[TodmordenLad]

Got to feel bad for JLR as a UK based business employing 000's of Brits.
That said, the range is too limited, IMO, with an over dependency on diesel and SUVs, not to mention their reputation for unreliability.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46045334

[JD6]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Got to feel bad for JLR as a UK based business employing 000's of Brits.
That said, the range is too limited, IMO, with an over dependency on diesel and SUVs, not to mention their reputation for reliability.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46045334

I can understand why Jaguar is having a hard time with its range of mediocre saloons, but the Land Rover brands are a different matter. Someone posted a finance example recently showing the Velar retains an incredible 70% of its value after 4 years. It probably takes 4 months for a BMW to reach the same point!

If demand is that high, surely they could increase sales volume with some pretty modest discounting, and keep the factories running...

[Wills2]

That 70% GFV is a made up number that JLR will be on the hook for, it allows them to offer a cheap monthly without offering an upfront discount.

It has nothing to do with the actual value of a 4 year old velar at trade, they're not selling demand is soft but they either can't or won't offer large discounts so they are pushing that can down the road by underwriting a large GFV.

[creepy coupe]

Too many diesels. Too unreliable. Too expensive. No low end models.

[Steve_M_Sport]

Bentley aren't in a great shape either

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...hock-d7hs0lcw0

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by Steve_M_Sport

Bentley aren't in a great shape either

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...hock-d7hs0lcw0

I'd imagine most of that loss was the pig ugly Bentaga.

[Wills2]

As a real world example on the Velar, a friend has a D240 R dynamic SE 2 months old with 400 miles miles and it's on his forecourt for 53k against a list of 68k the trade value is 50k. That's a retained value of around 73% after 2 months.

What I will say is it's lovely inside and out, I really like it but he's had no interest in it.

[creepy coupe]

BMW saw this coming many years ago,. when they only produced a few models. 3-5-6 7 series. That's why they have diluted the brand with soo many models now. To survive.

[davyk31]

Not so sure the current BMW business model is one to admire. They are having to offer huge discounts to win sales which is ruining residuals. Non savvy customers buying with a smaller than ought to be discount are being hit hard when they come to change due to the massive depreciation. Some will stay loyal, some will leave to other brands while others will decide the cost to change is too high and keep their current car thus reducing sales for BMW. Short term approach to move metal seems their current aim.

[takumichinoku]

Be interested to know Land Rover without the Jaguar figures. Their discounts are nowhere near bmw levels and they need the sales.

Bmw are just a juggernaut regarding volume and stacking them high and flogging them cheap. Out of the premium makes I think their used car values are shocking! Cheapens the brand because they just lose so much money because of the discounts available which then affects the residuals. I’m a fanboy and I’m struggling to justify sticking to the brand for my next car especially when spending so much!

[NotGotABimmer23]

Originally Posted by davyk31

Not so sure the current BMW business model is one to admire. They are having to offer huge discounts to win sales which is ruining residuals. Non savvy customers buying with a smaller than ought to be discount are being hit hard when they come to change due to the massive depreciation. Some will stay loyal, some will leave to other brands while others will decide the cost to change is too high and keep their current car thus reducing sales for BMW. Short term approach to move metal seems their current aim.

Its been happening for years, not sure it's a short term approach.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Wills2

That 70% GFV is a made up number that JLR will be on the hook for, it allows them to offer a cheap monthly without offering an upfront discount.

It has nothing to do with the actual value of a 4 year old velar at trade, they're not selling demand is soft but they either can't or won't offer large discounts so they are pushing that can down the road by underwriting a large GFV.

That’s interesting. I wonder whether the inevitable loss (or deferred discount) when the car is handed back is covered within the accounts. That could be a pretty large black hole given the number of cars on finance if it isn’t.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by takumichinoku

Bmw are just a juggernaut regarding volume and stacking them high and flogging them cheap. Out of the premium makes I think their used car values are shocking! Cheapens the brand because they just lose so much money because of the discounts available which then affects the residuals. I’m a fanboy and I’m struggling to justify sticking to the brand for my next car especially when spending so much!

I think you can work this approach to your advantage if you buy a BMW at a deep discount (either new or used) and hang on the the car until it’s about 6 years old. At that age BMWs seem to be worth about the same as equivalent cars from a different brand, as used buyers are more open to alternatives.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by JD6

That’s interesting. I wonder whether the inevitable loss (or deferred discount) when the car is handed back is covered within the accounts. That could be a pretty large black hole given the number of cars on finance if it isn’t.

There was a piece on Tesla recently where the vehicle funders had required it to up their underwriting on the GFV basically they think there is too much fresh air in the deal and they wouldn't be able to recover on the asset either during or at the end of the agreement.

That's why BMWs approach works better, give a great big discount at the start and offer low GFVs that they can recycle through BCA or dealer network at the end.

No one is going to bid 70% of the list on a 4 year old velar at trade so you have a delta that JLR will have to cover, even if like BMWFS they are using "their own money" that money comes from the money market so at some point the clock has to go to zero.

You could say that BMW bring forward the "loss" in the discount and JLR are deferring the "loss"

It's the same cake which ever way you slice it

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

I was in a supplier last week in Birmingham that makes bumpers for Land Rover and Jaguar. They were suffering from a short notice shutdown, factory closed, but everyone still getting paid, plus a load of fixed costs being picked up. Not great for a number of businesses, not just JLR.

I think JLR design on all fronts is getting a bit crap. They think it's all down to diesel and they're blaming the government for demonising it. But they fail to recognise that their line up in getting worse. The new full size Discovery is a monstrous thing and isn't selling anything like it's predecessor. The Velar is a real marmite car, I think it looks really weird, and as others have said, the Jaguar saloons are a disappointment.

[davyk31]

Was their success ever really justified. The range was nothing special with very dodgy reliability and poor dealers. People aspired to their Range Rover Sports then found they weren't as great as expected.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

I'd imagine most of that loss was the pig ugly Bentaga.

What a truely terrible car that is.
Most vehicles I can appreciate some redeeming features. Ok I guess the interior is excellent. I wouldn't be able to get over the knowledge that it's a £200k, and uglier, VW SUV.

[TouringPleb]

With Land Rover the Evoque is old now and coming to the end of its life. The Range Rover is getting old now. RR Sport has had its face lift so that's getting towards the end of its life. I think they've fucked up royally with the new Disco. The Velar is very spec dependant in terms of colour and big wheels etc.

There isn't a single Jaguar I'd consider. They've made a major mistake with the XE and XF in how conservative (dull) they are. The E-Pace looks strangely proportioned. The F-Pace is also starting to look old and again needs big wheels, body kit etc to look half decent. The F-Type is way too heavy and expensive.

Doesn't bode well for them I think

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by TouringPleb

With Land Rover the Evoque is old now and coming to the end of its life. The Range Rover is getting old now. RR Sport has had its face lift so that's getting towards the end of its life. I think they've fucked up royally with the new Disco. The Velar is very spec dependant in terms of colour and big wheels etc.

There isn't a single Jaguar I'd consider. They've made a major mistake with the XE and XF in how conservative (dull) they are. The E-Pace looks strangely proportioned. The F-Pace is also starting to look old and again needs big wheels, body kit etc to look half decent. The F-Type is way too heavy and expensive.

Doesn't bode well for them I think

Agree with pretty much all of that. Why they destroyed the discovery is a mystery. They made the front a RRS clone - why, it shouldn't be - and just an utter pigs ear of the back. How anyone signed off the rear design beggars belief.

XE and XF so utterly predictable and bland.

The Velar answers a question that surely no-one was asking. Should have spent the money on giving the F-pace a decent interior and left that to fill the gap between Evoque and RRS.

Even at almost five years old, I still think the RRS is a brilliant product and it sells itself when you drive it. Which is backed up by the fact that dealers seem to be able to ask almost list prices for MY18s (facelifts) vs. the Velars hanging around like a bad smell.

[creepy coupe]

If you look at the i Pace against the rest of the market. Such as Tesla. i think it could do well.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by creepy coupe

If you look at the i Pace against the rest of the market. Such as Tesla. i think it could do well.

Good point. They've got ahead of the mainstream game a little bit there.

Hope they do well. As said above, huge employer in this country. We need the likes of JLR, Honda, Toyota, Nissan to do well.

[RENT-A-GOAT]

JLR also has not been helping itself by employing huge numbers of contract staff some on 2/3x that of a fixed position salary all well and good but no where near a sustainable business model. That's before adding non premium build quality cars at premium prices with often woeful aftercare & above average servicing/repair costs. It's a bubble which is only going to burst. But as its such a small part of TATA will they actually give a shit what happens to their pet project who knows.