anywhere meaningful it would really annoy me - the F30 annoys me with its road noise intrusion, but it felt virtually silent after driving the M3 until I'd got back used to it again.

I don't see any point in my drives tomorrow, so have cancelled them.

So, the car I want doesn't seem to exist. I want the refinement of the M5, but with driving abilities of the M3 - and need 4 doors/5 seats and nothing smaller than the F30. Suggestions on a postcard as to what to look at next?

So you are completely discounting an M3 due to the road noise? Is it really that bad?
I guess one needs to realise you are buying a sports car rather than a family saloon (meaning the F3x), so comprises need to be made?

[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by dopper99

So you are completely discounting an M3 due to the road noise? Is it really that bad?
I guess one needs to realise you are buying a sports car rather than a family saloon (meaning the F3x), so comprises need to be made?

Hit the nail on the head Andy - always going to be compromises. I came from a 750i to the 335d. The lack of pampering was hard to contain in the F30 but trade off was a much more chuckable (albeit bloody awful as standard) car.

M3 WILL be noisier. No bushes on back and bigger tyres. If you're comparing with M5, it's a big difference but then they really are different cars for different purposes.

There will ALWAYS be compromises and the question is really what are your priorities and then choose accordingly.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by gtsussex

M3 WILL be noisier. No bushes on back and bigger tyres. If you're comparing with M5, it's a big difference but then they really are different cars for different purposes.

Oddly enough the M5 has no rear bushes either, body bolted directly on to the subframe and wider tyres than the m3.

Having removed the ACS bits from the car today, it certainly felt softer than before and far quieter, although it's all relative my 335d xdrive felt like a soft bloated pudding compared to a stock M5 and of course the M3 is another step on from that.

[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Oddly enough the M5 has no rear bushes either, body bolted directly on to the subframe and wider tyres than the m3.

Having removed the ACS bits from the car today, it certainly felt softer than before and far quieter, although it's all relative my 335d xdrive felt like a soft bloated pudding compared to a stock M5 and of course the M3 is another step on from that.

Yup but there's more sound insulation in the M5 surely Neil? Certainly the M5, as you well know, is quieter.

335d as standard is truly awful - like your description!

[Wills2]

Yep absolutely Guy, it's the sound insulation and the additional 300kg that makes the difference and isolates the M5.

But I have to remember I've not driven an LCI M3 yet so I hope you're right!

[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Yep absolutely Guy, it's the sound insulation and the additional 300kg that makes the difference and isolates the M5.

But I have to remember I've not driven an LCI M3 yet so I hope you're right!

Will look forward to your thoughts... Just don't expect high speed refinement. There are trade offs though

[PaulT_M5]

Neil and Guy, I think you've both highlighted my problem in that I'm unrealistically expecting to have my cake and eat it.

Worse still, I think I've actually hyped the M5 up in my head to more than it ever can be, so it will only ever be a disappointment now. I'm now expecting Caterham levels of excitement with luxury and refinement in a usable everyday package.

Driving the M5 80+ miles on local roads I know well brought a smile to my face, but the dealer couldn’t discuss numbers when we got back as they had a handover to attend to, so I then had time to think about it and couldn’t get man-maths to justify buying one. All subsequent drives in the M5 have been at dealers nowhere near me on unfamiliar roads and I honestly believe there is no substitute to driving the cars on roads you know as you have a common basis for comparison.

I drove a pre-LCI M3 about 20 miles on my own route covering some of the best local country lanes that I drive my kit car on. This really brought a smile to my face. Dynamically, the M3 was easily a match for the kit car and has the practicality. It was just lacking the refinement and I thought it had more road noise than the 335i, especially on the dual-carriageway section I drove on which the 335i is virtually silent on.

I think I’ve come to the conclusion that a large contributor to the “excitement” factor is the noise. You get that in spades in the M3, but the M5 is so well isolated that it feels somewhat less exciting even though, in reality, it probably isn’t.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by PaulT_335i

M3 LCI: However, the road noise on anything less than perfectly smooth roads is annoying, so when you're actually going anywhere meaningful it would really annoy me - the F30 annoys me with its road noise intrusion, but it felt virtually silent after driving the M3 until I'd got back used to it again.

Is your F30 on run-flats? My F31 had lots of road noise on the factory-fit Bridgestone run-flats but a recent switch to conventional Goodyear AS2's has improved things significantly. However, if you're saying an F80 M3 generates more road noise than an F30 on run-flats I can see why you'd find that obtrusive; must be bloody awful if it's worse than my F31 was on the Bridgestones!

[PaulT_M5]

My F30 is on 19" run-flats. The F80 was on 19" non run-flats.

The roof is thin carbon fibre and I suspect there is less sound deadening than even the F30 to keep the weight down, but as Neil or Guy mentioned previously, the back end is bolted directly to the car, rather than via big rubber bushes. This in itself introduces extra noise.

I've gone leftfield this morning and driven a year old XFR. With the drivers seat set right for my driving position, getting in the back highlights there is very little room. My head wasn't far off the ceiling and my knees were touching the back of the drivers seat. In the F10 M5, F30 and F80, there is a good amount of clearance behind the drivers seat for me. Size wise, externally it may be the same size as an M5, but internally there seems to be less space.

What the XFR did have was noise, not some stereo pumped version, but proper V8 noise. Even in standard mode, push the accelerator and you got the engine noise which made you feel like you were going quicker. It wasn't any quicker than the M5, just sounded like it was.

I couldn't get an XFR because the whole "infotainment" system feels older than my basic TomTom that I've had for more years than I can remember.


As I alluded to earlier, I wondered if that was what is missing in the M5, you're too isolated from the real noise of the engine, and my experiment this morning certainly points to that being the case.

So what I need is an M5, Akra exhaust and downpipes, let's see what MrsT_335i thinks of me getting the car then spending another 10k on an exhaust and "upgrades"

[Wills2]

The stock M5 is very quiet as you say and noise adds to/is the drama most of the time.

Have you thought about a Panamera S or GTS? The older n/a V8 one?

http://www.romansinternational.com/c...e-panamera-gts

or perhaps the e63s that has all the sound you'll ever need!

[PaulT_M5]

Iv'e just been trying to explain it to my wife and her summary is:

"You want a quieter car that is noisy".... erm yes I do.

I'm wondering whether CG Precision do a valve controller that works with the M5, then I could get the best of both worlds.

[Kal101]

Originally Posted by PaulT_335i

I've driven about 300 miles today between dealers and test driving cars.

So much has been written about both the M3 and M5, I think a summary is probably all I need...

M5: Comfortable, lots of "toys" and amazing performance. Definitely belies its size. My only criticism is that I think to exploit the performance on offer and bring that driving enjoyment I'm craving for, you're really in licence losing territory. For example, you drive through a village at 30, get to the national speed limit sign the other side, put your foot down and before you've blinked you're doing the speed limit. If you don't have the limiter set it would, hypothetically, be very easy to exceed the speed limit by a significant amount without even realising it until you look at the speedo, HUD notwithstanding which I managed not to see most of the time as I'm not used to having it.

M3 LCI: Great dynamic ability and manages to put a smile on your face at legal speeds. Comfort is definitely comfortable, great for the daily 5 mile commute in "town" traffic, sport+ is exciting when you go out for a drive, just because you can. However, the road noise on anything less than perfectly smooth roads is annoying, so when you're actually going anywhere meaningful it would really annoy me - the F30 annoys me with its road noise intrusion, but it felt virtually silent after driving the M3 until I'd got back used to it again.

I don't see any point in my drives tomorrow, so have cancelled them.

So, the car I want doesn't seem to exist. I want the refinement of the M5, but with driving abilities of the M3 - and need 4 doors/5 seats and nothing smaller than the F30. Suggestions on a postcard as to what to look at next?

Just a quick query If I may. Is it the engine noise or lack of refinement that put you off the m3. Have to admit when I drove one didn't notice any general issues with refinement but did find the engine noise to be quite intrusive especially in m1 mode. This was done to the actuator and believe this can be coded out .

Think mark G335 coded his f30 to sound like an m3

[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by Kal001

Just a quick query If I may. Is it the engine noise or lack of refinement that put you off the m3. Have to admit when I drove one didn't notice any general issues with refinement but did find the engine noise to be quite intrusive especially in m1 mode. This was done to the actuator and believe this can be coded out .

Think mark G335 coded his f30 to sound like an m3

I coded my f30 to M3 settings. Was good for a while and definitely drove faster because of it! However it was noisy and car was much more refined once turned off. To be honest, I shall be coding out the ASD when I get my M3 - I just don't think it adds anything and pretty much every owner that has turned it off has kept it that way. Tried it on demo I borrowed unplugging (as had HK system so can do in boot). Takes away that engine noise intrusion and actually sounds so much more natural. Not quite sure why BMW bothered.

[Chris Peacock]

Saw a YMB M3 parked up earlier today with a few tasty carbon parts fitted, even the wife commented on how nice it looked

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Chris Peacock

Saw a YMB M3 parked up earlier today with a few tasty carbon parts fitted, even the wife commented on how nice it looked

Use that one moment of weakness against her....she has practically green lighted the car right there, go, go, go.

[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by Chris10Bimmers

Use that one moment of weakness against her....she has practically green lighted the car right there, go, go, go.

Ha ha! Precisely what I was thinking!!! You don't get a better excuse than that....

[basto]

I hate this forum, this thread and the other M car ones have got me spending far too much time researching M cars for when I next upgrade (at least 3 years from now!!!) haha.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by gtsussex

Ha ha! Precisely what I was thinking!!! You don't get a better excuse than that....

I haven't told Mrs Wills yet, but what she makes of my carbon trim in its box on the kitchen table and all the boxes for the exhaust and springs in the garage I don't know.

Friday afternoon:

What's that? Another new car? Errrr....yeah, I've gone to a 3 series to keep costs down....